Pandemic of the unvaccinated????

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic, inflammatory and trolling posts removed. 

 

Do not continue to post videos without any explanation.  They will be removed and you will get a suspension.  

 

[frantick]

11 hours ago, cdemundo said:

You misinterpret.

Most use the thread for information, for entertainment, for an intelligent exchange of opinions.

As all of those are in short supply in "these threads" there is less and less interest in participating.

I agree.

[Scott]

Posts from unapproved sources and replies removed.   Continue and face a suspension.   YouTube is not a credible source.

[248900_1469958220]

Interesting developments in Sweden and Portugal....no longer allowed entry....even if vaxxed!!

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/portugal-sweden-slap-covid-entry-ban-on-israelis-including-those-vaccinated/

Edited September 6, 2021 by 248900_1469958220

[placeholder]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:11 PM, 248900_1469958220 said:

....and yes, even the fact that vaccinated still spread the virus makes an appearance....Covid passports for the vaccinated anyone??????  This is a VERY big paradigm change that I have been predicting and called a 'conspiracy theorist' for doing so. Do I feel vindicated???? YES!!

Stop posing as a martyr or a seer. Plenty of people have been predicting it. Me among them. And no one's been calling us conspiracy theorists. I just hope our prediction is correct.

Edited September 6, 2021 by placeholder

[Jeffr2]

8 hours ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

Interesting developments in Sweden and Portugal....no longer allowed entry....even if vaxxed!!

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/portugal-sweden-slap-covid-entry-ban-on-israelis-including-those-vaccinated/

And Denmark. And Italy. And.....

 

Tough times.

[ebice]

depends who you ask, who has and utilizes the correct data and truly knows what they are talking about.

8 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

And Denmark. And Italy. And.....

 

Tough times.

Situation is improving in Denmark, not so bad now.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/01/denmark-s-high-vaccination-rate-sees-covid-pass-ended-for-restaurants

[Virt]

9 hours ago, ebice said:

depends who you ask, who has and utilizes the correct data and truly knows what they are talking about.

Situation is improving in Denmark, not so bad now.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/09/01/denmark-s-high-vaccination-rate-sees-covid-pass-ended-for-restaurants

If you walk around here in Denmark it's not much that show signs of covid 19, other than sanitizers most places and old social distance stickers that have not been removed.

It is still expected that numbers might rise during the winter, but mostly amongst the unvaccinated groups, so as long the hospitals are not overrun it shouldn't be a problem.

 

As the article says i think we moved to this point where we are, because of restrictions, lockdowns, MASSIVE testing and now a good amount of people fully vaccinated.

Still not enough, but it seems to be ok for now.

 

The national serum institute release some Danish data today about those who were fully vaccinated with Pfizer and Moderna, and how often those types of fully vaccinated people get covid 19 and it's good news.

Link in Danish. https://files.ssi.dk/covid19/gennembrudsinfektion/rapport/gennembrudsinfektion-covid19-uge35-2021-83op

 

In Denmark 3.395.980 people had Pfizer and 7278 got covid 19 after their second shot (0,21%)

333.867 people had Moderna and 307 got covid 19 after second shot (0,08%)

 

In the period the data is from ( from our fist vaccination was given 27 Dec 2020 to 31 august 2021 ) 189.384 nonvaccinated/only first shot got covid 19.

21.498 of those were people who only had their first shot, but not second shot, so it 167..886 unvaccinated people who go covid 19 in that period.

 

Compare that to the low numbers of the fully vaccinated people who got covid 19, and it's pretty obvious the vaccines do their job and the unvaccinated people are in a much higher risk of getting covid 19.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sudarut]

On 8/9/2021 at 12:24 PM, DrPhibes said:

And as far as those bible thumping redneck Trumpette antivaxers (I normally don't point fingers or make such generalizations, but in this case...), they have nothing to fear.  The variant coming code named "The Rapture" will solve all their problems ????

Meanwhile all those Nihilistic fear porn loving Sniffy Joe vaxaholics are chasing their booster shots.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Sudarut

[Scott]

Posts from unapproved source and off-topic posts reported and removed.  

 

[Jeffr2]

16 hours ago, Sudarut said:

Meanwhile all those Nihilistic fear porn loving Sniffy Joe vaxaholics are chasing their booster shots.

Drinking again?

[i84teen]

Perhaps we don't really know since the MSM and others try to distort the data to fit the narrative of the day.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2021/vaccinated-counties-delta-hotspots/?itid=mr_health_1&itid=lk_interstitial_manual_15

https://www.thecollegefix.com/despite-95-vaccination-rate-cornell-today-has-five-times-more-covid-cases-than-it-did-this-time-last-year/

The 95 percent metric is falsely high because when the data were collected, few were vaccinated and, by necessity, the majority of those hospitalized were unvaccinated. Then breakthrough cases were no longer counted, yet states continued to collect data for another month or two. If breakthrough cases were being ignored, then only unvaccinated cases were counted, falsely creating that 95 percent figure.

The problem is when data are cherry-picked to present a pre conceived self serving  narrative. That is when science turns into propaganda. As the Seattle Times noted of the 95 percent figure, a “misguided and dangerous statement.” Going further saying, “But it’s not that simple and to oversimplify by calling it a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated’ will only make the problem worse.”
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/covid-19-now-a-pandemic-of-the-unvaccinated-not-so-fast/

[Credo]

1 hour ago, i84teen said:

Perhaps we don't really know since the MSM and others try to distort the data to fit the narrative of the day.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2021/vaccinated-counties-delta-hotspots/?itid=mr_health_1&itid=lk_interstitial_manual_15

https://www.thecollegefix.com/despite-95-vaccination-rate-cornell-today-has-five-times-more-covid-cases-than-it-did-this-time-last-year/

The 95 percent metric is falsely high because when the data were collected, few were vaccinated and, by necessity, the majority of those hospitalized were unvaccinated. Then breakthrough cases were no longer counted, yet states continued to collect data for another month or two. If breakthrough cases were being ignored, then only unvaccinated cases were counted, falsely creating that 95 percent figure.

The problem is when data are cherry-picked to present a pre conceived self serving  narrative. That is when science turns into propaganda. As the Seattle Times noted of the 95 percent figure, a “misguided and dangerous statement.” Going further saying, “But it’s not that simple and to oversimplify by calling it a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated’ will only make the problem worse.”
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/covid-19-now-a-pandemic-of-the-unvaccinated-not-so-fast/

I think the one cherry picking data is you.   The chances of a breakthrough infection are 1 in 5,000.  That's a pretty good record.   

Since the first group vaccinated were the elderly, they are the first to experience waning immunity.  It is also well known that the immune system in the elderly is less robust and that many did not show the same level of production of antibodies as younger people.  So, yes, they are at higher risk of breakthrough infections.   Still it remains low.   Very low, I might add.  

https://news.yahoo.com/one-5-000-real-chances-183201138.html

 

So, we know that breakthrough infections are most common among the elderly but the actual reasons are a little tricky.  Is it because of waning immunity or is because of a less vigorous immune response?   The other group that commonly have breakthrough infections are the immunocompromised.  Again, the bodies immune response and the production of antigens is less than those who are not.   But even with that you are 29 times more likely to end up hospitalized if you are unvaccinated than if you are vaccinated.   
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/08/breakthrough-infections

 

The variants are the big unknown, but variants can only occur when the virus is spreading.  The more vaccinations given, the more other mitigating efforts, such as social distancing and mask wearing, the fewer the infections and the less infections and the less infections the less mutations will occur.   
 

[cdemundo]

2 hours ago, i84teen said:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/covid-19-now-a-pandemic-of-the-unvaccinated-not-so-fast/

[As the Seattle Times noted of the 95 percent figure, a “misguided and dangerous statement.” Going further saying, “But it’s not that simple and to oversimplify by calling it a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated’ will only make the problem worse.”]

 

Interesting article makes good points about not minimizing the risks of COVID at this time.

As it says "not so fast", the pandemic is not over, and many who want the vaccines are unable to get them.

 

"Even more concerning, in Los Angeles County, 20% of COVID-19 cases in June were in vaccinated people, though it’s critical to note, the vaccine still protects against serious illness and death. "

 

So 80% of all cases were in unvaccinated, and of the 20% who were vaccinated they did not suffer from serious illness.

Most of what the Seattle Times article discussed was that a significant portion of the unvaccinated were unable to get a vaccine for reasons of access which are discussed.

It is not an endorsement of those who voluntarily choose not to be vaccinated.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, i84teen said:

Perhaps we don't really know since the MSM and others try to distort the data to fit the narrative of the day.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2021/vaccinated-counties-delta-hotspots/?itid=mr_health_1&itid=lk_interstitial_manual_15

https://www.thecollegefix.com/despite-95-vaccination-rate-cornell-today-has-five-times-more-covid-cases-than-it-did-this-time-last-year/

The 95 percent metric is falsely high because when the data were collected, few were vaccinated and, by necessity, the majority of those hospitalized were unvaccinated. Then breakthrough cases were no longer counted, yet states continued to collect data for another month or two. If breakthrough cases were being ignored, then only unvaccinated cases were counted, falsely creating that 95 percent figure.

The problem is when data are cherry-picked to present a pre conceived self serving  narrative. That is when science turns into propaganda. As the Seattle Times noted of the 95 percent figure, a “misguided and dangerous statement.” Going further saying, “But it’s not that simple and to oversimplify by calling it a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated’ will only make the problem worse.”
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/covid-19-now-a-pandemic-of-the-unvaccinated-not-so-fast/

A true denier of the  pandemic. Sad.

[Ryan754326]

10 hours ago, Credo said:

I think the one cherry picking data is you.   The chances of a breakthrough infection are 1 in 5,000.  That's a pretty good record.   

Since the first group vaccinated were the elderly, they are the first to experience waning immunity.  It is also well known that the immune system in the elderly is less robust and that many did not show the same level of production of antibodies as younger people.  So, yes, they are at higher risk of breakthrough infections.   Still it remains low.   Very low, I might add.  

https://news.yahoo.com/one-5-000-real-chances-183201138.html

 

So, we know that breakthrough infections are most common among the elderly but the actual reasons are a little tricky.  Is it because of waning immunity or is because of a less vigorous immune response?   The other group that commonly have breakthrough infections are the immunocompromised.  Again, the bodies immune response and the production of antigens is less than those who are not.   But even with that you are 29 times more likely to end up hospitalized if you are unvaccinated than if you are vaccinated.   
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/08/breakthrough-infections

 

The variants are the big unknown, but variants can only occur when the virus is spreading.  The more vaccinations given, the more other mitigating efforts, such as social distancing and mask wearing, the fewer the infections and the less infections and the less infections the less mutations will occur.   
 

1 in 5000? Okay…. I know two people who have had breakthrough infections, and I certainly don’t know 10,000 people. 

[cdemundo]

1 hour ago, Ryan754326 said:

1 in 5000? Okay…. I know two people who have had breakthrough infections, and I certainly don’t know 10,000 people. 

Well that certainly settles it in my mind. Those statistics can't be right.

 

[cdemundo]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:34 AM, Sudarut said:

Meanwhile all those Nihilistic fear porn loving Sniffy Joe vaxaholics are chasing their booster shots.

Hey give 'em a break. You know what they say about Nihilism: "That must be exhausting".

[Phoenix Rising]

6 hours ago, catturd said:

Some of the countries with highest vaccination rates also have some of the highest covid rates. But it's just data, maybe should ask this guy what he thinks.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fauci-warn-surprise-outbreak/

https://news.yahoo.com/rand-paul-sends-criminal-referral-203600465.html
https://nypost.com/2021/09/08/sen-cotton-wants-dr-fauci-probe-after-chinese-lab-funding-report/

Coincidence maybe, lets hope, but kinda suspicious.

 

And what is the ratio of serious illness or death among vaccinated people compared to the unvaccinated?

And please don't post any more links of turds going after Dr Faucci - there's enough crazy already in the world.

 

And hey, do keep up the anti-vaxx drivel. Just don't complain when the wheezing starts and they kick your anti-vaxxer behind out of the ICU.

I, for one, will be among those who give that a big fat "som nam naa!"

Edited September 9, 2021 by Phoenix Rising

[chessman]

Personally I think the mainstream media narrative has underplayed how disappointed governments and health officials must be with the current rise in cases. Yes, it was expected that mass vaccination wouldn’t stop all cases but I don’t think anyone expected so many cases in so many highly vaccinated countries.

 

but instead of turning to vaccination conspiracies, I attribute these issues with the difficulty of dealing with a new virus.  It seems so much of the anti-vax narrative has revolved around the fast development and roll-out of vaccines and this potentially meaning the vaccinations are unsafe when in reality it seems much more likely that such fast development would lead to vaccines that were not as effective as they could have been.

 

I also think we can take some solace in basic data from countries like Israel. This is the third Covid 19 wave in Israel and it has resulted in more cases but significantly less deaths than the previous two waves. 
 

[Scott]

Posts from unattributed sources have been removed along with false or misleading information and replies.   Continue and earn a suspension.  One member has.

 

 

[cdemundo]

On 9/9/2021 at 7:29 AM, chessman said:

Personally I think the mainstream media narrative has underplayed how disappointed governments and health officials must be with the current rise in cases. Yes, it was expected that mass vaccination wouldn’t stop all cases but I don’t think anyone expected so many cases in so many highly vaccinated countries.

 

but instead of turning to vaccination conspiracies, I attribute these issues with the difficulty of dealing with a new virus.  It seems so much of the anti-vax narrative has revolved around the fast development and roll-out of vaccines and this potentially meaning the vaccinations are unsafe when in reality it seems much more likely that such fast development would lead to vaccines that were not as effective as they could have been.

 

I also think we can take some solace in basic data from countries like Israel. This is the third Covid 19 wave in Israel and it has resulted in more cases but significantly less deaths than the previous two waves. 
 

 "I attribute these issues with the difficulty of dealing with a new virus. "

 

Yes, I think that is exactly "the moral of the story".

You are right on the money.

[cdemundo]

3 hours ago, placeholder said:

As soon as this doctor (who also opposes mask mandates) mentioned Marek's disease, I knew that he was full of it.

 

Author of 2015 vaccine study 'terrified' his work is being misinterpreted

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/author-of-vaccine-study-terrified-his-work-is-being-misinterpreted/89-4b4a66b7-46e4-49cf-814f-9f98ecfbb8fd

 

Yes, Marek's disease and its lack of relevance to COVID has been previously discussed in these threads.

[lucky2008]

16 hours ago, placeholder said:

Vaccines could affect how the coronavirus evolves - but that’s no reason to skip your shot

"Nothing in our paper remotely justifies an anti-vaccine stance. That misinterpretation – if it causes people to choose not to be vaccinated – will lead to avoidable, and tragic, loss of life. "

https://theconversation.com/vaccines-could-affect-how-the-coronavirus-evolves-but-thats-no-reason-to-skip-your-shot-165960

 

But what if we don't want to get vaccinated?  

Stop trying to ram this <deleted> down our throats.  

It quite sad that you constantly counter everything that goes against the narrative with MMA paid for propaganda.

If you think we're crazy now just wait to see what happens once you starting <deleted> around with our kids. 
 

[lucky2008]

14 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Yes, Marek's disease and its lack of relevance to COVID has been previously discussed in these threads.

And of course that's exactly what they want you to believe. 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, lucky2008 said:

But what if we don't want to get vaccinated?  

Stop trying to ram this <deleted> down our throats.  

It quite sad that you constantly counter everything that goes against the narrative with MMA paid for propaganda.

If you think we're crazy now just wait to see what happens once you starting <deleted> around with our kids. 
 

If you don't want to get vaccinated then you just get excluded from a lot of what society has to offer. Ya think this is new? Around the world for kids to attend school vaccinations are required. So the <deleted> around with your kids is a long established practice.

And it's the last refuge of those who live in denial of facts that they accuse those who counter their misleading arguments  of hawking "MMA paid for propaganda". Ya think that anyone who has an MD is actually an authority on epidemiology and virology? I get my information from experts. You get yours from those who are clearly unqualified. People who won't put their arguments into written words where they can be easily checked but resort to tendentious videos instead. I sometimes wonder if there's a pandemic of dyslexia raging among the anti-covid vaxxers.

[lucky2008]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

If you don't want to get vaccinated then you just get excluded from a lot of what society has to offer. Ya think this is new? Around the world for kids to attend school vaccinations are required. So the <deleted> around with your kids is a long established practice.

And it's the last refuge of those who live in denial of facts that they accuse those who counter their misleading arguments  of hawking "MMA paid for propaganda". Ya think that anyone who has an MD is actually an authority on epidemiology and virology? I get my information from experts. You get yours from those who are clearly unqualified. People who won't put their arguments into written words where they can be easily checked but resort to tendentious videos instead. I sometimes wonder if there's a pandemic of dyslexia raging among the anti-covid vaxxers.

What makes you think that people who don't want to take the vaccines are anti-vaxxers? The majority of us are very from that.

 

I have personally gotten every vaccine known to man. My children have had all required vaccines since birth. But let's get one thing straight, never have any of my kids been forced to inject something into their bodies without my approval.   

You say I get my information from unqualified people but that's not true.  There are thousands of professionals that have spoken out about what happening only to be shunned and ostracized by their peers for doing so. We are talking about people who have literally dedicated their entire life to science. Virologist, immunologist, vaccine developers, medical microbiologist, IV league medical professors, pulmonary medical specialists, and the list goes on. Are all these people quacks and unqualified to share their medical opinions? 

Please, be so kind and tell us who are the medical "experts" we should be following. Is it Fauci and his wife Christine? Rochelle Walensky, Albert Boulra, Alex Gorsky, Tal Zacks, or Soumya Swaminathan? Are these the "experts" you are referring to? 

Maybe we should keep replying on Google and fact checkers to give us all the answers? 





 

Edited September 11, 2021 by lucky2008

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, lucky2008 said:

What makes you think that people who don't want to take the vaccines are anti-vaxxers? The majority of us are very from that.

 

I have personally gotten every vaccine known to man. My children have had all required vaccines since birth. But let's get one thing straight, never have any of my kids been forced to inject something into their bodies without my approval.   

You say I get my information from unqualified people but that's not true.  There are thousands of professionals that have spoken out about what happening only to be shunned and ostracized by their peers for doing so. We are talking about people who have literally dedicated their entire life to science. Virologist, immunologist, vaccine developers, medical microbiologist, IV league medical professors, pulmonary medical specialists, and the list goes on. Are all these people quacks and unqualified to share their medical opinions? 

Please, be so kind and tell us who are the medical "experts" we should be following. Is it Fauci and his wife Christine? Rochelle Walensky, Albert Boulra, Alex Gorsky, Tal Zacks, or Soumya Swaminathan? Are these the "experts" you are referring to? 

Maybe we should keep replying on Google and fact checkers to give us all the answers? 





 

You should note that I wrote "anti covid vaxxers", not "anti vaxxers.

 

So you got your children vaccinated with other vaccines but not this one? So you have no problem with the government having the power to enforce the vaccination of children for some diseases? Just not in this case? Because in this case you know better?

 

And if there are so many qualified experts out there, who support your stance, why is it that you chose not to cite them but instead relied on some dubious MD who presents obviously misleading information? Information that was repudiated by the lead scientist of the study this MD cited.

 

As for who I'm relying on, it's virtually the entire community of scientists who are actually qualified to pronounce on the subject. And all you can do about it is claim that what the scientific community overwhelmingly agrees on is " MMA paid for propaganda." The same ridiculous kind of claim that science denialists of all stripes consistently resort to.

[lucky2008]

30 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You should note that I wrote "anti covid vaxxers", not "anti vaxxers.

 

So you got your children vaccinated with other vaccines but not this one? So you have no problem with the government having the power to enforce the vaccination of children for some diseases? Just not in this case? Because in this case you know better?

 

And if there are so many qualified experts out there, who support your stance, why is it that you chose not to cite them but instead relied on some dubious MD who presents obviously misleading information? Information that was repudiated by the lead scientist of the study this MD cited.

 

As for who I'm relying on, it's virtually the entire community of scientists who are actually qualified to pronounce on the subject. And all you can do about it is claim that what the scientific community overwhelmingly agrees on is " MMA paid for propaganda." The same ridiculous kind of claim that science denialists of all stripes consistently resort to.

Ok your right about everything you're the the winner, yay- Fellow members please give the is guy is trophy. 

There is no such thing paid propaganda on mainstream media - N O means NO.  Only science denialists of all stripes would claim such a thing.  

The vaccine is 100% safe and effective and so are all the boosters - They are only going to get better and better as they get retooled with every new variant that comes out. Get the Pfizer, that's the best one. With Johnson & Johnson you only need one shot! Isn't that that amazing? Moderna is not here yet, but they say that one is good too! But don't get the Chinese stuff, it's yucky.  Once your fully vaccinated, they'll put your vaccine status on a really cool app which you can then use to get into restaurants, sports events, and even the gym!  It won't even matter if your infected with Covid you'll still be able to get it!  No one will know. Only the stupid unvaxxed idiots will need to test if they want to do certain things hahaha 

There nothing wrong inoculating young children with a vaccine that doesn't prevent or cure - Let's hope the government uses their power to enforce mandatory vaccines on all healthy children around the world.  Let's let the government make the health decisions for our children. 

And in no way believe what all these conspiracy theory virologist, Immunologist, vaccine developers, medical microbiologist, IV league medical professors, pulmonary medical specialists. aniti-covid vaxxers / antivaxxers science denialist are saying- They are all idiots every last one of them. 

I hope I didn't forget anything you taught me today? 

 

[cdemundo]

2 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

Ok your right about everything you're the the winner, yay- Fellow members please give the is guy is trophy. 

There is no such thing paid propaganda on mainstream media - N O means NO.  Only science denialists of all stripes would claim such a thing.  

The vaccine is 100% safe and effective and so are all the boosters - They are only going to get better and better as they get retooled with every new variant that comes out. Get the Pfizer, that's the best one. With Johnson & Johnson you only need one shot! Isn't that that amazing? Moderna is not here yet, but they say that one is good too! But don't get the Chinese stuff, it's yucky.  Once your fully vaccinated, they'll put your vaccine status on a really cool app which you can then use to get into restaurants, sports events, and even the gym!  It won't even matter if your infected with Covid you'll still be able to get it!  No one will know. Only the stupid unvaxxed idiots will need to test if they want to do certain things hahaha 

There nothing wrong inoculating young children with a vaccine that doesn't prevent or cure - Let's hope the government uses their power to enforce mandatory vaccines on all healthy children around the world.  Let's let the government make the health decisions for our children. 

And in no way believe what all these conspiracy theory virologist, Immunologist, vaccine developers, medical microbiologist, IV league medical professors, pulmonary medical specialists. aniti-covid vaxxers / antivaxxers science denialist are saying- They are all idiots every last one of them. 

I hope I didn't forget anything you taught me today? 

 

Sadly there is no vaccine for logorrhea.

In Thailand there may not yet be sufficient evidence about COVID vaccinations.

In the US there is no need for close analysis of data to decide about the vaccines.

In the US it is clear that the unvaccinated are much more likely to be hospitalized and die from COVID.

But hey, "you are sticking it to the man" by not getting vaccinated.

 

In Thailand I don't think the vax reluctant are a significant number so your decision is no big deal.