Making a Thai Will

[beau thai]

A morbid topic that, maybe in common with many, I have been putting off for some time now.  But having watched the families of a few friends who passed away really struggling to sort out the affairs of the deceased, I figured I should grip this up.

 

One, a Brit  in Spain died unexpectedly-no access to his computer (password?), no one knew if he rented or owned his condo, no one knew his bank details etc etc.

Another, fairly wealthy Brit living in Philippines.  So far, his family have incurred legal costs of over 100k GBP fighting claims from his wife/gf's family.

 

So my uk executor, a family member, is pleading with me not only to have a uk Will (all done), but also to prepare a 'dying tidily' list of user names/passwords, banks/pension company/insurer/embassy contacts etc etc.  Boring stuff but should be done I guess.

 

So, a part of that 'set' is a simple thai Will, with, in my case, a single beneficiary of my simple thai assets :property, bank accounts, vehicle.

 

Just had a lawyer quote me 15k baht which I believe is excessive. So seeking alternatives. And conscious that as situations, families and assets change, so should Wills- and I spoke with one lawyer here who charges the same for amendments as for the initial Will. (nice work if you can get it). So I dont want to kick off with a high cost Will and be on a treadmill.

 

There is a Legal Firm doing online packages @ 740Baht which is an option. But before going down that route I thought I would try reaching out to see if some are willing to share their recent experiences - good or bad- with Online, Local Lawyers or DIY Thai Wills.

 

And while on this subject, I recommend having a Living Will, for which the documents are available on line, which, depending on the doctor, may avoid an unnecessarily long semi- or un conscious stay in hospital, full of tubes, when early departure would be your preferred option.

 

 

[HullyGully]

I think its better to have 2 wills

 

One for Thai assets and one for your home country

[bkk6060]

No morbid but the truth.  We all are going to die why not be responsible about it.I just used a template from online a few years back.  I think it was around the same price you are quoting.  

 

But, you would be surprised how many here own property, cars, motorbikes, 800,000 + in the bank and have absolutely no will or documented means to dispose of it.  It all seems very irresponsible as most of us have family in other countries who will be left holding a bag of S... trying to deal with the government entities here.

[Peter Denis]

A link to a site with some valuable information on  making a will in Thailand.

> https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/forms-of-wills-under-thai-law.html

Especially #1 is of interest  > The most common last will and testament in Thailand is a last will in writing, dated at the time of making and signed by the testator in the presence of at least 2 witnesses who sign their names to certify the signature of the testator (section 1656 of the Civil and Commercial Code). It is not required that such a will is notarized or registered for it to be a valid legal will.

So this can be done almost on the spot, and it will at least ensure that your wishes will be respected within the boundaries of the law.

That last part is important, because many people think that a will should take into consideration all legal aspects to make it valid and requires a lawyer which is costly/difficult they refrain from doing it, which is a pity because that is NOT necessary at all. 

You can simply write how you want your possessions to be dealt with after you die, not taking into consideration family, legal considerations or whatever.  If you simply write > I want that EVERYTHING I have goes to my girlfriend XY,

that is a FULLY VALID will (when signed in the presence of the 2 witnesses).  And it will then be executed according to your will BUT within the legal boundaries.  If you have next of kin, they will still get the lion-share of your possessions (if you did not legally dis-inherit them earlier), but your girlfriend will get the maximum possible under the law.

[HullyGully]

With reference to the above, you need to think through  how the asset you hold would be distributed 

 

I am married, so we have joint accounts with one of us being able to sign

 

If the banks know you have died, they will freeze the account until probate has been approved

 

In Thailand as in other countries the will will need to go through probate and here in Thailand that's the start of expensive costs and IHT in other countries

[1FinickyOne]

I have a Will and executor in USA but I have assets here too. 

 

My wife does not speak English and I want an easy transition... [pills and liquor?] 

 

I had a package of three docs... power of attny of my assets here [in case in hospital] healthcare and general Will... the cost for all 3 at a very respectable/decent lawyer was abt 10,000 baht... in English and Thai... 

 

I keep all documents in a safe w/a list of assets and how to locate them along with contacts in USA... I have left the phone number of the lawyer here as the contact for my wife as I trust he will take care of making the contacts in USA... 

 

A lawyer I would highly recommend if you want to PM me.

 

 

You know - it doesn't take long and offers peace of mind. 

 

.. 

[Mapguy]

Caution!  Template wills are not advised nor necessarily immediately accepted. For example, when a will is probated there can be consideration of the inheritance laws of Thailand and the courts concerns for recognising the rights of relatives abroad, such as children.

 

Otherwise, yes, there should be wills for each country in which there are assets --- and which don't contradict each other in any way.

 

And, yes, certainly an executor (who preferably should be younger) needs a lot of practical information about assets and last wishes.

 

It might seem expensive, but a solid will is absolutely preferable to difficulties and expenses with probate.

[beau thai]

21 hours ago, kenk24 said:

I have a Will and executor in USA but I have assets here too. 

 

My wife does not speak English and I want an easy transition... [pills and liquor?] 

 

I had a package of three docs... power of attny of my assets here [in case in hospital] healthcare and general Will... the cost for all 3 at a very respectable/decent lawyer was abt 10,000 baht... in English and Thai... 

 

I keep all documents in a safe w/a list of assets and how to locate them along with contacts in USA... I have left the phone number of the lawyer here as the contact for my wife as I trust he will take care of making the contacts in USA... 

 

A lawyer I would highly recommend if you want to PM me.

 

 

You know - it doesn't take long and offers peace of mind. 

 

.. 

PM sent

[Rama]

This is an often misunderstood aspect and Thai lawyers are either unaware of or willing to exploit - depending on the individual lawyer. Foreign Wills are honored in Thai probate courts. If you do a Will here and have one in your home country, your heirs in both countries can contest the other Wills. The best solution is to amend your existing Will in your home country making provisions for what is to be done with your thai assets. You can then give a copy of the Will to a responsible person here that you want to have a copy of it here.

 

Unless you believe that heirs never fight over Wills.

[beau thai]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:06 PM, Peter Denis said:

A link to a site with some valuable information on  making a will in Thailand.

> https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/forms-of-wills-under-thai-law.html

Especially #1 is of interest  > The most common last will and testament in Thailand is a last will in writing, dated at the time of making and signed by the testator in the presence of at least 2 witnesses who sign their names to certify the signature of the testator (section 1656 of the Civil and Commercial Code). It is not required that such a will is notarized or registered for it to be a valid legal will.

So this can be done almost on the spot, and it will at least ensure that your wishes will be respected within the boundaries of the law.

That last part is important, because many people think that a will should take into consideration all legal aspects to make it valid and requires a lawyer which is costly/difficult they refrain from doing it, which is a pity because that is NOT necessary at all. 

You can simply write how you want your possessions to be dealt with after you die, not taking into consideration family, legal considerations or whatever.  If you simply write > I want that EVERYTHING I have goes to my girlfriend XY,

that is a FULLY VALID will (when signed in the presence of the 2 witnesses).  And it will then be executed according to your will BUT within the legal boundaries.  If you have next of kin, they will still get the lion-share of your possessions (if you did not legally dis-inherit them earlier), but your girlfriend will get the maximum possible under the law.

Thank you. very useful

[JimGant]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:09 PM, HullyGully said:

I am married, so we have joint accounts with one of us being able to sign

 

If the banks know you have died, they will freeze the account until probate has been approved

Were you implying that your joint account would also be frozen?

[fangless]

Does anyone know where to get a blank/template Thai/English will form?

[Peter Denis]

36 minutes ago, fangless said:

Does anyone know where to get a blank/template Thai/English will form?

 

The link quoted in my post #10

https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/forms-of-wills-under-thai-law.html

features a link at the bottom to order a Last Will package (including english language template), but the package costs 20 US $.

Probably someone that ordered that package might share it with you.

Note: I would be interested too...

 

[fangless]

6 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Probably someone that ordered that package might share it with you.

Note: I would be interested too...

 

That is what I was also hoping for!

[jonwilly]

I live in Chiang mai. 

I have a will in UK for my UK assets.

I have a will made in CM for my Thai assets.

I made use of a local Visa agent. My Thai will is lodged at the local Ampure in accordance with Thai rules. Two of the solicitors who made out my will accompanied me to the Ampure to lodge my will in accordance with the Ampure officials instructions.

 

john

[Trujillo]

The number of topics about making a will in Thailand has to number in the dozens by now, or more. 

[fangless]

17 hours ago, Trujillo said:

The number of topics about making a will in Thailand has to number in the dozens by now, or more. 

So how does your post help improve the topic?

I and some others have asked some questions here and are hoping for some positive and helpful responses which do not appear to have been forthcoming in the "dozens" of topics you refer to.

 

Maybe if the TV search function worked as it used to we would not need such multiple duplicate topics.

[Peter Denis]

1 minute ago, fangless said:

...

Maybe if the TV search function worked as it used to we would not need such multiple duplicate topics.

The ThaiVisa Forum search function is absolutely worthless, and should be scrapped from the Forum as it gives the false impression that the topic you are looking for is not covered in earlier threads.

And there is an easy and perfectly working alternative > Google

Just type ThaiVisa or ThaiVisa.com, followed by your search term and it will provide you with a looooong list of hits for the topic you are interested in.

[JimGant]

On 9/30/2020 at 2:56 PM, Trujillo said:

The number of topics about making a will in Thailand has to number in the dozens by now, or more. 

Indeed, and nothing substantive comes from them, probably because nobody has reached the probate part of all the questions being asked in these threads.

 

For most of us farangs here, reading this, our primary asset is our bank account (our lady owns the land, the car, other registered assets, so we needn't worry about these in our Will). But, our bank account, particularly the 800k model used for annual extensions, is of primary concern (because it's solely owned). So, yeah, make sure it's listed in your Will, should the wife need to go through probate (but she probably won't need to -- read on).

 

And joint accounts? Well, you and your bank manager may not agree....

 

Quote

If any Thai assets are registered in joint names (including that of the deceased)  then a Thai Court Order will have to be obtained to make any changes in the joint registration (in other words in Thailand the surviving joint owners do not automatically inherit the underlying jointly owned assets). This is particularly the case for jointly owned bank accounts where a court order authorising any change must be obtained.

http://www.probateresealing.co.uk/services/probate-resealing/thailand/

Ouch! But a noted law office in Pattaya disagrees:

 

Quote

One way to ensure that the partner will be able to access some funds is for the foreigner to set up a joint account with the partner and deposit some money in that account. A joint account is not frozen when the foreigner passes away; the partner still has access.

https://www.pattayamail.com/ourcommunity/preparing-for-the-inevitable-45700

Anyway, based on the above confusion, be prepared to have your wife/gf empty out your bank accounts soonest. Best to have online access, plus previously having set up transfer access (where OTP is required). And, if you're like me, 500k is the daily transfer limit, thus the wife will need two days to deplete my account (and joint account) having more than 500k in each. Legal implications? If your wife is sole beneficiary, plus executor -- who's going to press charges? (And, who's even going to know I'm dead....). A compete "absence of malice", besides, I doubt whether or not banks scrutinize death notices to determine whether or not accounts should be frozen....

 

But, yeah, worst case -- if somehow the bank requires probate to transfer funds out of your sole and joint accounts, for sure have a Will. And, if you're reading this now, and don't have one, sit down and write one in long hand (cursive or print, i.e., handwriting or hand printed, both accepted). Nothing flowery or in legalese -- "I leave everything, including bank accounts x,y,z to my wife -- should she not survive me, I leave the above to my nephew x." No witness required for a handwritten Will, although have your maid or gardener witness, if available. Plus, record the whole writing, with audio, on your cell phone, then save on a thumb drive to include with the Will. Probably won't ever need, but nice insurance. Oh, your sole account for immigration -- have your wife's name on it as co-signatory -- this will allow, should an internet transfer go haywire, for her to go to the bank and transfer your funds out. (Assuming the bank doesn't know you're dead, although this might not be pertinent, based on the bank manager.).

 

As far as your golf clubs and underwear -- that's included in "I leave everything."

 

[Mike Teavee]

11 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

The ThaiVisa Forum search function is absolutely worthless, and should be scrapped from the Forum as it gives the false impression that the topic you are looking for is not covered in earlier threads.

And there is an easy and perfectly working alternative > Google

Just type ThaiVisa or ThaiVisa.com, followed by your search term and it will provide you with a looooong list of hits for the topic you are interested in.

Apologies if I'm trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs, but the best way to search a specific website using Google is to use the site: parameter  

 

E.g. in Google enter Wills site:thaivisa.com in the search box 

 

 

Thanks for all the replies so far, great topic & something that I'm also interested in finding more information about so following closely... 

 

 

[Peter Denis]

12 hours ago, JimGant said:

Indeed, and nothing substantive comes from them, probably because nobody has reached the probate part of all the questions being asked in these threads.

 

For most of us farangs here, reading this, our primary asset is our bank account (our lady owns the land, the car, other registered assets, so we needn't worry about these in our Will). But, our bank account, particularly the 800k model used for annual extensions, is of primary concern (because it's solely owned). So, yeah, make sure it's listed in your Will, should the wife need to go through probate (but she probably won't need to -- read on).

 

And joint accounts? Well, you and your bank manager may not agree....

 

Ouch! But a noted law office in Pattaya disagrees:

 

Anyway, based on the above confusion, be prepared to have your wife/gf empty out your bank accounts soonest. Best to have online access, plus previously having set up transfer access (where OTP is required). And, if you're like me, 500k is the daily transfer limit, thus the wife will need two days to deplete my account (and joint account) having more than 500k in each. Legal implications? If your wife is sole beneficiary, plus executor -- who's going to press charges? (And, who's even going to know I'm dead....). A compete "absence of malice", besides, I doubt whether or not banks scrutinize death notices to determine whether or not accounts should be frozen....

 

But, yeah, worst case -- if somehow the bank requires probate to transfer funds out of your sole and joint accounts, for sure have a Will. And, if you're reading this now, and don't have one, sit down and write one in long hand (cursive or print, i.e., handwriting or hand printed, both accepted). Nothing flowery or in legalese -- "I leave everything, including bank accounts x,y,z to my wife -- should she not survive me, I leave the above to my nephew x." No witness required for a handwritten Will, although have your maid or gardener witness, if available. Plus, record the whole writing, with audio, on your cell phone, then save on a thumb drive to include with the Will. Probably won't ever need, but nice insurance. Oh, your sole account for immigration -- have your wife's name on it as co-signatory -- this will allow, should an internet transfer go haywire, for her to go to the bank and transfer your funds out. (Assuming the bank doesn't know you're dead, although this might not be pertinent, based on the bank manager.).

 

As far as your golf clubs and underwear -- that's included in "I leave everything."

 

Good and sensible info - thanks.

But you wrote > No witness required for a handwritten Will

According to Thai law that is not correct < see my post #4 >, you will need 2 witnesses to sign your handwritten will (yes, can be the maid and the gardener when no family ties or mentioned as beneficiary in that last will).

 

The most common last will and testament in Thailand is a last will in writing, dated at the time of making and signed by the testator in the presence of at least 2 witnesses who sign their names to certify the signature of the testator (section 1656 of the Civil and Commercial Code). It is not required that such a will is notarized or registered for it to be a valid legal will.

[JimGant]

Quote

Section 1657. Holographic Wills

 

A will may be made by a holographic document, that is to say the testator must write with his own hand the whole text of the document, the date and his signature.

No erasure, addition or other alteration in such will is valid unless made by the testator’s own hand and signed by him.

The provision of Section 9 of this Code shall not apply to a will made under this section.

Section 9 pertains to the requirement for witnesses. Thus, no witnesses required for a holographic Will.

 

Quote

The Holograph Will is the simpler form of Wills. It doesn’t cost a penny and it may contain simply a few sentences. It must be hand written, NOT typed (like a computer), dated and signed. You do not need witnesses.

https://thailawonline.com/en/family/inheritance-and-wills.html

 

[fangless]

Thanks for the great Info above re holographic Will.  

It looks like it is all I require for my single retirement visa bank account to be left to the other half.  She is already sitting on everything else I own in this country anyway.

Without getting embroiled in the "you must have a witness/do not need a witness" discussion, would I be correct in assuming that it would not do any harm to have a holographic Will witnessed anyway?

[JimGant]

19 minutes ago, fangless said:

would I be correct in assuming that it would not do any harm to have a holographic Will witnessed anyway?

No harm, plus maybe an advantage, should anyone contest your Will (unlikely as it seems). The video/audio addition is also further safeguard, and easy to do with today's phones. If the witness is Thai, make sure you include her Thai ID number next to her signature (farang, passport number).

[xylophone]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:31 AM, fangless said:

Does anyone know where to get a blank/template Thai/English will form?

I have one and will post it here as soon as I can find it........be back shortly.

Thai Will template amended.docx

[jeffandgop]

I'm from the U.S.  My wife is Thai. We married in the U.S. We did not register our marriage in Thailand.  No children.  This is our experience and measures we have undertaken.

 

1.  We extensively researched Thai Family Law.  We determined we could prepare and execute our wills in Thailand without the need for a lawyer.  We paid for a will template (740THB) from Thailandlawonline.  We each created and completed wills using the template as a guide/baseline and had 2 witnesses sign after we signed.  We placed the originals in a lockbox and copies were provided to our designated executor.  We did not register the will with the Amphur as it is not a legal requirement.  We are completely confident our wills are legal, enforceable and valid. 

 

2.  Some years ago II created a notebook for my wife, which I keep updated, which provides instructions and advice to take control of assets and daily life when I pass- no need to try to search for what and where assets are, who to contact, what to do, etc. The Table of Contents lists each topic of details I have created:

• GENERAL
• FIRST STEPS
• (COMPANY) PENSION
• SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION
• BANKING
• U.S. INCOME TAXES & FOREIGN BANKS & FINANCIAL REPORTS
• OTHER

The "General" & "First Steps" info includes location of all key documents s.a. wills, passports, marriage certificate, birth certificates, house registration, auto titles, etc.  User Names and passwords of key websites.  Words of caution to strictly avoiding any lawyer whose fees are based on the value of the estate. How to contact my family in the U.S., notifying Thai authorities and the U.S. Embassy and obtain death certificates and U.S. "Notification of Death Abroad". How to notify my company pension org and secure control over the continuing pension. Social Security Administration- how to contact and details of the benefits that will continue. U.S. banking- how to contact to secure our joint account and what they will require.  How to manage the preparation and filing of U.S. Federal taxes and FBAR each year. Insurance policies and benefits. Etc. Etc.

 

Of the many comments and advice given by the community in this thread, I will now provide my knowledge or experience or suggestions to a few of the comments that I can specifically relate to.

 

"And while on this subject, I recommend having a Living Will".  Damn Smart- we have executed those as well using templates obtained from Thai websites online.

 

"If the banks know you have died, they will freeze the account until probate has been approved".  That is what Bangkok Bank has told us as well.  Being a joint account she can either withdraw all the funds before notifying the bank or secure after probate.  She also has access to my sole account used for annual immigration requirements.

 

"Template wills are not advised nor necessarily immediately accepted. For example, when a will is probated there can be consideration of the inheritance laws of Thailand and the courts concerns for recognising the rights of relatives abroad, such as children."  Not true. Most wills must go through probate, regardless whether a lawyer prepared them or the deceased person themself.  Inheritance laws dictate the rights of family members where there is no will.  A will can determine how assets are too be distributed regardless of Thai family law.  Certainly disgruntled relatives may wish to contest a will, but generally a will is held valid for can how assets are ultimately disbursed.

 

"My Thai will is lodged at the local Ampure in accordance with Thai rules".  While wills may be registered with the Amphur, it is an option and not a requirement for a will to be valid.  But, it is said that a registered will provides greater weight if disputed than one that is not registered.

 

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, jeffandgop said:

I'm from the U.S.  My wife is Thai. We married in the U.S. We did not register our marriage in Thailand.  No children.  This is our experience and measures we have undertaken.

 

1.  We extensively researched Thai Family Law.  We determined we could prepare and execute our wills in Thailand without the need for a lawyer.  We paid for a will template (740THB) from Thailandlawonline.  We each created and completed wills using the template as a guide/baseline and had 2 witnesses sign after we signed.  We placed the originals in a lockbox and copies were provided to our designated executor.  We did not register the will with the Amphur as it is not a legal requirement.  We are completely confident our wills are legal, enforceable and valid. 

 

2.  Some years ago II created a notebook for my wife, which I keep updated, which provides instructions and advice to take control of assets and daily life when I pass- no need to try to search for what and where assets are, who to contact, what to do, etc. The Table of Contents lists each topic of details I have created:

• GENERAL
• FIRST STEPS
• (COMPANY) PENSION
• SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION
• BANKING
• U.S. INCOME TAXES & FOREIGN BANKS & FINANCIAL REPORTS
• OTHER

The "General" & "First Steps" info includes location of all key documents s.a. wills, passports, marriage certificate, birth certificates, house registration, auto titles, etc.  User Names and passwords of key websites.  Words of caution to strictly avoiding any lawyer whose fees are based on the value of the estate. How to contact my family in the U.S., notifying Thai authorities and the U.S. Embassy and obtain death certificates and U.S. "Notification of Death Abroad". How to notify my company pension org and secure control over the continuing pension. Social Security Administration- how to contact and details of the benefits that will continue. U.S. banking- how to contact to secure our joint account and what they will require.  How to manage the preparation and filing of U.S. Federal taxes and FBAR each year. Insurance policies and benefits. Etc. Etc.

 

Of the many comments and advice given by the community in this thread, I will now provide my knowledge or experience or suggestions to a few of the comments that I can specifically relate to.

...

Very useful info, especially the practicalities in 2.  I also made a clear overview to avoid my thai girlfriend has to go on a 'Fact finding mission', but you provided me with some additional  points of relevance to be included.   Thanks for the inspiration!

[jeffandgop]

26 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Very useful info, especially the practicalities in 2.  I also made a clear overview to avoid my thai girlfriend has to go on a 'Fact finding mission', but you provided me with some additional  points of relevance to be included.   Thanks for the inspiration!

It's also good practice to check and update your own "notebook"- I do twice a year.  Bank accounts change, current and future pension assets and direct deposits and 401K's change; even website logons are changed by administrators so your instructions would need to be current or your spouse won't be able to even log on to your 401K, for example, & follow your outdated instructions.

 

 

[lopburi3]

2 hours ago, jeffandgop said:

How to manage the preparation and filing of U.S. Federal taxes and FBAR each year.

Will that be required?  If she is not dual national do not believe there will be any tax to USA after your year of death.  Pension income would then be taxed under Thai law is my understanding.  Is she not eligible for W-8BEN status?

[jeffandgop]

43 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Will that be required?  If she is not dual national do not believe there will be any tax to USA after your year of death.  Pension income would then be taxed under Thai law is my understanding.  Is she not eligible for W-8BEN status?

She is a US citizen as well as Thai. Her SS benefit will be based on my earnings and so she will have to file BUT the gross income level will place her below any tax liability.