SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Then the 2014 referendum result has been respected, even as our corrupt PM announces that he will refuse to recognise the democratic will of the Scottish people should they choose, once again (for the 76th consecutive year) to show just how much Scotland despises the Nasty Party and everything it has to offer. Now that surely is the hallmark of a banana republic? 

But that is the whole crux of the debate, the 2014 referendum has not been respected, there is a vast difference between respecting a vote and having no other choice but to go along with it.

If you really despise the "nasty party" well why do you and others keep voting for it. But fear not the SNP are losing traction in every department now.

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Holding a sovereign nation within an empire against its will is frowned upon by international courts.

Last one I can remember doing it was Slobodan Milosevic.

 

Nobody is holding anybody againgst its will, the Scots voted to remain and we should all respect democratic decisions. Simples.????

[Rookiescot]

Just now, vogie said:

Nobody is holding anybody againgst its will, the Scots voted to remain and we should all respect democratic decisions. Simples.????

Refusing a referendum is holding a nation against its will. If Johnson was confident of a win he would not be coming out with his opposition to another one. There is no democracy in holding a country hostage.

Face it. The UK is no longer united. Its broken. Thats what happens when you vote for alt right English nationalists and Brexiteers.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

But that is the whole crux of the debate, the 2014 referendum has not been respected, there is a vast difference between respecting a vote and having no other choice but to go along with it.

If you really despise the "nasty party" well why do you and others keep voting for it. But fear not the SNP are losing traction in every department now.

Are you suggesting that the democratic right to protest, a fundamental right afforded to every person in the UK, should not apply to Scots who oppose their country's continued membership of the United Kingdom? Should we give up on the right to freedom of speech or the right to hold an opinion if it differs from government policy?

I think you and I both know - there is only one party in the UK that punishes the poor and forces children into poverty as a matter of policy - and it isn't the SNP. But you keep supporting them - personally, if I voted Tory I wouldn't be able to sleep at night or look myself in the mirror knowing that I enabled and facilitated the despair and the utter hopelessness that so many hundreds of thousands of people are enduring daily because of the Tory Party. But then again, that's maybe just me. 

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Refusing a referendum is holding a nation against its will. If Johnson was confident of a win he would not be coming out with his opposition to another one. There is no democracy in holding a country hostage.

Face it. The UK is no longer united. Its broken. Thats what happens when you vote for alt right English nationalists and Brexiteers.

But here we go again, you were not refused a referendum, you were granted one, it is no-ones fault but your own that the result didn't go the way you wanted it to go.

It reminds me of the poster who said I am a unionist but also a democrat, he is so democratic that he won't respect a referendum and he is so much of a unionist, he wants the union to split up, you really couldn't make it up what we are privileged to read on here for free, don't you agree rookie. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

But here we go again, you were not refused a referendum, you were granted one, it is no-ones fault but your own that the result didn't go the way you wanted it to go.

It reminds me of the poster who said I am a unionist but also a democrat, he is so democratic that he won't respect a referendum and he is so much of a unionist, he wants the union to split up, you really couldn't make it up what we are privileged to read on here for free, don't you agree rookie. 

Again you fail to recognise that people are allowed to change their minds. Why do we have general elections every 5 years (even sooner if it suits the purposes of Brexiteers) but we cant hold a referendum on independence?

Its pure hypocrisy. 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

It reminds me of the poster who said I am a unionist but also a democrat, he is so democratic that he won't respect a referendum and he is so much of a unionist, he wants the union to split up

It was I who said that.

I do respect the 2014 referendum result. But as I and others have said many times; the UK which Scotland voted to remain a part of then was a UK which was also a member of the EU. That is no longer true.

As a democrat I believe that such a fundamental change in the UK's status means that Scots should have the opportunity to decide if they want to remain part of this new UK or not.

Surely, considering how much you have posted about your firm belief in democracy over the last four and a half years, you must also believe that they should have the democratic right to decide that for themselves?

Of course, as a unionist I hope that given that opportunity they vote to remain. From your remarks, I guess you do, too.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

19 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Surely, considering how much you have posted about your firm belief in democracy over the last four and a half years, you must also believe that they should have the democratic right to decide that for themselves?

People by their very nature are often hypocritical, the question is -- do you respect democracy even on very important fundamental national questions (where the nation as a whole may no longer survive)... or do you subjugate one of your 'beliefs' to be secondary to the other.  If you say you are a democrat, then that must be above all else (IMHO).  So a Democrat then a Unionist... if you subjugate Democracy to Unionist then you think that Union is more important than democracy and then you really are not so much a democrat.  When it comes down to it, most people say they believe in democracy but then subjugate it to something else... 

If you are a democrat (IMHO) you have to believe that the power rests with the people and they should have the right to chose - and if the situation fundamentally changes or enough time is passed (for Northern Ireland it is 7 years I believe) you have a chance to change your position going forward.   In many ways the US States that have the ability for citizens to put a proposition forward (referendum) if they can gather enough verified signatures is much more democratic.  

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[stevenl]

7 hours ago, Sjptain said:

I'm a Jock and probably sitting on the fence in this one, i've asked questions (Taxes, Currency, Consulates, Armed Forces, etc.,) and never got any plausible answers. I don't think it has been thought thru' and while many want it, i'd say they would regret it later. The First vote and Brexit IMHO were not thought through - they should have set clear targets to initiate things - a 51% vote for is not sufficient, and the bar should have been set 75%/80% to initiate a move forward. The rules were set and Salmond/Sturgeon agreed that it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, BREXIT happened and it was a separate democratic vote again with no clear definition.

I'm sure many here have differing opinions, and i don't blame the English voting to get rid of us the way SNP pushes for it, i'd vote to get rid of them by giving what they want and watch them amble along as if nothing happened.

It isn't even about the result of the vote, much more about the right to vote.

[vogie]

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Again you fail to recognise that people are allowed to change their minds. Why do we have general elections every 5 years (even sooner if it suits the purposes of Brexiteers) but we cant hold a referendum on independence?

Its pure hypocrisy. 

Would it be fair to say that only agreeing with results when it goes your way is hypocrisy. 

Again you fail to recognise that people are allowed to change their minds.

Again there isn't any evidence that "people" have changed their minds, you keep saying it doesn't alter that fact. You asked (SNP) for a referendum, you were given a referendum in 2014, it doesn't get any more democratic than that. The result of that referendum has never been giving the respect and consent it so richly deserves, you may not agree with the result but you should agree to the result, that is how democracy works, but there again the SNP are a strange kettle of fish but at last the followers of them are beginning to see through them. 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

Would it be fair to say that only agreeing with results when it goes your way is hypocrisy. 

Again you fail to recognise that people are allowed to change their minds.

Again there isn't any evidence that "people" have changed their minds, you keep saying it doesn't alter that fact. You asked (SNP) for a referendum, you were given a referendum in 2014, it doesn't get any more democratic than that. The result of that referendum has never been giving the respect and consent it so richly deserves, you may not agree with the result but you should agree to the result, that is how democracy works, but there again the SNP are a strange kettle of fish but at last the followers of them are beginning to see through them. 

 

 

Vogie. The SNP are going into the May Holyrood election with a policy of having another referendum.

If they win, and thats looking likely, then that is the Scottish people giving them a mandate to hold one.

Thats democracy.

Pointing at a referendum from 2014 which was won using lies and deceit then saying you had a referendum now you are not allowed another one because I might not like the result is not democracy.

[bert bloggs]

13 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you suggesting that the democratic right to protest, a fundamental right afforded to every person in the UK, should not apply to Scots who oppose their country's continued membership of the United Kingdom? Should we give up on the right to freedom of speech or the right to hold an opinion if it differs from government policy?

I think you and I both know - there is only one party in the UK that punishes the poor and forces children into poverty as a matter of policy - and it isn't the SNP. But you keep supporting them - personally, if I voted Tory I wouldn't be able to sleep at night or look myself in the mirror knowing that I enabled and facilitated the despair and the utter hopelessness that so many hundreds of thousands of people are enduring daily because of the Tory Party. But then again, that's maybe just me. 

Trouble is these days,being forced into poverty doesnt mean starving on the streets ,but not having the latest phone or not having the latest designer sneakers.

[vogie]

51 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Vogie. The SNP are going into the May Holyrood election with a policy of having another referendum.

If they win, and thats looking likely, then that is the Scottish people giving them a mandate to hold one.

Thats democracy.

Pointing at a referendum from 2014 which was won using lies and deceit then saying you had a referendum now you are not allowed another one because I might not like the result is not democracy.

The Scots voted to remain within our union and quite frankly you are not respecting their wishes whichever way you chose to look at it. When the SNP fails to accept the result of the 2014 and the 2016 respective referendums they can never be described as democratic and let us not forget that more than 340,000 Scots voted to remain in the UK than voted to remain in the EU. So let's not take our eye off the ball here, just because the SNP are more likely to get more votes that does not equate to the Scots wanting to leave our union. It has been suggested and if you believe polls which I know you sometimes do, depending which way the wind is blowing, that the SNP may no longer get a majority in Holyrood as previously predicted and you are no longer are holding on to a 'yes' vote any longer, the future is looking grim and glum for a Scottish Nationalist.????

 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

The Scots voted to remain within our union and quite frankly you are not respecting their wishes whichever way you chose to look at it. When the SNP fails to accept the result of the 2014 and the 2016 respective referendums they can never be described as democratic and let us not forget that more than 340,000 Scots voted to remain in the UK than voted to remain in the EU. So let's not take our eye off the ball here, just because the SNP are more likely to get more votes that does not equate to the Scots wanting to leave our union. It has been suggested and if you believe polls which I know you sometimes do, depending which way the wind is blowing, that the SNP may no longer get a majority in Holyrood as previously predicted and you are no longer are holding on to a 'yes' vote any longer, the future is looking grim and glum for a Scottish Nationalist.????

 

 

 

You have not addressed what I posted.

If the SNP win the Holyrood election in May with a policy of holding another referendum then that gives them a mandate to hold one.

Are you saying that mandate should be ignored? 

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Trouble is these days,being forced into poverty doesnt mean starving on the streets ,but not having the latest phone or not having the latest designer sneakers.

Do you think that that is maybe just a lie that tory voters (those with a conscience, at least) tell themselves so they feel less bad about the devastating impact their actions have on other people?

Poverty in the UK: a guide to the facts and figures

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, vogie said:

The Scots voted to remain within our union and quite frankly you are not respecting their wishes whichever way you chose to look at it. When the SNP fails to accept the result of the 2014 and the 2016 respective referendums they can never be described as democratic and let us not forget that more than 340,000 Scots voted to remain in the UK than voted to remain in the EU. So let's not take our eye off the ball here, just because the SNP are more likely to get more votes that does not equate to the Scots wanting to leave our union. It has been suggested and if you believe polls which I know you sometimes do, depending which way the wind is blowing, that the SNP may no longer get a majority in Holyrood as previously predicted and you are no longer are holding on to a 'yes' vote any longer, the future is looking grim and glum for a Scottish Nationalist.????

 

 

 

The SNP currently do not have a majority in Holyrood - the D'Hondt system of PR is specifically designed to prevent any one party getting a majority. But you are forgetting that the SNP is not the only supporter of independence for Scotland - and that is why there already exists a majority of MSPs representing parties in favour of independence. 

But even if they fail to get a majority, surely it is votes that count? The Tories took 43% of votes in the last GE whereas the SNP in Scotland took 47%. Unless you intend to resort to gerrymandering the figures, there is no way that anyone can suggest that Johnson has a mandate on 43% but Sturgeon hasn't on 47%. 

[Neeranam]

What are the odds of becoming independent in my lifetime(40ish years)? 

[Bluespunk]

56 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Trouble is these days,being forced into poverty doesnt mean starving on the streets ,but not having the latest phone or not having the latest designer sneakers.

No it doesn’t. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Bluespunk

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What are the odds of becoming independent in my lifetime(40ish years)? 

The way I see it, there has to be radical change in the power structure of the UK. Whether that means its dissolution or its reduction in size, or the introduction of real federalism, I don't know - but the status quo cannot continue, especially as it is no longer solely the dissatisfaction of Scottish voters that Westminster has to contend with. Whatever happens next, I believe that fundamental change is inevitable. 

 

[vogie]

41 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You have not addressed what I posted.

If the SNP win the Holyrood election in May with a policy of holding another referendum then that gives them a mandate to hold one.

Are you saying that mandate should be ignored? 

Serious question: Does the SNP have anything else in their manifesto other than partitioning the UK?

I am saying democracy should not be ignored.

Edited March 13, 2021 by vogie

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Serious question: Does the SNP have anything else in their manifesto other than partitioning the UK?

I am sayong democracy should not be ignored.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50561073

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What are the odds of becoming independent in my lifetime(40ish years)? 

About as much chance as me using my rowing machine other than a coat hanger.

[Surelynot]

1 hour ago, bert bloggs said:

Trouble is these days,being forced into poverty doesnt mean starving on the streets ,but not having the latest phone or not having the latest designer sneakers.

Hence the terms absolute and relative.

[Bluespunk]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Serious question: Does the SNP have anything else in their manifesto other than partitioning the UK?

I am saying democracy should not be ignored.

This is from 2 years ago- I imagine a lot of it still applies. I’m sure more detailed copies can be obtained. 
 

https://www.snp.org/snp-manifesto-2019-scotlands-future-in-scotlands-hands/

Edited March 13, 2021 by Bluespunk
Forgot to add link

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50561073

Number 1: Stop Brexit. 

Well that went well didn't it.????????????????

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Number 1: Stop Brexit. 

Well that went well didn't it.????????????????

What do you have against the SNP?

[Surelynot]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What do you have against the SNP?

Oh boy...should not have asked him that......

[vogie]

17 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What do you have against the SNP?

Probably about the same as some Scots Nats have against the Conservatives, but with nobs on. What have you got against English that doesn't go back 250 years?

In 5 or 6 years posting on here I have not said one derogatory word against the Scots (although one poster has evidence that I liked a post that he disagreed with) my paternal grandfather was Scottish and our family name belongs to the Stewart Clan, that said it doesn't mean that I like a party that is tearing not only the UK apart but also Scotland itself. It is very scary how the SNP is dividing Scotland, but that is how nationalism works.

Scottish politics is getting to a point of self destruct and to quote Muriel Gray "anyone brave enough to criticise Scottish politics right now not only deserves a medal but a safe house"

 

[Kwasaki]

Wait and see how they vote I guess. 

What will all the 1000's of Scots do who live and work in England. ?

My son in-law is from Edinburgh and he works in England and said he would not want Scotland to be independent, that's about all I understand of the situation. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Serious question: Does the SNP have anything else in their manifesto other than partitioning the UK?

I am saying democracy should not be ignored.

Regardless of whether they have other policies or not if they win the election with a policy of holding another referendum are you saying that mandate, given to them by the population of Scotland, should be ignored?