Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[vogie]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I like how you managed to contradict yourself in just one little post ???? 

 

Did you not understand my little quip wolves.

[mommysboy]

47 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

So you are saying the Brexit referendum was fundamentally unfair ?  Lots of people directly affected by it were not allowed to vote - EU citizens in UK and UK citizens in EU 

 

Yes actually the Brexit referendum was unfair imo. 

 

In any UK vote, only UK nationals should be able to vote.  Scots votes would count in the Scot vote, etc,  and it should be 18 year olds as per the election.  And definitely not EU residents- only British people. 

 

 

 

 

[Mavideol]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

I didn't realise we were a nation of the EU, although I am sure that they thought it was well within their grasp.

 

If I can paraphrase Andrew Neil: If Scotland was to achieve independence from the rest of the UK and fail to join the EU, they would become a Banana Republic but without the bananas.????????

but that would be their problem, but at least they were FREE to try.... and the UK would have nothing to be blame for.  As for Banana Republic an old saying comes to kind " he who lives in a glass house should not throw rocks/stones"????????????

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

but that would be their problem, but at least they were FREE to try.... and the UK would have nothing to be blame for.  As for Banana Republic an old saying comes to kind " he who lives in a glass house should not throw rocks/stones"????????????

But it would not only be their problem, whatever affects the United Kingdom affects all of the UK and another useless saying is 'many a mickle maks a muckle'.????????

 

5th largest economy can never be described as a banana republic.

[Mavideol]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

But it would not only be their problem, whatever affects the United Kingdom affects all of the UK and another useless saying is 'many a mickle maks a muckle'.????????

 

5th largest economy can never be described as a banana republic.

how can it affect the UK, is that you and some others with similar ideas, who said not long ago, while talking about fishing rights, the UK doesn't need Scotland, so what is it,  need or no need, let the Scots be Scots (and not a province of England) they deserve it and they have the right to it

[transam]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

how can it affect the UK, is that you and some others with similar ideas, who said not long ago, while talking about fishing rights, the UK doesn't need Scotland, so what is it,  need or no need, let the Scots be Scots (and not a province of England) they deserve it and they have the right to it

Scotland is not a province of England, it is a country on an island belonging to the Union of countries called the United Kingdom.........????

[2530Ubon]

This has been discussed just as frequently as Brexit over the last couple of years here and at home, and I think most of us are a bit tired of hashing out the same old arguments.

 

If Scotland wishes to have a further referendum, then let them. Leaving the EU is grounds for a further referendum as conditions have changed considerably. Scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU - but the UK as a whole voted otherwise.

 

We can argue about 'oh they just one a few years ago, let's keep voting until the plebs vote the way we want' - a few years ago we were a member or the EU and although we were a small island nation, we had vetoing power and were considered one of the big three - UK, France and Germany. Not anymore. Things have changed considerably.

 

Leaving the UK to join the EU is not a pointless 'out of one bed and into another' - It's re-joining the single largest free trade / movement of people bloc in the world.

 

We could argue about who gets the oil / which currency they'll use blah blah blah... nope. If Scotland wishes to leave, then leave it should. That is the epitome of a democratic society. Shackling another unwilling nation into a union is not very democratic.

 

I would like to see the referendum at a later date though. After this corona crises and the brexit bungle has settled. However, if the Scottish people wish one now, then I am all for it - I could have dual nationality; I was born in England, but my mother and father are both Scottish born and bred, as is the rest of my family. Easy way for me to get a Scottish passport and all the benefits of being a European.

 

We still have to see what the trade agreement holds for the 80.6% of the economy  - services. A shame Boris tried to sell it as a complete oven ready deal when the majority of our economy has no deal in place. Too much time spent dithering on fish, which contributes 0.1% to the economy, in comparison with services; 80.6%. Perhaps if he had an oven ready deal as he promised, then we might not be in this situation.

 

[transam]

After 300 years, in 2014 the Scots had a referendum to stay or leave the Union, they voted to stay in the Union.

Because the Scottish National Party (Nationalists) cannot stop smarting over the vote they want another after any eventuality.

They have now said they need it to get over Corvid, how daft is that.

They are now using Brexit, Corvid to bolster their case, if there were no Corvid or Brexit they would still be foot stomping for another referendum after a few years.

Shield beaters fronted by those who haven't a clue how to run their country now, using more money per head than the rest of the Union.

Let's see how Sturgeon gets on with her pending legal stuff....

 

 

[Scott Tracy]

On 1/14/2021 at 5:34 PM, snoop1130 said:

LONDON (Reuters) - Scottish nationalists are on course to win a record majority in elections for Scotland’s devolved parliament that would start a new push for independence, an opinion poll published on Thursday showed.

 

Nicola Sturgeon, Scotland’s first minister and head of the pro-independence Scottish National Party, will claim a mandate for another independence referendum if her party performs strongly in the elections scheduled for May 6.

 

 

Still, five months to go to the Election. I wonder what the poling questions were.

 

Never mind. 

 

Why not declare UDI? Get it over with. The FM keeps telling all the world she has the mandate, or will have when the SNP wins a huge landslide majority in Holyrood.

 

I dare say, all the plans are in place for compliance with the EU rules of accession. Hope she gets her way, hope the EU accepts the Scots back into the fold. 

Borders at Hadrian 's Wall. Borders in the Irish Sea. Soon be borders at Offa's Dyke...isolated England.

 

A pissant country, hitting far above its weight. No American President has yet come out and said he is of English origin. Irish, yes, Scottish, yes. English, not to my knowledge. I think that, personally, is great, but that's just me.

 

Sorry, old home country, time to let the kids go their own way and curl up in slippers and smoke your pipes near the fire, with the aging spaniel.

[vogie]

31 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

how can it affect the UK, is that you and some others with similar ideas, who said not long ago, while talking about fishing rights, the UK doesn't need Scotland, so what is it,  need or no need, let the Scots be Scots (and not a province of England) they deserve it and they have the right to it

How can it affect the UK, are you serious, did the Berlin Wall affect East and West Germany, were you in awe of it or did you despise it. Only half the Scots wants to partition the UK, the other 50%ish are quite happy being in our union. 

Nobody was interested in the Scottish problem till Brexit happened and now all the bitterness is being released by all and sundry who failed to get the referendum result they wanted, so it's teddy out the cot now. 

[Rimmer]

Some baiting and bickering posts have been removed

[VocalNeal]

Does this mean Berwick Rangers will have to play in the English football league?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, VocalNeal said:

Does this mean Berwick Rangers will have to play in the English football league?

If the wall goes through their ground they might have to take up volleyball.

[2530Ubon]

5 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Does this mean Berwick Rangers will have to play in the English football league?

I would think so, they are an English football team. I'm a bit confused as to why they play in the scottish league anyway!

 

Best question I've read on this thread btw ????

[pacovl46]

10 hours ago, vogie said:

Scotland was never in the EU, it was the UK that was in the EU, so Scotland could't re-join the EU because they were never in it. And they have about as much chance of joining the EU as me joining The Parachute Regt.

 

Splitting hairs and we’ll see! 

[IvorBiggun2]

1 hour ago, 2530Ubon said:

If Scotland wishes to leave, then leave it should. That is the epitome of a democratic society.

But the referendum said they didn't want to leave the UK. End of. For me I would like to see Scotland leave the UK and fall flat on its face. So hurry up and leave Scotland cuz that is exactly what will happen under those SNP dreamers.

[Hi from France]

8 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Spain has already said it will vote against the Jockanese joining. So carry on looking stupid Sturgeon.

You 'd need to source that (elsewhere than from a tabloid, I mean). 

 

It seems Sturgeon did a pretty good job of establishing friendly direct relationships with European countries. 

And Scotland and Catalonia are not the same situations.

 

Catalonian independence means leaving Spain and the EU at the same time

... while Scotland has left the European Union against its will, while they explicitly wanted to remain members. 

 

So, a Spanish veto to Scotland joining is unlikely. 

 

I speculate the only reason the Spaniards would veto is if the English fully give back Gibraltar. And that would only delay Scotland joining for a while : after a while, the Spaniards would hold on to Gibraltar and accept Scotland.

 

Anyway, Scotland needs not be a full EU member to rejoin the European Free Trade Association. That would be quite quick and the other EFTA members would really welcome Scotland. 

 

The most complicated phase in Scottish independence is separating from England, not joining the European Union or the European Free Trade Association. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Hi from France

[tebee]

3 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

....

 

We still have to see what the trade agreement holds for the 80.6% of the economy  - services. A shame Boris tried to sell it as a complete oven ready deal when the majority of our economy has no deal in place. Too much time spent dithering on fish, which contributes 0.1% to the economy, in comparison with services; 80.6%. Perhaps if he had an oven ready deal as he promised, then we might not be in this situation.

 

 

And the Fishing bit of the deal seems to be a rather pyrrhic victory - we have got a few % more fish, but lost access to the markets we sell to - this is what some of have have being saying for years, but it was all project fear.....

 

Much of the deal is nothing more than a publicity stunt I'm afraid. Things that sound good, but mean little in practice. 

[Hi from France]

3 hours ago, 2530Ubon said:

We still have to see what the trade agreement holds for the 80.6% of the economy  - services. A shame Boris tried to sell it as a complete oven ready deal when the majority of our economy has no deal in place. Too much time spent dithering on fish, which contributes 0.1% to the economy, in comparison with services; 80.6%. Perhaps if he had an oven ready deal as he promised, then we might not be in this situation.

I'm not sure there will be much to see on Services.

 

With the present deal, the EU got what they need : export cars for the Germans, export food for the French. No tariffs, no quotas. 

 

We even got a good deal on fishing. 

 

Why on hell would we strike a deal on Services, mostly financial with the UK?

• We have got back more than a trillion in our (investment / pension / hedge ..) funds that were managed in London,
• we get every week 5-6 billions in the stock trading of our EU businesses. Those trade are now done on our own markets. 
• We have back the banking agency from London to Paris 
• We have back compensation for the euro currency trading (at least 1000 billions yearly). 
• There are still other things we can get back like the derivatives market, but that is not so easy given the expertise needed. But I'm sure the EU financial industry will prevail. 

 

Now I still am at a loss to see who can be stupid enough to strike a FTA on Services with the UK. London is a world champion there. The "square mile" has kicked our asses for decades. 

 

We have a potential of more than one million jobs, not to mention huge tax revenues (10% of the tax revenues of the United Kingdom, much more than the UK ever contributed to the EU). 

 

We need those jobs, we want that income 

 

All the UK will get in financial services is a series of equivalences that will be withdrawn ASAP with a 30 days notice. 

 

 

 

. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Hi from France

[IvorBiggun2]

50 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

, a Spanish veto to Scotland joining is unlikely

Quote

If Nicola Sturgeon thinks she can ride a wave of anti-Brexit sentiment that will carry Scotland all the way to independence as a brand new EU state, she must think again. The dream of seamlessly swapping the chilly isolation of the United Kingdom for the warm embrace of the European Union has already been dashed by an unexpected opponent – Spain.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/15/scottish-nationalists-spanish-independent-scotland-brexit-snp

Eat my shorts.

Edited January 15, 2021 by IvorBiggun2

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/15/scottish-nationalists-spanish-independent-scotland-brexit-snp

Eat my shorts.

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

What's the update Rudy?

 

 

 

Can I get away with 'Independence means independence' or is such vagueness the preserve of Brexiteers?

 

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

It would be in an awful position to trade with the EU by road anyway.

 

You're right - the lorries will sink. Thankfully we have several deep water ports on both the east and west coasts which are very well suited to increased freight business. 

 

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Scotland's biggest trading partner is the UK.  I don't think it's good to on the one hand to deride the UK for cutting oneself off from the major trading partner, and then do the same yourself!

 

Why would we be cutting ourselves off? Don't forget, Scotland buys plenty from England - your third biggest customer, I believe. Will you be happy to lose that? I presume as part of the secession discussions there will be a trade agreement. Once we join the EU (in some manner or other), I presume we will then adopt the appropriate rules commensurate with the membership achieved. As the rest of the UK has a trade deal with the EU, and if the current issues are resolved, I see no significant issues.

 

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Did the SNP ever come up with a plan on basic things like currency, and defence? Last time out it maintained that it was going to keep using the UK pound, which is impossible.

 

Not being a member of the SNP, I am not fully aware of the internal discussions, but the formal position is, to the best of my knowledge, that there is a working party looking at various options. Joseph Stiglitz  is part of it and I think (although I may be wrong here) Mark Blyth is also advising. 

 

[mlmcleod]

On 1/14/2021 at 7:16 PM, Hi from France said:

They HAD a referendum and it was defeated. Are we now in a world where we keep having referenda until the 'right' result is achieved? 

That is exactly what the Brexiters asked for and got!  Why should Scotland and Wales not have the same right!

[sharksy]

On 1/14/2021 at 4:56 PM, Nout said:

Scotland ain't no Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland. 

Quite right.  The skiing is far better in those other countries

[IvorBiggun2]

8 hours ago, Hi from France said:

 

So? Has 3 years made Spain change its mind about a veto on Scotland wanting to join the EU. Nah of course not. Only takes one member to veto and it's no go. Spain will veto Scotland due to their problems with Catalonia.

Edited January 16, 2021 by IvorBiggun2

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

 

So? Has 3 years made Spain change its mind about a veto on Scotland wanting to join the EU. Nah of course not. Only takes one member to veto and it's no go. Spain will veto Scotland due to their problems with Catalonia.

The opinion of a guy three years back does not cut it for me.

 

I read Scotland played its cards well by developing its own diplomacy (bypassing England’s FO) and made advances with the EU and Spain more recently. They also had an attentive ear from Brussels and Scotland is an historic ally of many European countries, France is among them.

Unfortunately I believe this is was a French article from Le Monde. 

You can look it up, but I'm not sure you can do much with it yourself, it's paywalled anyway. 

 

Sorry: the "Spanish veto argument" doesn't hold for me as it did in 2017, and anyway short term would be aiming at EFTA membership, which I do not see any obstacle to. 

 

To me and for what it's worth, the split from the UK is the real (huge) challenge. 

 

. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Hi from France

[2530Ubon]

2 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

 

So? Has 3 years made Spain change its mind about a veto on Scotland wanting to join the EU. Nah of course not. Only takes one member to veto and it's no go. Spain will veto Scotland due to their problems with Catalonia.

 

Looks like things have changed... Anyway - what's that got to do with Scottish independence? If they want it, then it is their right. It would be very undemocratic to force another state into a union they don't wish to be a part of. That's how China deals with Hong Kong & Taiwan. Do we really want to be like the Chinese??

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17575752.spanish-unionist-raises-prospect-vetoing-scotlands-membership-eu/

Quote

 

Conservative Esteban González Pons on Monday said his centre-right Partido Popular (PP) would block any application from an independent Scotland if the UK was still negotiating its own exit from the bloc.

And - countering widely held views elsewhere in Europe - he said that even if Scotland waited till after Brexit, it would have to wait in a queue behind Turkey and Serbia.

His remarks, made ahead of a general election later this month, mark the latest twist in the PP’s vacillating attitude to Scotland the EU.

They come after a series of far more welcoming statements by other EU politicians, including Belgian Liberal MEP Guy Verhofstadt.

 

They also follow assurances from Spanish politicians, including PP when in office, that they would not veto an independent Scotland joining the EU provided sovereignty had been re-established by constitutional means. Visiting Spain’s North African exclave of Melilla, Mr González Pons said the PP “would veto an independent Scotland from directly entering EU before Brexit.”

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

But the referendum said they didn't want to leave the UK. End of. For me I would like to see Scotland leave the UK and fall flat on its face. So hurry up and leave Scotland cuz that is exactly what will happen under those SNP dreamers.

 

Does that not seem a bit petulant and juvenile to you? Are you really so sensitive that a country seeking to forge its own path is enough to make you want to see it fail for having the audacity to reject you? You must have been a nightmare on a weekend in your youth.

[bkkcanuck8]

33 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

 

Looks like things have changed... Anyway - what's that got to do with Scottish independence? If they want it, then it is their right. It would be very undemocratic to force another state into a union they don't wish to be a part of. That's how China deals with Hong Kong & Taiwan. Do we really want to be like the Chinese??

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17575752.spanish-unionist-raises-prospect-vetoing-scotlands-membership-eu/

 

 

Quote

Esteban González Pons on Monday said his centre-right Partido Popular (PP) would block any application from an independent Scotland if the UK was still negotiating its own exit from the bloc.

And - countering widely held views elsewhere in Europe - he said that even if Scotland waited till after Brexit, it would have to wait in a queue behind Turkey and Serbia.

 

Well, Brexit is complete, the queuing is always based on meeting criteria... plus him saying Turkey is basically head of the queue.... nonsense.... The EU will never accept Turkey so it will always be queued at the bottom.

[IvorBiggun2]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Anyway - what's that got to do with Scottish independence?

It's got plenty to do with Scottish independence. One vote against Scotland joining and its bye bye Scotland. Spain have already stated, many times, that they will vote against. How straight forward that.