SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[kingdong]

On 3/8/2021 at 11:52 AM, Surelynot said:

Link?

??????he gave a personal opinion,and gave a personal prediction on the possible outcome,how could he provide a link?

[pacovl46]

On 3/8/2021 at 12:09 PM, herfiehandbag said:

I think that I explained quite clearly that the Brexit referendum was a UK wide vote, in which the Scots had just as much right to vote as anyone else. The people of the UK voted, and the people of the UK decided. Now those calling for independence may not like that, but it is the case.

 

Secondly, I am not suggesting that I am deciding the fate of millions of people, or of future generations. The Scots themselves decided the fate of their millions of people when they rejected independence, for at least a generation. They decided their fate was to remain in the UK, where they have absolutely the same voting rights as everyone else. I know that the definition of a "generation" is certainly vague, but it is certainly more than 6 years!

 

FInally, perhaps I could remind you that the EU is ( despite pretensions and ambitions in certain quarters) essentially a trading block, not a unified nation with a Parliament and executive elected by universal suffrage throughout the Kingdom. That is a very important difference.

Sigh! 

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

They had a vote recent!y,how many more do they want?

As many as they decide to have.

[kingdong]

14 minutes ago, Sujo said:

As many as they decide to have.

Then let scotland pay for them,you dont get owt for nowt lad.

[RuamRudy]

18 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have faith like last time that the majority of Scots are happier in the Union than on their own. So don't try and put words in my mouth.

The majority of Scots voted to leave the UK in 2014. The majority of people residing in Scotland now seem to want to leave. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, kingdong said:

They had a vote recent!y,how many more do they want?

As many as we wish. 

[sandyf]

On 3/8/2021 at 5:05 PM, robblok said:

So how can it still live so long in Scotland i mean talking 150-250 years ago. I mean how is it that that sentiment has not died down. 

It had gone away but brexit has stirred things up again.

I was brought up in the north east of Scotland just after the war. During the war the area had been heavily dependent on the Polish army and many remained after the war, several offspring in my class at school. Post war, 2 airfields in the area became major operational bases that brought an influx of English people to the area, many of whom remained after they left. Everyone co existed in a very friendly environment.

Brexit changed all that, the way Westminster trampled over the Scottish government was a stark reminder of how Scotland had been treated in the past. But what probably cut deeper was the brexiteers attitude to the Poles. People that had integrated into Scottish society for nearly 70 years being classed as parasites did not go down well. 

Is it any wonder animosity has grown, and the brexiteers just refuse to acknowledge the part they played.

[robblok]

22 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It had gone away but brexit has stirred things up again.

I was brought up in the north east of Scotland just after the war. During the war the area had been heavily dependent on the Polish army and many remained after the war, several offspring in my class at school. Post war, 2 airfields in the area became major operational bases that brought an influx of English people to the area, many of whom remained after they left. Everyone co existed in a very friendly environment.

Brexit changed all that, the way Westminster trampled over the Scottish government was a stark reminder of how Scotland had been treated in the past. But what probably cut deeper was the brexiteers attitude to the Poles. People that had integrated into Scottish society for nearly 70 years being classed as parasites did not go down well. 

Is it any wonder animosity has grown, and the brexiteers just refuse to acknowledge the part they played.

Yes what i heard was that a lot of Brexiteers really saw it as a way to curb immigration and to get foreigners out. Using freedom of Europe as an excuse. A large part of the Brexiteers are to put it mildly "not happy with foreingers".

Its a sign of how the Brits often think, they don't negotiate they want it their way. The Scots felt it. Its probably also why they did not do good in Europe as they don't like negotiating and compromises. They want it their way..  something they could in the past when they were important and had an emprire. That mindset is not yet gone. The French and Dutch and many others understand far better how negotiating works. Its normal not to get your way in Europe, but if you negotiate well you get part of what you want.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

As many as we wish. 

Presumably "we" in this context would be the minority of nationalists who voted to leave in 2014?

[JonnyF]

21 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes what i heard was that a lot of Brexiteers really saw it as a way to curb immigration and to get foreigners out. Using freedom of Europe as an excuse. A large part of the Brexiteers are to put it mildly "not happy with foreingers".

Its a sign of how the Brits often think, they don't negotiate they want it their way. The Scots felt it. Its probably also why they did not do good in Europe as they don't like negotiating and compromises. They want it their way..  something they could in the past when they were important and had an emprire. That mindset is not yet gone. The French and Dutch and many others understand far better how negotiating works. Its normal not to get your way in Europe, but if you negotiate well you get part of what you want.

The first paragraph is nonsense. There were a million different reasons for Brexit.

The second part has some merit. Many of us don't wish to negotiate with Brussels about how we run our country. We don't want to compromise on how we run our country. Certainly not with an institution that is so inflexible and is essentially an undemocratic Franco/German run club where Germany essentially does what it likes where the others have to follow the rules.

So in the circumstances, given the fact that we want to run our country how WE want and not negotiate with Brussels on how to do this, it was probably best that we left, no? 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The first paragraph is nonsense. There were a million different reasons for Brexit.

The second part has some merit. Many of us don't wish to negotiate with Brussels about how we run our country. We don't want to compromise on how we run our country. Certainly not with an institution that is so inflexible and is essentially an undemocratic Franco/German run club where Germany essentially does what it likes where the others have to follow the rules.

So in the circumstances, given the fact that we want to run our country how WE want and not negotiate with Brussels on how to do this, it was probably best that we left, no? 

Sure from a point of view that you need freedom sure, now same goes for the Scots. If your no hypocrite then you see that too.

I have only ever argued that leaving the EU is stupid from an financial / trade point of view. That how i see most things. Because in the end of the day people care about how much money they have to spend. (most of us anyway)

Af for the first paragraph, I think this was certainly a reason, but not the only reason. It might not be a reason for you. But it was used in the election propaganda for Brexit. Though i think its a stupid reason (you might have a bit more freedom keeping people out) however you have so many agreements with ex parts of the empire about immigration that just cutting one source of foreigners (from europe) is not a solution.

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Presumably "we" in this context would be the minority of nationalists who voted to leave in 2014?

A minority of people voted for Brexit; a minority of people voted for our incompetent fool of a PM and his corrupt party. What's your point?

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The first paragraph is nonsense. There were a million different reasons for Brexit.

The second part has some merit. Many of us don't wish to negotiate with Brussels about how we run our country. We don't want to compromise on how we run our country. Certainly not with an institution that is so inflexible and is essentially an undemocratic Franco/German run club where Germany essentially does what it likes where the others have to follow the rules.

So in the circumstances, given the fact that we want to run our country how WE want and not negotiate with Brussels on how to do this, it was probably best that we left, no? 

When you 'many of us' and 'we want to run our country how WE want' you mean 'no more than 37% of us', of course. 

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

A minority of people voted for Brexit; a minority of people voted for our incompetent fool of a PM and his corrupt party. What's your point?

My point is that Brexit was 52/48 leave and Indyref was 55/45 Remain.

Losers consent.

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

When you 'many of us' and 'we want to run our country how WE want' you mean 'no more than 37% of us', of course. 

I mean the 52% that voted to Leave. As opposed to the 48% that wished to Remain.

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

Sure from a point of view that you need freedom sure, now same goes for the Scots. If your no hypocrite then you see that too.

I have only ever argued that leaving the EU is stupid from an financial / trade point of view. That how i see most things. Because in the end of the day people care about how much money they have to spend. (most of us anyway)

Af for the first paragraph, I think this was certainly a reason, but not the only reason. It might not be a reason for you. But it was used in the election propaganda for Brexit. Though i think its a stupid reason (you might have a bit more freedom keeping people out) however you have so many agreements with ex parts of the empire about immigration that just cutting one source of foreigners (from europe) is not a solution.

Yep the Scots had their vote, as did we. Fair's fair.

The slogan was 'taking back control', not 'getting rid of foreigners'.

[robblok]

20 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have faith like last time that the majority of Scots are happier in the Union than on their own. So don't try and put words in my mouth.

If that is the case there is nothing to worry about by letting them vote and have their say and put this to bed.

[JonnyF]

28 minutes ago, robblok said:

If that is the case there is nothing to worry about by letting them vote and have their say and put this to bed.

That's what happened in 2014.

[kingdong]

31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

A minority of people voted for Brexit; a minority of people voted for our incompetent fool of a PM and his corrupt party. What's your point?

How did we get brexit if only a minority of people voted for it? And after the disgracefull 3 years of antics from a hung remainer government, a 2 horse race peop!es election was held between brexit boris and momentum,sorry,corbyn,and what happened? The asinos bottles went and boris won by 80 odd seats. 

[kingdong]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

That's what happened in 2014.

And if they lose again,why try try again and again,perhaps they should deduct the cost of the election from the " free " education and prescriptions they currently enjoy.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, kingdong said:

How did we get brexit if only a minority of people voted for it? 

Because barely 1 in 3 of the electorate backed it and the rules are such that this is sufficient. Hence the point that JonnyF objects to my use of We when talking about Scots, but is happy to use We when talking about Brexit in terms of the UK population. 

 

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, kingdong said:

And if they lose again,why try try again and again,perhaps they should deduct the cost of the election from the " free " education and prescriptions they currently enjoy.

Nothing is 'free' but England could enjoy such things too if only you voted for better, less corrupt governments who prioritise the general population rather than their small number of friends and donors. 

£37 billion for a phone app that has been an abject failure and an international embarrassment?  That is more than the entire Scottish budget for 1 year. Think how many students that would pay for; think how many prescriptions that would cover. But you choose to let the Tories steal it from you. 

[kingdong]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Nothing is 'free' but England could enjoy such things too if only you voted for better, less corrupt governments who prioritise the general population rather than their small number of friends and donors. 

£37 billion for a phone app that has been an abject failure and an international embarrassment?  That is more than the entire Scottish budget for 1 year. Think how many students that would pay for; think how many prescriptions that would cover. But you choose to let the Tories steal it from you. 

If you want an example of waste look at tfl and their losses led by labours sadiq khan,talk about jobs for the boys.

Edited March 11, 2021 by kingdong

[JonnyF]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Because barely 1 in 3 of the electorate backed it and the rules are such that this is sufficient. Hence the point that JonnyF objects to my use of We when talking about Scots, but is happy to use We when talking about Brexit in terms of the UK population. 

 

You can use We to talk about the Scots, just acknowledge that 55% of "We" (in that context) voted to stay in the UK.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You can use We to talk about the Scots, just acknowledge that 55% of "We" (in that context) voted to stay in the UK.

Of course, although that was a generation ago, as defined in the Anglo Irish Agreement.

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Of course, although that was a generation ago, as defined in the Anglo Irish Agreement.

Parliament will decide if and when there is another referendum. 

Parliament is sovereign, not your amnesiac leader.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Parliament will decide if and when there is another referendum. 

Parliament is sovereign, not your amnesiac leader.

But it's not a good look, is it? The party in power having only 11% of Scottish MPs, telling Scots what they are going to get despite 85% of the country's elected MPs demanding something else? Doesn't sound very democratic to me. 

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But it's not a good look, is it? The party in power having only 11% of Scottish MPs, telling Scots what they are going to get despite 85% of the country's elected MPs demanding something else? Doesn't sound very democratic to me. 

Well, you had a Democratic referendum and voted to Remain, so there I'd say that's pretty Democratic.

Certainly more democratic than anything you'd experience when voting for who sits in the EU commission.

 

[Rimmer]

A rather vulgar post has been removed

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

If that is the case there is nothing to worry about by letting them vote and have their say and put this to bed.

As I said I have faith in the result. S

o should the UK government do what your government did and ignore a referendum result.

Why doesn't the EU give every member a vote on leaving as the dynamics have changed the UK has left.

I think I know your answer