Time for a Chiang Mai overhaul?

[Peterphuket]

3 minutes ago, Peterphuket said:

"There's a similar problem with elephants in Chiang Mai."

 

And another one here in Kao Look Chang, Phetchaburi, "Wildlife Friends Foundation" with, if I remember well  25 elephants to feed.

And not to speak about all the others animals he have to feed, managed by a dutch guy.

A large area.

[elgenon]

Most businesses of size are best situated in Bangkok. I remember after the floods in Bangkok many Bangkokians bought places in CM. What's happened to those?

[Pravda]

So glad Farang started this concerning thread on Thai Visa forum. I'm sure the city is now on its path to recovery. 

 

Yawn

[ChipButty]

On 10/11/2020 at 10:37 AM, EricTh said:

@FolkGuitar

You forget that a lot of people in Chiang Mai aren't residents, they came from neighboring provinces and some even come as far as Isaan.

 

That's because CM is a gold-mine with its tourists.

 

The lesser known towns 'can survive' in normal times because their residents went to CM and Bangkok to earn money. So they are also affected.

 

I have seen my Isaan eatery owner in CM closing their shop and going back to Isaan. I have seen one Lao worker in another eatery going back to Laos because business was bad and the owner decided to let go some staff.

 

Tourists don't go to small towns, it is the Thai residents from small towns who go to large towns for work.

The same in Phuket all migrant workers

[spidermike007]

A rather thought provoking topic, and one that relates to many other areas of Thailand too. Pattaya, Samui, Phuket. The promotion of domestic tourism is a good place to start. The few places that are surviving on Samui, in CM, and in tourist areas of Pattaya at the moment, are doing so thanks to Thai tourists, and ex-pats. Perhaps ex-pats should be given a bit more credit, in this formula? We do bring in alot of stable income. And nearly all opinions that ex-pats venture forth with, on this forum, are colored by that stable income, is it is to be expected, that we will hear some rather insensitive comments. Easy to talk, when you have a cushy pension. 

 

One potential source of income and jobs for CM, are nursing homes. I know there are a few, but it is likely they need more, especially as ex-pats age. I saw one recently online, that looked like quite a delightful place to live. It was more like a living community, with private homes, and nursing and assisted living components. That is an industry with great potential. 

 

Another consideration, is CM, like Samui, Phuket, and Pattaya was grossly overdeveloped, with little to no planning, or traffic mitigation. Not sure how it is now, but the last time I was there, traffic was becoming horrendous. What to do with all of those new apartment buildings, condos, and hotels? The vacancy factor will remain high for years to come. Much of the speculation was done, without much in the way of market research, and dependent on the idea that tourism always goes up, and more and more Chinese would be looking for homes, and apartments long term. How things change. Fairly hard to muster up compassion for many of these greedy developers, but it does leave a bit of a blight on the city. Same applies to Samui, where businesses are closing at a rate never seen before. 

 

The longer they wait, the harder it will be to restore the industry. People have short memories. Thailand was already being forgotten by millions, before Covid, due to a dozen reasons. Now? Too many alternatives. This administration continues to see Thailand as the COTU (center of the universe). Say it ain't so! No humility seem to be getting learned as of now. The army needs to figure out a way to muster up some courage, and re-open the nation to tourism. There are many ways it can be done safely, and there will be some risk, but nothing like the risk of not opening, and remaining sealed off from the world, like early 19th century Japan. Not even close. 

 

 

[Lacessit]

 People are losing jobs, income and are getting somewhat desperate. Many legitimate massage people of either gender have no work. A tour agent I know, who had a thriving business, has been unemployed for six months.

Making Chiang Mai into a university city or a nursing home portal with varying degrees of comfort are both very good suggestions. However, permit me to doubt the current government would get off their butts and adopt them, because the ideas are not theirs.

[1FinickyOne]

On 10/11/2020 at 10:22 AM, FolkGuitar said:

What keeps Phitsanulok financially sound?

Phitsanoluk never had much of a tourist industry... If they have 4 bars and 2 go under, it is not earth shattering... it is when you have hundreds of bars and restaurants set up for tourists, and they stop coming that there is a problem...

 

I usually like your posts but not sure I get what you are on about... if you are a pig farmer during swine flu, it is more upsetting than if you are a nurse... CM has a tourist area, it relies on tourists, whereas other cities do not... 

 

a sea change like you are asking for is a gradual process... if there is a vaccine, then maybe tourists will return... if not, it will change. 

[FolkGuitar]

2 hours ago, Dante99 said:

There is a bit of manufacturing and substantial agriculture, not just tourism.

 

Isn't there?

 

http://www.chiangmai.go.th/english/index.php/welcome/information

 

•  Agriculture :22.2%, Manufacture :9.5%,Trade & services : 12.5%,hotel & restaurant : 6.9%, Others: 48.9%

 

• 2,612 factories with invested capita 34 mil.baht employing 42,611 workers.

 

Tourism revenue in 2015

• 73,757.45 million baht
• local Thais 48,559.98 mil.baht (39%)

 

Yes, there IS some manufacturing, mostly in the Lamphang area, as I said before. Quite a few foreign companies have located there. There are several other areas with some manufacturing. And there certainly IS substantial agriculture.  But Thailand, and Chiang Mai in particular, made their bones in Tourism, which certainly carried the real weight. The proof of which is the current lack of work for Chiang Mai locals, long food lines every few days around town, and restaurants and guest houses shutting down.

 

Instead of new condos, new hotels, and new tourist attractions, Chiang Mai might develop new Industrial Parks, and offer start-up incentives for Thai companies to relocate.  According you the figures you presented, manufacturing accounts for less than 10%.  Those "OTHERS" you list (which I'm sure includes quite a high percentage of the tourist dollar) account for almost 50%.

 

More can be done with agriculture on a very local level. In Japan, you don't see vacant lots between apartment buildings. Some local has rented it and turned it into a rice paddy.  10mX20m rice paddies are everywhere inside cities and towns. I'm not talking about normal-sized farms... These are little plots are planted by John Q Local, and help feed his family.  But that's not a workable plan for the entire population. Chiang Mai, and Thailand as a whole, needs to diversify if it is to be financially stable in today's market. 

It is NOT up to us Farang to make the plans. This is Thailand. It's a Thai problem to be solved by Thais.

[deej]

42 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

 

It is NOT up to us Farang to make the plans. This is Thailand. It's a Thai problem to be solved by Thais.

At last ???? , the penny has dropped.????

[Trujillo]

Malibukid has hit an important nail squarely on the head. 

I said this at the very beginning of the covid madness -- put those out of work to use in public works improvement. People who would otherwise be struggling for an income would be helped; the ramshackle areas in the city would get a face-lift and the general social benefits of having a better, cleaner environment are manifest. But of course nothing of the sort was done. In fact, it almost seemed that, for example, road-cleaning crews vanished. 

Of course, there are road works -- the second ring road being a large one -- but there are literally thousands of places around the city that need minor repairs or a good, deep cleaning. 

 

In management, there is a basic notion of, "Before starting to fix something, find out if the problem actually exists." 

 

The entire premise of this thread is that since non-domestic tourism is dead, for now, we should move away from that. If foreign tourists were not going to come back at all, or not for five or 10 years, this might be viable. But the fact is that all this hysteria relating to a virus doesn't necessarily mean that tourists will not be returning, just not right away. 
If the idea is to alter a few things like the walking streets in ... was it Pattaya or Phuket? to be for Thais, that's one thing. That's a temporary measure, easily rolled back, but if you are talking about major changes, it's worth keeping in mind that this is a temporary phenomenon. People around the world are starting to wake up to the realization that covid is dangerous for only a certain section of people -- one size does not fit all -- and that the cure is severely injuring the patient. 

 

So I think it's a good business idea to put out of work people on government jobs that will enhance the infrastructure of the nation while temporarily clapping up the facades of "for Thais" makeovers of formerly all dirty farang hang outs. 

[dingdongrb]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:11 PM, beau thai said:

I fear the OP is correct that we will wait a long time for CM to return to being a vibrant tourist hub, and meantime, there is not enough local income generated to support the number of local business.

So we need to plan to export whatever, to wherever - including other parts of Thailand.

Longer term, to avoid CM being a one trick pony and caught in the next tourist lockdown, maybe Uni's should focus more on technology,  to skill young people to develop a 'smart city' rep.

Currently I dont see any signs of significant technology 'manufacturing' businesses here. Maybe they are here but out of sight. Perhaps designating a Technology Park/Silicon Valley area with grants to attract start ups is worth trialling.

Lamphun has a couple of roaring areas that are setup for high tech manufacturing. They have been there for 20+ years and continue to be a thriving industry that hires tens of thousands of employees paying good wages. Jobs that don't require folks being out in the sun 10+ hours a day. I suggest that CM needs to start looking into these types of businesses, businesses that produce high tech products or components.

[sdweller]

The truth is that Thailand was slipping prior to the virus... and many expats, etc., were already looking for alternatives due to less visa hassles, nicer receptions, and exhaust at being called derogatory names like "Farang".  Thailand is exposing itself as being a bit fat and complacent; I'm sorry but the vast majority of expats and longer-term visitors are good people who love and respect Thailand, (I know I do). Thailand and especially the Thai people very well may end up missing us Farangs if indeed they are trying to get rid of us.  I hope they are not, but there are alternatives that will flourish if given the opportunity; I know because I've already experienced some.

[sammieuk1]

After 11 years there suggest digging a bigger hole and burying the place I'm off if I ever get back ???? 

[meechai]

On 10/10/2020 at 5:22 PM, FolkGuitar said:

Perhaps it's time to rethink the revenue production for Chiang Mai. Coming up with a plan is certainly better than sitting around bemoaning the loss of tourist dollars.

Not to worry it is all self correcting even now.

 

Not to forget it was not the Thai people who made Chiang Mai a city driven by Tourist Dollars

Chiang Mai & possible many more of Thailand's once busy tourist driven provinces will wither now.....of course

 

That these Thai provinces will change horses is stating the obvious of course they will do what they will do to survive.

 

Moan? of course & you would too no different than all the folks in Detroit moaned when car manufactures left town along with their payrolls

 

But, do not make the mistake of thinking it is or will be just Thai's bemoaning the loss of what tourists dollars brought to Chiang Mai.

Expats in the last 20 years have grown to love the expat/tourist driven places to eat/shop etc. Many of those where started to target tourists not

expats as there is not a big enough expat population to support it all & those will also now close up.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:07 PM, trevoromgh said:

I've not been in Chiang Mai that long but I get the impression that the residents, like the Thai people themselves, are very resilient and will adapt to the circumstances. 

The good thing I've noticed is the infrastructure planning for the city seems very good with the ring road system with flyovers and underpasses and there seems an abundance of land available.  The new road between Lamphun and Chiang Mai provides immense capacity for industrial and manufacturing companies along the way with scope for new residential villages as well.  From what I've seen already the reliance on the tourism industry was starting to change before the pandemic came along and this will just cause the switch to happen earlier than expected.

You bring up a good point. IMO C M is two cities- the old part in and around the old city which is where the tourism is centered and everything over the superhighway which is all new and non touristed.

 

If I were in charge I'd be using the opportunity to sort out the mess that old C M has become and make it more attractive for tourists when they eventually return, as they will. I'd certainly be relocating the university to outside the old city. My Thai nephew was there and the area is a disaster zone, IMO.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

Lamphun has a couple of roaring areas that are setup for high tech manufacturing. They have been there for 20+ years and continue to be a thriving industry that hires tens of thousands of employees paying good wages. Jobs that don't require folks being out in the sun 10+ hours a day. I suggest that CM needs to start looking into these types of businesses, businesses that produce high tech products or components.

I lived in the new part of Lamphun where the superhighway is, and it was built to support the industry. The old city isn't industrialised at all.

I just don't know that there is opportunity for more industry than already exists. Compared to Chonburi, it's very small indeed, and water would be a problem if industry was expanded.

[Sheryl]

Flaming/bickering posts have been removed.

 

Please behave yourselves.

[moontang]

The writing is on the wall that the future is Chinese tourism, partially because the Chinese have ruined it so much, that they are the only ones that will tolerate the pollution.  Just about the same with Hua Hin, but they still have a core of Scandie snowbirds.  

[Ventenio]

looking at this the WRONG way...

 

every citizen is given 80,000 baht.  the government pumped TRILLIONS into the economy, rent was forgiven in some cases, impossible to evict, food stamps, etc...  housing prices are hitting all-time highs and the stock market is souring!!!  

 

oh wait, that's another country.

 

but.........it's relevant.   i am surprised more Thais didn't own gold and make good money during the gold boom.  

 

CM is unique.  have you been to phitsanulok city?   ah, ok.  CM treated us bad, wanted our money, didn't worry if we didn't experience the LOS dream.  lol

 

the pollution is the worst.  worst of the worst of the worst.  of the worst.  

 

and it's very CLEAR a Chinese person is 245% more important than a farang.  

[dingdongrb]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I lived in the new part of Lamphun where the superhighway is, and it was built to support the industry. The old city isn't industrialised at all.

I just don't know that there is opportunity for more industry than already exists. Compared to Chonburi, it's very small indeed, and water would be a problem if industry was expanded.

There is no room in the old city area for any large manufacturing factories. The IEAT areas you are referring to near the superhighway and Big C have been there for 20+ years. They are tax free zones and that is what I am suggesting for CM as it would entice foreign investors to setup manufacturing. They have since built some newer factories out off of 116 towards Pa Sang. 

 

CM could start manufacturing facilities like Lamphun has, but CM nor Lamphun could never be like Chonburi or Rayong. And you're right, it's due to lack of water. They are nowhere near a seaport!

[dingdongrb]

11 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

...... and the stock market is souring!!!  

 

 

Sounds like you picked the wrong tickers......  

 

DOW up over 2,000 points

NASDAQ up nearly 4,000 points

 

.....and my portfolio is loving it!!!!!

 

NOTE: Anyone who follows the market closely and had $$ on hand to buy during that 'blip' in March is a 'happy camper'......  ????

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

There is no room in the old city area for any large manufacturing factories. The IEAT areas you are referring to near the superhighway and Big C have been there for 20+ years. They are tax free zones and that is what I am suggesting for CM as it would entice foreign investors to setup manufacturing. They have since built some newer factories out off of 116 towards Pa Sang. 

 

CM could start manufacturing facilities like Lamphun has, but CM nor Lamphun could never be like Chonburi or Rayong. And you're right, it's due to lack of water. They are nowhere near a seaport!

Not that sort of water, but you knew that.

 

Anyway, why would major businesses set up in the north when everything has to be transported to the port to be exported? They'll set up in Chonburi, and plenty of land to build on.

[dingdongrb]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Anyway, why would major businesses set up in the north when everything has to be transported to the port to be exported? They'll set up in Chonburi, and plenty of land to build on.

CM has a much lower salary base than BKK or those other areas for skilled labor and folks would rather live in CM than in those cities with too much traffic and population density.

 

To be honest while large freight is transported via ship most smaller products and electronic assemblies/components are mainly using air freight services these days. And in many cases are being expedited at a higher cost.

 

What high tech manufacturing requires a lot of water? I would guess building a new sub-division (mooban) with hundreds or even thousands of houses requires much more water usage than a high tech manufacturing facility. And look at how many of those sub-divisions sprung up over the last several years.

[deej]

Doe,s any one Really care.

All pie in the sky, suggestions so far IMO.

Presently Cmai is no different to ,many many city,s through out the world,and very possibly in a better position.

Summing up,It is what it is????

 

 

[Ventenio]

On 10/13/2020 at 4:50 PM, dingdongrb said:

On 10/13/2020 at 4:31 PM, Ventenio said:

...... and the stock market is souring!!!  

 

 

Sounds like you picked the wrong tickers......  

no, I'm an IDIOT.   In the context, I wanted an optimistic word. 

 

meant soaring!!!!   LOL.

 

have no idea what happened there,  it will happen again and again and again

[captainjackS]

For those of you interested in Chiang Mai investing in a future economy that involves innovation (not manufacturing) in Science, Technology, and Engineering ...  Have you heard of NARIT or STeP?   NARIT is National Astronomical Research Institute of Thailand.  STeP is northern Science and Technology Park connected to Chiang Mai Uni.  Both places are focusing on higher education and building capabilities and economic opportunity in Thailand that didn't exist before -- especially in the North where many people would prefer to work instead of BKK.  

[thaibeachlovers]

21 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

CM has a much lower salary base than BKK or those other areas for skilled labor and folks would rather live in CM than in those cities with too much traffic and population density.

 

To be honest while large freight is transported via ship most smaller products and electronic assemblies/components are mainly using air freight services these days. And in many cases are being expedited at a higher cost.

 

What high tech manufacturing requires a lot of water? I would guess building a new sub-division (mooban) with hundreds or even thousands of houses requires much more water usage than a high tech manufacturing facility. And look at how many of those sub-divisions sprung up over the last several years.

You already pointed out why more water needed. If more people are employed they all use water for drinking, cooking and washing.

 

I must have missed all those 747 air freighters when I lived there.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, captainjackS said:

For those of you interested in Chiang Mai investing in a future economy that involves innovation (not manufacturing) in Science, Technology, and Engineering ...  Have you heard of NARIT or STeP?   NARIT is National Astronomical Research Institute of Thailand.  STeP is northern Science and Technology Park connected to Chiang Mai Uni.  Both places are focusing on higher education and building capabilities and economic opportunity in Thailand that didn't exist before -- especially in the North where many people would prefer to work instead of BKK.  

Sooo, lots of people move to industrial centers in the north and create replicas of Bkk where they don't want to live?

[dingdongrb]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You already pointed out why more water needed. If more people are employed they all use water for drinking, cooking and washing.

 

I must have missed all those 747 air freighters when I lived there.

Drinking water is typically bottled.

 

Who washes clothes or showers at work?

 

747s are not needed for sending materials or small products via air. If you noticed I stated that shipping via sea is typically used for large items such as autos.

 

For the majority of the high tech manufacturing that is currently being done at the IEAT facilities in Lamphun they are using CNX for incoming and outgoing.

 

NOTE: I never did say that more water (or at least large amounts that would deter building high tech manufacturing facilities in CM) was needed.......do show me.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, dingdongrb said:

NOTE: I never did say that more water (or at least large amounts that would deter building high tech manufacturing facilities in CM) was needed.......do show me.

You said

On 10/14/2020 at 7:26 PM, dingdongrb said:

I would guess building a new sub-division (mooban) with hundreds or even thousands of houses requires much more water usage than a high tech manufacturing facility. And look at how many of those sub-divisions sprung up over the last several years.

I wasn't referring to the industry per se using more water, but to the new people that staffed the new factories needing water.