Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, actonion said:

The way this government treats  foreigners here  i feel very sure  being vaccinated will become  another part of the Visa rules..

 

No one can be forced to do anything,  its just a case of if you dont like it.. leave, .. but being vaccinated  or else  unless the visa agencies can find a way around it

Funny. Not so long ago expats were complaining if they couldn't get vaccinated here. That the Thai government was discriminating against them.

Edited November 3, 2021 by placeholder

[placnx]

7 hours ago, Salerno said:

And some people on the other side of the equation (far far less IMO) feel the need to over inflate the danger. This isn't an extinction event although sometimes when reading some posts you'd think it was.

This pandemic is not over yet. This virus has shown a remarkable ability to mutate into more dangerous variants! Let's not be complacent.

[placnx]

7 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I take it reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. What I said was a vaccinated person can spread covid. Is that a lie? yes or no will do.

What he meant was that you lied by not clarifying that the risk is greatly reduced after vaccination. So you were obscuring the main point. This misinformation creates hesitancy among people who had poor education and never learned to follow a logical argument.

[placnx]

6 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I get it all, but there is a large portion of people who will not vaccinate because of what I wrote. And those folks will also say they have a right not to take a vaccine to protect others. All those vaccines we've had throughout our lives were to protect myself. Never before have we been told to take a vaccine to protect others. Valid point.

It has been a hundred years since a pandemic of this magnitude. Back then, the technology did not exist to fight a rapidly mutating virus. The situation today has changed in so many ways. Prior to the China lockdown people could move from Wuhan to London and many other places by non-stop flights. The 1918 flu petered out because it killed too fast and could not travel by non-stop flights.

 

Today we have a virus that spreads before symptoms develop. It is therefore quite dangerous. It's especially appaling that health care workers dealing with old people refuse to be vaccinated. That's how far this anti-vax hysteria has gone. Rationally, society can require individuals to do certain things, and this includes vaccinations. How is Covid vaccination less important than measles?

[placnx]

6 hours ago, Scott said:

If you take a look at previous pandemics, going back to the middle ages, people have done some very strange things.  During the Bubonic plague, Jews were killed for causing the plague.  Some groups went around flagellating themselves in an attempt to appease God.   The social implications were enormous, so many died that peasants suddenly had value (think of how suddenly we needed and appreciated essential workers, like grocery store workers, etc.)

Some people will remember the HIV pandemic and the level of fear.  People were told kissing MIGHT cause AIDS, first responders refused to give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, mortuaries refusing to handle the bodies, etc..   

 

I was at a school in Bangkok when the bird flu epidemic occurred.  The school ended up closing, not so much because there was a big outbreak of flu, but because there was a big outbreak of hysteria among parents.  

 

We don't tend to act rationally when faced with an unknown or unfamiliar adversary.  As we get to know more and more about Covid, how it works, who is at extreme danger, which mitigation methods work better than others, we will hopefully be more rational in our reactions.

You make many good observations. In time we should get to that point, but our understanding of SARS2 is insufficient and treatments such as molnupiravir need to be readily available worldwide at affordable pricing. A large proportion of the world's population will need to be vaccinated by advanced vaccines.

[placnx]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

He did say he has been twice jabbed. As he is vaccinated why on earth would he actively seek to dissuade people from getting the vaccine?

The cause might be emotion over logic.

[simple1]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

One of the objections put forward by anti-vaxcers, and some who themselves have been vaccinated but engage in promoting anti-vax sentiments is not feeling they should take any vaccine for the benefit of others.

 

We’ve even had the laughable claim that ‘I’ve only ever taken a vaccine to protect myself’.  

 

Firstly all national/international vaccination programs have an objective of defeating a society wide disease threat; example the ‘fight against small pox’ was a program of vaccination to eradicate that scourge.

 

Secondly, promoting vaccination to protect others is a very effective means to encourage large numbers of people to get vaccinated. I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s witnessed younger members of families seeking vaccination in order to protect elderly parents/grandparents.

 

That the terminally selfish are themselves unable to even comprehend vaccination to protect others (despite several times in their life having been vaccinated to protect others) is only an insight into their own selfishness, it is not an argument against vaccination to protect others.

IMO much of this nonsense is driven by right of centre anti government political agendas.

 

FYI as an example Australia is using bio security legislation, to address the claim government has no 'rights' to enforce compliance for more forceful policies to combat Covid anti vaxxers e.g.. mandates. 

 

The human biosecurity emergency period under the Biosecurity Act 2015 will be extended for a further three months. The emergency period, which has been in place since 18 March 2020 to protect Australians during the COVID-19 pandemic, will continue until 17 December 2021.

 

https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-greg-hunt-mp/media/covid-19-emergency-measures-extended-for-a-further-three-months-0#:~:text=2 September 2021-,The human biosecurity emergency period under the Biosecurity Act 2015,continue until 17 December 2021.

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

The cause might be emotion over logic.

Or choice of where they get their information. The sites he links to are frequently removed.

[redwood1]

50 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Or choice of where they get their information. The sites he links to are frequently removed.

Gee what a surprise.........No one here would stoop to reporting posts would they?

[atpeace]

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

I assume you know only because they were removed. Did you ever wonder why?

Because a few of you keep reporting posts that you disagree with and the admins have to respect your fear.  Liabilities and private business is not an easy maze to navigate.  Most the non-vaxers here on TV aren't as militant.  I think most of their arguments don't hold up but they do seem more courageous and don't whine as often.  As I have stated many times, I'm a vaxer but am appalled by other vaxers on this thread.

 

When it comes down to it, it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.  If you don't fear or if you fear less,  you are the enemy.  They are incapable of discussing another's doubts in regards to vaccination and choose to team up and crush all alternative opinions.  

 

Funny thing is, I probably would support vaccine mandates.  I want this dumpster fire to end.  What I will never do is scream at others that express why they disagree with me.  Why would I?  Isn't the point to persuade?  

[redwood1]

3 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Because a few of you keep reporting posts that you disagree with and the admins have to respect your fear.  Liabilities and private business is not an easy maze to navigate.  Most the non-vaxers here on TV aren't as militant.  I think most of their arguments don't hold up but they do seem more courageous and don't whine as often.  As I have stated many times, I'm a vaxer but am appalled by other vaxers on this thread.

 

When it comes down to it, it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.  If you don't fear or if you fear less,  you are the enemy.  They are incapable of discussing another's doubts in regards to vaccination and choose to team up and crush all alternative opinions.  

 

Funny thing is, I probably would support vaccine mandates.  I want this dumpster fire to end.  What I will never do is scream at others that express why they disagree with me.  Why would I?  Isn't the point to persuade?  

This is a great post. that certain people here need to read......

 

But my bet is they will ignore every bit of this and continue as usual....

[Tony125]

41 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Because a few of you keep reporting posts that you disagree with and the admins have to respect your fear.  Liabilities and private business is not an easy maze to navigate.  Most the non-vaxers here on TV aren't as militant.  I think most of their arguments don't hold up but they do seem more courageous and don't whine as often.  As I have stated many times, I'm a vaxer but am appalled by other vaxers on this thread.

 

When it comes down to it, it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.  If you don't fear or if you fear less,  you are the enemy.  They are incapable of discussing another's doubts in regards to vaccination and choose to team up and crush all alternative opinions.  

 

Funny thing is, I probably would support vaccine mandates.  I want this dumpster fire to end.  What I will never do is scream at others that express why they disagree with me.  Why would I?  Isn't the point to persuade?  

His links lead to posts that were taken down because Youtube and Facebook said they will not post unreliable/unverifiable  or false info concerning vacccines or Covid.  Someone may load such BS  but it will be taken down when Youtube or FB spots them.

[Someone Else]

20 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Because a few of you keep reporting posts that you disagree with and the admins have to respect your fear.  Liabilities and private business is not an easy maze to navigate.  Most the non-vaxers here on TV aren't as militant.  I think most of their arguments don't hold up but they do seem more courageous and don't whine as often.  As I have stated many times, I'm a vaxer but am appalled by other vaxers on this thread.

 

When it comes down to it, it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.  If you don't fear or if you fear less,  you are the enemy.  They are incapable of discussing another's doubts in regards to vaccination and choose to team up and crush all alternative opinions.  

 

Funny thing is, I probably would support vaccine mandates.  I want this dumpster fire to end.  What I will never do is scream at others that express why they disagree with me.  Why would I?  Isn't the point to persuade?  

I've alerted a few messages here that contained verifiably blatant misinformation.   It had nothing to do with "fear" or my opinion, it was based on what I know to be true based on decades of professional experience.  I don't think that makes me a "monster".  

 

While I would agree there is plenty of poor behavior and superficial understanding of complex issues on both sides that hinders meaningful discussion, I'm don't see how spreading obvious misinformation could be characterized as "courageous".   

 

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

Gee what a surprise.........No one here would stoop to reporting posts would they?

If it's fake news or misinformation, it needs to be reported. Stunning anyone would even go to these sites. Luckily, posts like that aren't allowed here. Congrats to the mods.

[Jeffr2]

50 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Because a few of you keep reporting posts that you disagree with and the admins have to respect your fear.  Liabilities and private business is not an easy maze to navigate.  Most the non-vaxers here on TV aren't as militant.  I think most of their arguments don't hold up but they do seem more courageous and don't whine as often.  As I have stated many times, I'm a vaxer but am appalled by other vaxers on this thread.

 

When it comes down to it, it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.  If you don't fear or if you fear less,  you are the enemy.  They are incapable of discussing another's doubts in regards to vaccination and choose to team up and crush all alternative opinions.  

 

Funny thing is, I probably would support vaccine mandates.  I want this dumpster fire to end.  What I will never do is scream at others that express why they disagree with me.  Why would I?  Isn't the point to persuade?  

BS. The admins know it's fake so they remove it. You need to vet your news more carefully. Your links are super dodgy.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

Because a few of you keep reporting posts that you disagree with and the admins have to respect your fear.  Liabilities and private business is not an easy maze to navigate.  Most the non-vaxers here on TV aren't as militant.  I think most of their arguments don't hold up but they do seem more courageous and don't whine as often.  As I have stated many times, I'm a vaxer but am appalled by other vaxers on this thread.

 

When it comes down to it, it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.  If you don't fear or if you fear less,  you are the enemy.  They are incapable of discussing another's doubts in regards to vaccination and choose to team up and crush all alternative opinions.  

 

Funny thing is, I probably would support vaccine mandates.  I want this dumpster fire to end.  What I will never do is scream at others that express why they disagree with me.  Why would I?  Isn't the point to persuade?  

I’ll forgo responding to your comments on moderation, it’s not open for discussion.

 

I presume you have evidence of members ‘teaming up’, who knows you might even want to share it.

 

You are right most of the arguments put forward by anti-vaxers do not hold up.

 

Yes you’ve stated many times ‘you are a vaxer’ these statements reside within all the other statements you have made.

 

If alternative views are based on sound reason, science and data they can’t be ‘crushed’ alternative opinions based on misinformation or a misrepresentation of facts are of easily dispatched.

 

My personal view is anti-vaxxers need to raise their game, stop cutting and pasting misinformation from where it is they find it, read and check the references they use and desist from the intellectual dishonesty of telling half truths while omitting pertinent facts even when the omissions have been repeatedly pointed out.

 

Your assertion “it is just extreme fear that is transforming probably nice people on this thread into little monsters.” is an ad hominem.

 

I see a false flag.

 

[atpeace]

43 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

BS. The admins know it's fake so they remove it. You need to vet your news more carefully. Your links are super dodgy.

My links ? I don't think I posted a single link on this this thread. Possibly one but don't think so.  You have posted many dodgy articles.  The Miami Herald is your latest.  It supports your view and therefore the anecdotal evidence is fact. 

 

The admin removed a couple posts done in a 10 minute timeframe because someone reported they were offended. I'm not going to whine about it. The previous poster rambling about my Facebook post being removed is trolling.  I don't think I have made a FB post in months and years since anything other than pictures.  Fake news is Ok if your in this threads vaxer universe?

 

I'm  not angry  but sense you are scared witless.  Nothing wrong with you as a person other than you let worry dictate your identity.  You need to learn to empathize and care about all humans if possible.  I'm definitely not all loving but do make a concerted effort.  

 

Your echo chamber here on this thread is dangerous in an almost inconsequential manner but dangerous nonetheless.  Feeling consequential and important at the cost of hurting others is just weak and timid.  Listen and question and see where that gets you.  I think you would be surprised.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Someone Else said:

I'm don't see how spreading obvious misinformation could be characterized as "courageous". 

In fact it is illegal in Thailand. I recall in the Covid forum it was stated someone had been arrested for posting deliberate misinformation / disinformation , no idea how many since.

[atpeace]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

In fact it is illegal in Thailand. I recall in the Covid forum it was stated someone had been arrested for posting deliberate misinformation / disinformation , no idea how many since.

I think there are many that post or  read threads like this one from the sidelines that sincerely dislike misinformation but differentiate between the poster that doesn't care about the truth and those that do it unknowingly.  Many also realize we are not all-knowing and what we deem completely false one moment might be proven correct in the future. 

 

Regardless, listening and questioning is the better approach.  My better side that tries to keep the darkness at bay feels this way and that is the path I attempt to follow even when the path is not popular.

[KannikaP]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Precisely, you did it for selfish reasons and are incapable of understanding others might vaccinate for more altruistic  reasons.

 

The lack in some of altruism as s motivator is nothing new. 

 

But altruism is alive and well in many others.

 

That said, I’m not in the least bit bothered on why an individual gets vaccinated, so long as they do get vaccinated.

 

What’s very odd is getting vaccinated and then engaging in promoting anti-vaccine messages.

 

 

Had to look up ALTRISTIC on OED.  

Get vaccinated for any reason or another, belt & braces.

[redwood1]

25 minutes ago, simple1 said:

In fact it is illegal in Thailand. I recall in the Covid forum it was stated someone had been arrested for posting deliberate misinformation / disinformation , no idea how many since.

Is talking about the inventor of the PCR test disinformation?.....It sure seems to be....

Edited November 3, 2021 by redwood1

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, placnx said:

What he meant was that you lied by not clarifying that the risk is greatly reduced after vaccination. So you were obscuring the main point. This misinformation creates hesitancy among people who had poor education and never learned to follow a logical argument.

I know what he means and it doesn't make my statement any less true.

 

And you actually believe people will base their decision to vaccinate on what an anonymous poster thinks. I seriously doubt it.  

Edited November 3, 2021 by EVENKEEL

[BangkokBaksida]

2 hours ago, Someone Else said:

I've alerted a few messages here that contained verifiably blatant misinformation.   It had nothing to do with "fear" or my opinion, it was based on what I know to be true based on decades of professional experience.  I don't think that makes me a "monster".  

 

While I would agree there is plenty of poor behavior and superficial understanding of complex issues on both sides that hinders meaningful discussion, I'm don't see how spreading obvious misinformation could be characterized as "courageous".   

 

What gives YOU the right to decide what I should see?  Instead of reporting something that YOU consider to be verifiably blatant misinformation, why not rebut it?  That's what a man of principle would do.

 

For example, I'm an anti-COVID-vaxxer, but I am not afraid of anything you pro-vaxxers might say, even though I disagree with most of it.  And I would never dream of reporting your misinformation, as I believe in freedom of speech.

Edited November 3, 2021 by BangkokBaksida

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, BangkokBaksida said:

What gives YOU the right to decide what I should see?  Instead of reporting something that YOU consider to be verifiably blatant misinformation, why not rebut it?  That's what a man of principle would do.

Because misinformation is simply not allowed here whether or not you think it should stand and merely be rebutted. Misinformation is lies, it doesn't get equal time with the truth.

[BangkokBaksida]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Because misinformation is simply not allowed here whether or not you think it should stand and merely be rebutted. Misinformation is lies, it doesn't get equal time with the truth.

You just don't get it, do you?  The point is:  Who gets to decide what is "misinformation"?  You?  Your fellow pro-vaxxers?  How can we get to the truth when we are only allowed to hear one side of an argument?

[Jeffr2]

17 minutes ago, BangkokBaksida said:

What gives YOU the right to decide what I should see?  Instead of reporting something that YOU consider to be verifiably blatant misinformation, why not rebut it?  That's what a man of principle would do.

 

For example, I'm an anti-COVID-vaxxer, but I am not afraid of anything you pro-vaxxers might say, even though I disagree with most of it.  And I would never dream of reporting your misinformation, as I believe in freedom of speech.

Because if you rebutt it, and it's an obviously dodgy link, the mods have more work removing not only the original post, but all replies.

 

Freedom of speech does not allow you to post fake news. It's against forum rules, and it's illegal in Thailand. For good reasons.

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, BangkokBaksida said:

You just don't get it, do you?  The point is:  Who gets to decide what is "misinformation"?  You?  Your fellow pro-vaxxers?  How can we get to the truth when we are only allowed to hear one side of an argument?

Vet your sources before you post. Easy to do. Though some here seemto have a hard time doing it.

 

Mediabiasfactcheck.com

 

 

[atpeace]

3 minutes ago, BangkokBaksida said:

You just don't get it, do you?  The point is:  Who gets to decide what is "misinformation"?  You?  Your fellow pro-vaxxers?  How can we get to the truth when we are only allowed to hear one side of an argument?

Would be curious to know what threads he reported. Assume he a sensible bloke.   Perfectly within his right not to disclose but would be interesting.  There has been some obvious falsehoods posted here that I would keep but also understand why they are deleted.  The admins are in a tough spot.

[Jeffr2]

35 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Is talking about the inventor of the PCR test disinformation?.....It sure seems to be....

Depends on your source for information. Many articles about this are 100% fake news .

[Scott]

Please get back on topic.  False or misleading information is not permitted and should be reported and will be removed.  If you have information from a credible source, it will remain on the forum. 

 

Continued discussion on this subject is a comment on moderation and will result in a warning and suspension.