Expats living in Thailand high rise condos in the wake of the Florida disaster

[Jingthing]

Here is a more generic issue for people living in condos here.

I saw a t.v. interview with an expert that claimed to have witnessed hundreds of failed buildings globally (so maybe not that unusual) as he was talking about the life span of such condos. I think he was referring to U.S. construction then which is subject to U.S. codes which it's fair to presume are at least half decent. He said the normal life span was 50 years. Which he said was a reason why the Surfside building was under a critical 40 year inspection. So condos eventually fail, they are not built to stand for centuries, that really isn't news. Obviously all the failed ones don't fail as spectacularly as Oceanside, but surely many buildings are just eventually condemned because the cost of making them safe is not something the owners can possibly afford, even if it's possible to make them safe.

So in the context of foreign owned condos in Thailand, what's the process for a failed building?

Foreigners can't own land but often the land under the condo becomes more valuable than the structure in the best locations.

So do all the owners get well compensated if there is great value in the land, or are they generally stuck with an albatross?

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Here is a more generic issue for people living in condos here.

I saw a t.v. interview with an expert that claimed to have witnessed hundreds of failed buildings globally (so maybe not that unusual) as he was talking about the life span of such condos. I think he was referring to U.S. construction then which is subject to U.S. codes which it's fair to presume are at least half decent. He said the normal life span was 50 years. Which he said was a reason why the Surfside building was under a critical 40 year inspection. So condos eventually fail, they are not built to stand for centuries, that really isn't news. Obviously all the failed ones don't fail as spectacularly as Oceanside, but surely many buildings are just eventually condemned because the cost of making them safe is not something the owners can possibly afford, even if it's possible to make them safe.

So in the context of foreign owned condos in Thailand, what's the process for a failed building?

Foreigners can't own land but often the land under the condo becomes more valuable than the structure in the best locations.

So do all the owners get well compensated if there is great value in the land, or are they generally stuck with an albatross?

 

Does the condo association not own the property and the condo owners each own a share?

[SW Happy]

Now you know why Farangs can only but Condos and not houses.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Apparently it was the responsibility of the condo association and they they were in the process of getting it funded. 

 

It was a $15MM project spread over 136 units, that's an average of about $110K each.

 

It would be interesting to see an analysis to compare the economics of renting vs buying over the long term. 

 

I'm sure the appreciation over 40 years was more than $110K each unit.  But subtract the annual real estate taxes, monthly maintenance fees, the interim repair assessments and a reasonable annual reserve for "the big one" like they faced, maybe renting is a better decision.  Especially if you have an alternative to invest the principal.   

 

It's a lot easier to leave cash to your heirs than a white elephant that may require $110K before they can sell it.

 

In my mind, that's an appropriate (though admittedly less sensational) question to ask about investing in a Thai condo.

 

[kennw]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:16 PM, LomSak27 said:

Ancient History

 

There was a Hotel in Khon Kaen that collapsed in early 90's. Killed a few people as I recall. Long forgotten, the only reason I remember is because I stayed in the bleeding place, 89, a year before it collapsed. Must have been a mid range hotel recommended by Lonely Planet.

 

Thankfully that is one of the few in Thailand. Yep you would think more given the lack of regulations, but this was an exception. I believe it was Cairo Egypt which had repeated collapses back in those days, but you not going to retire there anyway so ..

I had lunch in the ground floor restaurant one week before the collapse. Investigation concluded it was due to illegally added water tanks on the roof to supply the massage parlors. The additional weight was just too much. Still remember the waitresses in the restaurant who perished. 

[kennw]

On 6/26/2021 at 3:06 AM, Damrongsak said:

From what I've read, the building was on some sort of filled area, and had subsided about 2mm per year for 30 years.  And the 40 year inspection was currently in process.   Ouch.

I suggest we wait for the subsequent report but as an Engineer my money is on re-bar corrosion in the outer columns causing spalling in the concrete. Rust expands and cracks the concrete. The compressive strength of the concrete is thus weakened and cannot support the weight it was carrying.  

[Scouse123]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Apparently it was the responsibility of the condo association and they they were in the process of getting it funded. 

 

It was a $15MM project spread over 136 units, that's an average of about $110K each.

 

It's a lot to find when you basically think you have paid everything except general maintenance for your condo.

[chrisandsu]

On 6/25/2021 at 7:12 AM, digbeth said:

This is in Pathum Thani, technically not a condo, but many of cheap charlies live in similar styled place in Pattaya 

Does buying your wife a house exempt you from being a cheap Charlie ? 

[impulse]

1 hour ago, chrisandsu said:

Does buying your wife a house exempt you from being a cheap Charlie ? 

 

And a related question: Does paying a lot for a condo shield you from shoddy workmanship?  Or are you just buying even more expensive problems?

 

[chrisandsu]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

And a related question: Does paying a lot for a condo shield you from shoddy workmanship?  Or are you just buying even more expensive problems?

 

Putting lipstick on a pig and all that …

[impulse]

31 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

Putting lipstick on a pig and all that …

 

Just 'cause you get more square meters, doesn't mean you get better square meters.  And big, fancy pants stuff costs more to fix...

 

[chrisandsu]

34 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Just 'cause you get more square meters, doesn't mean you get better square meters.  And big, fancy pants stuff costs more to fix...

 

Yep . I have often wondered why expats in Thailand (especially retired)get horny when they talk about quality materials that they are using and anything but those materials are cheap and nasty . Let’s be fair here when you are a certain age you are not outliving that house .  

[Stargeezr]

This building had known structural problems since 2018, and yet the people kept

living in it.  What kind of inspectors and engineers would let people live in a building

that was showing problems for 3 years.  i would not have very much respect for a

State in America that would let this kind of thing happen.  The relatives of these people

who died in this collapse should find out the facts and go after the builder, and the City 

where this building is in. 

Geezer

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

This building had known structural problems since 2018, and yet the people kept

living in it.  What kind of inspectors and engineers would let people live in a building

that was showing problems for 3 years.  i would not have very much respect for a

State in America that would let this kind of thing happen.  The relatives of these people

who died in this collapse should find out the facts and go after the builder, and the City 

where this building is in. 

Geezer

 

The inspectors and engineers told the condo association (the owners) and it was the condo association that was responsible for delaying the repairs.   

[sirineou]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:22 PM, worgeordie said:

I don't think we need to go there, enough worries with the Covid,

in Bangkok just as likely a condo to sink ,as fall down,the biggest

danger here are the roads.

regards worgeordie

 

What if the building fell on the road? 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

This building had known structural problems since 2018, and yet the people kept

living in it.  What kind of inspectors and engineers would let people live in a building

that was showing problems for 3 years.  i would not have very much respect for a

State in America that would let this kind of thing happen.  The relatives of these people

who died in this collapse should find out the facts and go after the builder, and the City 

where this building is in. 

Geezer

I don't know the specifics of the report, but just because a report said that there were structural problems it does not mean that these problems had the potential for a catastrophic event. Any problem in a portion of a building that is detrimental to the    structural integrity of that portion is a fractural problem. 

As someone with many years of professional experience in the industry, If I had to bet, I would bet that the collapse was caused by  either foundation problems and or geology. 

[Yellowtail]

9 hours ago, impulse said:

 

And a related question: Does paying a lot for a condo shield you from shoddy workmanship? 

 

No. It will generally be the same companies actually building the low end units as the high end units. 

 

9 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Or are you just buying even more expensive problems?

 

 

You are likely just buying a nicer location and or nicer amenities. 

 

[jomtienisgood]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:12 PM, digbeth said:

This is in Pathum Thani, technically not a condo, but many of cheap charlies live in similar styled place in Pattaya 

Yes correct, I remember that. It was still under construction.

[jomtienisgood]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

What if the building fell on the road? 

Traffic jam... ????

[jomtienisgood]

9 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

Putting lipstick on a pig and all that …

Exactly the same as injecting silicone in a katoey doesn't turn it into a girl.. 555555

[NoshowJones]

I had never heard of this JT, wonder why I missed it.

[DaLa]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:12 PM, Jingthing said:

Interesting.

But a case of total almost instant collapse as in Florida, I'm not aware of hearing about such incidents before. As has been mentioned on the news, it looked like an intentional demolition. 

 

I’m hoping there are no Engineers or architects that see your post and add it to their list of theories on this. Government job, insurance job, Biden was at a school miles away when he should have been at his condo.

 

I’ve already heard 2 other ‘eye’ witness reports of ‘it was like a bomb going off’ and wondering how long this will be before it’s added to the list of ‘proof’ ?

 

Anyway back to the reality. The estimate for the repairs were in the order of $110,000 per unit. Ok if you have a condo there facing the sea it may be presumed you have a reasonable cash pot. But what when you retire on a reduced income?

 

This isn’t an isolated case. Reinforced concrete structures have failed in the past and will continue to be vulnerable in the future. It will be very difficult for an occupier to fight those with a (financial) interest to do nothing, to then only burden themselves with a huge maintenance bill.

[jomtienisgood]

17 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

Does the condo association not own the property and the condo owners each own a share?

No, when you buy a condo you get the property act in Land Office...

[jomtienisgood]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

I had never heard of this JT, wonder why I missed it.

Who is JT??? 5555 Just curious. Must have some Th blood.

[Jingthing]

30 minutes ago, DaLa said:

 

I’m hoping there are no Engineers or architects that see your post and add it to their list of theories on this. Government job, insurance job, Biden was at a school miles away when he should have been at his condo.

 

I’ve already heard 2 other ‘eye’ witness reports of ‘it was like a bomb going off’ and wondering how long this will be before it’s added to the list of ‘proof’ ?

 

Anyway back to the reality. The estimate for the repairs were in the order of $110,000 per unit. Ok if you have a condo there facing the sea it may be presumed you have a reasonable cash pot. But what when you retire on a reduced income?

 

This isn’t an isolated case. Reinforced concrete structures have failed in the past and will continue to be vulnerable in the future. It will be very difficult for an occupier to fight those with a (financial) interest to do nothing, to then only burden themselves with a huge maintenance bill.

Don't be ridiculous.

I wasn't suggesting that it actually was an intentional demolition. 

Duh.

 

This was a middle class condo built in the 1980's. I reckon the majority of the now dead residents could not have paid that much to fix it. The condo officials probably knew that and chose denial because if they had faced the reality the building should have been condemned.

[NoshowJones]

Just now, jomtienisgood said:

Who is JT??? 5555 Just curious. Must have some Th blood.

Jingthing. that's the poster who started the topic.

[jomtienisgood]

6 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

Jingthing. that's the poster who started the topic.

Got it.... 

[DaLa]

On 6/26/2021 at 10:56 PM, Airalee said:

This one was quite shocking…from 2018

click through for full report

Didn't read all of them , however the main structural survey and subsequent report by Morabito Engineers only noted 'minor' spalling of the outer columns. I've witnessed many buildings and structures here and in other countries with similar erosion of the concrete and always known that the compressive strength is mainly borne by the mass concrete.  Additionally a safety factor is built in and will vary, but there will almost always  be  a degree.

 

Either there was a significant deterioration in the coming 2 years or there will be some serious repercussions to this for every owner / habitant of such structures.

[Yellowtail]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Don't be ridiculous.

I wasn't suggesting that it actually was an intentional demolition. 

Duh.

 

This was a middle class condo built in the 1980's. I reckon the majority of the now dead residents could not have paid that much to fix it. The condo officials probably knew that and chose denial because if they had faced the reality the building should have been condemned.

 

These were $500K to $1MM beach-front properties. The owners absolutely should have been able to fund or get loans to fund the repairs.  They also had time to sell (I wonder how many did) if there were not able to get funding. 

 

It is a tragedy, fortunately it did not happen in the winter... 

[kokesaat]

So, let's say you're on the 10th or 12th floor of the condo.  You hear a 'crack', maybe even a 'boom' at midnight-thirty.....do you run to the nearest elevator in your nightie?.......nope.  To the staircase....when you're 60 or 70?......nope.  You'll probably freeze and start saying your prayers that it's just a crack or a boom and not a collapse.  I suppose if there's a second or third crack or boom, you might take action, but I doubt you'd run for it on the first.