Bitcoin price rises past $50,000 as rebound continues

[The Cipher]

9 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

the financial industry is already efficient, so you are not addressing any pains or problem in the financial industry here, my point exactly

Simple example: so right now when we want to receive a capital call wire from clients it takes 3-5 business days to settle after it has been directed and then it needs to be reconciled afterwards. No less than four (!) staff (in total across all parties) are needed for this process the number of staff and the time delay to process a simple funding transfer and the associated accounting could easily be, and is frequently, more. Every one of those staff makes $50-100k/yr.

 

Now if a few intelligently written lines of code process that transaction to an immutable ledger in minutes and for no more than a few dollars per transaction, how do you not see a massive efficiency gain? Now what if there were myriad opportunities like that across the plumbing of finance?

 

And hey, you might be right anyway and the whole thing goes to zero. Or maybe it goes to the moon! But either way we can't know the outcome with certainty. So what are we left with? The balance of probabilities and risk management of our portfolios and life decisions generally. And so once again, if I were to sit this out I'd need to be able to justify to myself why I am at zero exposure given my horizon and risk tolerance. I guess in the end life will sort out who did it right ????‍♂️.

[GrandPapillon]

to make a comparison that our crypto friends can understand, the world financial system is a mountain like the Himalayas, and cryptos are a few batons (a few tons if you will) of dynamites that think they can take down the mountain ????

 

not going to happen ????

 

Cryptos doesn't solve a pain or a world problem, it's that simple. It's simply a gadget or a speculative vehicle, like betting on the weather ???? 

[GrandPapillon]

2 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Simple example: so right now when we want to receive a capital call wire from clients it takes 3-5 business days to settle after it has been directed and then it needs to be reconciled afterwards. No less than four (!) staff (in total across all parties) are needed for this process the number of staff and the time delay to process a simple funding transfer and the associated accounting could easily be, and is frequently, more. Every one of those staff makes $50-100k/yr.

 

and how is that a world problem or a pain that needs fixing immediately?

 

not sure where you work, but we have SEPA and ACH in Europe and in the US respectively, and everything is automated, no manual work involved. Transfer takes 24h for SEPA and 1 or 2 business days for ACH because some regulatory compensation mechanisms are put in place between corresponding banks. That's hardly a tech issue, more like a legal requirement.

 

Are you sure you work in the financial industry? ????

[GrandPapillon]

10 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

 

 

Now if a few intelligently written lines of code process that transaction to an immutable ledger in minutes and for no more than a few dollars per transaction, how do you not see a massive efficiency gain? 

 

again, SEPA is free, and so is ACH, so again why pay a few dollars for a new tech when simple transfers are already free? and SEPA or ACH doesn't need to run on GPUs farms, so it's actually more eco friendly and cost efficient than cryptos.

Edited August 24, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[The Cipher]

Ok I gotta go to bed so I'm out after this but...

 

6 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

and how is that a world problem or a pain that needs fixing immediately?

 

not sure where you work, but we have SEPA and ACH in Europe and in the US respectively, and everything is automated, no manual work involved. Transfer takes 24h for SEPA and 1 or 2 business days for ACH because some regulatory compensation mechanisms are put in place between corresponding banks. That's hardly a tech issue, more like a legal requirement.

 

again, SEPA is free, and so is ACH, so again why pay a few dollars for a new tech when simple transfers that are already free? and SEPA or ACH doesn't need to run on GPUs farms, so it's actually more eco friendly and cost efficient than cryptos.

I think you might be thinking too small. The promise of blockchain is that is has the potential to replace clearinghouses (hyperlink) by doing a better job. Settlement and reconciliation staff and their associated costs? Gone or sharply reduced.

 

If you don't see any inefficiency in the current financial system then I really don't know what to tell you. Man, the information is out there. Here's a link to a paper on it. And oh, here's another one. Really not sure what else there is to say.

[GrandPapillon]

6 minutes ago, The Cipher said:

Ok I gotta go to bed so I'm out after this but...

 

I think you might be thinking too small. The promise of blockchain is that is has the potential to replace clearinghouses (hyperlink) by doing a better job. Settlement and reconciliation staff and their associated costs? Gone or sharply reduced.

 

If you don't see any inefficiency in the current financial system then I really don't know what to tell you. Man, the information is out there. Here's a link to a paper on it. And oh, here's another one. Really not sure what else there is to say.

don't need to read another startup propaganda paper that I know are full of "sh*t", read too many of them already ????

 

but you can't replace "clearinghouse", it's a legal requirement, not a tech issue. This is what you keep missing. CHs serve a role that cryptos can't replace. So you have one giant roadblock here ????

 

the financial system is already super efficient, nobody is complaining, except the crypto "enthusiasts" because they are desperate to use their tech for good use, which is not any good or efficient at the end.

 

Cryptos is not energy efficient, and will not address the elephant in the room, legal requirements of banking regulations which are not going to disappear overnight because cryptos enthusiasts decided so ????

 

it's a lost cause, dude. Use it for speculation and "beer money" trading, period ????

[ThailandRyan]

1 hour ago, GrandPapillon said:

these are PR stuff, same as in 2015, my point exactly. None of these projects or statements went any further than a Press Release. Try to find someone who use cryptos in his daily life to pay for stuff, like coffee, pizza, beers ????

 

that's right, they don't exist ???? and they never did despite claims by the cryptos enthusiasts that we would use those everywhere. They have been claiming this since 2003 ????

I use it for all my grocery shopping and online transactions.  Paid my BNH bill for my last endocrinology visit and then have used it for many other things.  It is done by using my Coinbase Crypto Visa Card.  I do get rewards also for using it of up to 4%.  Sure there is a conversion fee from crypto to fiat for using other types of Crypto one has designated, but that in itself is offset by the rewards earned and then the fact I use my USDC funds then there is no conversion fee.  Believe what you want, it is readily accessible and can be used anywhere a Visa card can be used.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by ThailandRyan

[GrandPapillon]

6 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

I use it for all my grocery shopping and online transactions.  Paid my BNH bill for my last endocrinology visit and then have used it for many other things.  It is done by using my Coinbase Crypto Visa Card.  I do get rewards also for using it of up to 4%.  Sure there is a conversion fee from crypto to fiat for using other types of Crypto one has designated, but that in itself is offset by the rewards earned and then the fact I use mu USDC funds then there is no conversion fee.  Believe what you want, it is readily accessible and can be used anywhere a Visa card can be used.

 

so you are not paying in cryptos, my point exactly. Your credit card is converting your crypto holdings, and it's not crypto that pays your coffee, you are still using the old system (credit card and local currency) to pay for your daily stuff ????

 

thanks for proving my point, nobody is paying in cryptos ????

Edited August 24, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[ThailandRyan]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

so you are not paying in cryptos, my point exactly. Your credit card is converting your crypto holdings, and it's not crypto that pays your coffee, you are still using the old system (credit card and local currency) to pay for your daily stuff ????

 

thanks for proving my point, nobody is paying in cryptos ????

You still do not get it do you.  I am spending crypto.  Until the day that Fiat currency disappears, which it may or may not do as the World banks switch to digital currencies, of course what was spent is converted back from crypto to fiat.  Still spending the crypto proceeds earned over the years and still ahead in what you call a game.  I can not spend the Stocks I own to buy items, but instead need to cash them out to use the funds, so tell me how one uses stocks differently then Fiat or Crypto for that matter.  You can't

[GrandPapillon]

Just now, ThailandRyan said:

You still do not get it do you.  I am spending crypto. 

 

no you are not. Maybe financials is not your strength and you are having issues with certain concepts. But your cryptos were sold to another currency to pay for your coffee.

 

It's like using your credit card in EUR or USD and saying you are paying your coffee in Thailand in USD or EUR. You are not. You are paying in THB.

 

and cryptos are not "financial security" like stocks, they are "coins", so your comparison was wrong here.

 

To buy coffee, your credit card sell your crypto into a local currency, and that's the old system. Period. Like they do with USD or EUR when you spend your money to buy stuff in another country. It's a simple "currency" exchange.

[ThailandRyan]

3 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

no you are not. Maybe financials is not your strength and you are having issues with certain concepts. But your cryptos were sold to another currency to pay for your coffee.

 

It's like using your credit card in EUR or USD and saying you are paying your coffee in Thailand in USD or EUR. You are not. You are paying in THB.

 

and cryptos are not "financial security" like stocks, they are "coins", so your comparison was wrong here.

 

To buy coffee, your credit card sell your crypto into a local currency, and that's the old system. Period. Like they do with USD or EUR when you spend your money to buy stuff in another country. It's a simple "currency" exchange.

https://www.cryptovantage.com/news/ask-cryptovantage-how-to-convert-crypto-to-real-money/

"The time has come! You are ready to take your Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency hodlings and turn them into cash, but how do you do that? There are actually quite a few ways to turn digital assets into fiat currencies (like USD), and there are even ways to pay with your crypto without ever converting it, which saves you fees on many fronts."

 

"It is also time to recognize that crypto IS real money, it has as much value as whatever fiat currency you get paid for your job. Of course, there are always circumstances where you will need actual fiat and are not able to use crypto, and that’s why you came here. In this week’s AskCryptovantage we will show you three main ways to convert your crypto into real money."

[GrandPapillon]

16 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

https://www.cryptovantage.com/news/ask-cryptovantage-how-to-convert-crypto-to-real-money/

"The time has come! You are ready to take your Bitcoin or other cryptocurrency hodlings and turn them into cash, but how do you do that? There are actually quite a few ways to turn digital assets into fiat currencies (like USD), and there are even ways to pay with your crypto without ever converting it, which saves you fees on many fronts."

 

"It is also time to recognize that crypto IS real money, it has as much value as whatever fiat currency you get paid for your job. Of course, there are always circumstances where you will need actual fiat and are not able to use crypto, and that’s why you came here. In this week’s AskCryptovantage we will show you three main ways to convert your crypto into real money."

like I said, you believe in fairy tales, and you are not paying in cryptos, the rhetoric from the crypto enthusiasts is hilarious, you are paying in "cryptos" but first we "convert" them ????

 

no wonder you guys are so confused with all that non-sense propaganda ????

[fdsa]

Despite @GrandPapillon usually speaks utter nonsense and irrelevant bs when it comes to crypto, I have to admit that in this particular point he is right - you are not paying with crypto when you use middlemen such as cryptoscamdotcom and Visa.

You are paying with crypto when you directly send funds from your public address to someone's else public address.

[GrandPapillon]

2 minutes ago, fdsa said:

Despite @GrandPapillon usually speaks utter nonsense and irrelevant bs when it comes to crypto, I have to admit that in this particular point he is right - you are not paying with crypto when you use middlemen such as cryptoscamdotcom and Visa.

You are paying with crypto when you directly send funds from your public address to someone's else public address.

I am always right, you just don't know it yet ????

 

in a few years, you might see the light ????

Edited August 24, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[ThailandRyan]

12 minutes ago, fdsa said:

Despite @GrandPapillon usually speaks utter nonsense and irrelevant bs when it comes to crypto, I have to admit that in this particular point he is right - you are not paying with crypto when you use middlemen such as cryptoscamdotcom and Visa.

You are paying with crypto when you directly send funds from your public address to someone's else public address.

Which is also done for certain purchases, from one wallet to another.  But hey I am still spending the proceeds earned from purchasing cryptos years ago one way or another and what I earned is a hell of a lot more than my Stock portfolio has earned during the same time frame.

[ThailandRyan]

News flash

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2021/08/23/bankers-issue-seismic-warning-bitcoin-ethereum-bnb-cardano-and-xrp-could-replace-the-dollar-in-just-five-years-as-crypto-market-price-adds-1-trillion/?sh=60a4575b79ac

 

Ahead of the latest bitcoin and crypto price surge higher, a poll of mostly banking executives found most think bitcoin and digital assets could replace fiat currencies like the U.S. dollar within the next five to 10 years—a shift described as "seismic."

[GreasyFingers]

I don't know why you are so worked up. You can go to the racetrack and double your money in 60 seconds if you do your homework, with a bit of luck.

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

I am always right, you just don't know it yet

You're the one who talks of crypto never replacing all banking systems.

 

I haven't seen anyone disagree with this point at all and nobody suggested that everything will be replaced by crypto, that's a very rare view held by a few extremists, the likes of which we are never likely to come across on a forum like this. If you want to find such people to debate with I suggest you head over to bitcointalk - that's where they hang out.

 

Who exactly are you debating with here?

 

The people on this forum appear to be casual crypto holders, not 'maximalists'.

Edited August 24, 2021 by ukrules

[Tanomazu]

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

these are PR stuff, same as in 2015, my point exactly. None of these projects or statements went any further than a Press Release. Try to find someone who use cryptos in his daily life to pay for stuff, like coffee, pizza, beers ????

 

that's right, they don't exist ???? and they never did despite claims by the cryptos enthusiasts that we would use those everywhere. They have been claiming this since 2003 ????

No, it's not just "PR stuff", Visa have actually changed their system to allow their users to settle payments with cryptocurrency.

 

And they're just one among many institutions:

 

"Visa’s move comes as major finance firms including BNY Mellon, BlackRock and Mastercard have embraced some digital coins, sparking predictions that cryptocurrencies will become a regular part of investment portfolios."

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/29/visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency.html

 

JP Morgan's move is also more than a PR announcement, they are actively encouraging institutional clients to use bitcoin investments as part of their portfolio.

 

So it's fair to say that crypto has changed the financial system already.

 

I hear what you're saying, it's a small move, and indeed most transactions are still in fiat currency but it's clear where the train is heading.

[Tanomazu]

2 hours ago, fdsa said:

Despite @GrandPapillon usually speaks utter nonsense and irrelevant bs when it comes to crypto, I have to admit that in this particular point he is right - you are not paying with crypto when you use middlemen such as cryptoscamdotcom and Visa.

You are paying with crypto when you directly send funds from your public address to someone's else public address.

That used to be the case, but Visa have now changed their system and no longer convert the crypto into fiat currency. If you have the right card you can use the cryptocard like fiat.

[GrandPapillon]

15 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

No, it's not just "PR stuff", Visa have actually changed their system to allow their users to settle payments with cryptocurrency.

 

And they're just one among many institutions:

 

"Visa’s move comes as major finance firms including BNY Mellon, BlackRock and Mastercard have embraced some digital coins, sparking predictions that cryptocurrencies will become a regular part of investment portfolios."

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/29/visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency.html

 

JP Morgan's move is also more than a PR announcement, they are actively encouraging institutional clients to use bitcoin investments as part of their portfolio.

 

So it's fair to say that crypto has changed the financial system already.

 

I hear what you're saying, it's a small move, and indeed most transactions are still in fiat currency but it's clear where the train is heading.

but it's PR, their system is not in place to "pay" in crypto. Try it and report back. Not one person is paying in crypto with VISA, it's all buzz words. They did the same in 2015 or 2014, go dig their Press Releases back then, same PoC <deleted>.

 

as for investment portfolios, that's not payment, it's for investment purposes, but the SEC has just released a few weeks ago, strong warnings against investment advisors that "promote" cryptos to their clients without following a strict compliance protocol. Yeah, you can trade cryptos with most "brokerage" platforms in DIY mode, but advisors buying them for their clients are exposing themselves to major SEC compliance issue if they do. Do you really need the headache for your clients? of course not,

 

you guys are buying a pipe dream, straight from Madoff himself with his 12% annual gains for life ????

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[userabcd]

4 hours ago, Tanomazu said:

 

 

 

Crypto has already changed the financial system:

 

Visa moves to allow payment settlements using cryptocurrency

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/29/visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency.html

 

JPMorgan Opens Crypto Trading To All Clients

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilymason/2021/07/22/bitcoin-about-face-jpmorgan-opens-crypto-trading-to-all-clients/?sh=7546dbbf44a5

 

Looks like Institutions don't think Crypto is going to fail any time soon.

But some will still say look they are hiding and laudering money.

[GrandPapillon]

38 minutes ago, ukrules said:

You're the one who talks of crypto never replacing all banking systems.

 

I haven't seen anyone disagree with this point at all and nobody suggested that everything will be replaced by crypto, that's a very rare view held by a few extremists, the likes of which we are never likely to come across on a forum like this. If you want to find such people to debate with I suggest you head over to bitcointalk - that's where they hang out.

 

Who exactly are you debating with here?

 

The people on this forum appear to be casual crypto holders, not 'maximalists'.

are you sure? you must have missed a few posts here by members that claim exactly this, that crypto is the future for everything financials, which of course I am disputing ????

[GrandPapillon]

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

News flash

https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2021/08/23/bankers-issue-seismic-warning-bitcoin-ethereum-bnb-cardano-and-xrp-could-replace-the-dollar-in-just-five-years-as-crypto-market-price-adds-1-trillion/?sh=60a4575b79ac

 

Ahead of the latest bitcoin and crypto price surge higher, a poll of mostly banking executives found most think bitcoin and digital assets could replace fiat currencies like the U.S. dollar within the next five to 10 years—a shift described as "seismic."

if you really believe those kind of claims or click bait silly headlines, then you really are a nice mark for fraudsters ????

 

can I sell you a brand new bridge I have? ????

[Tanomazu]

7 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

but it's PR, their system is not in place to "pay" in crypto. Try it and report back. Not one person is paying in crypto with VISA, it's all buzz words. They did the same in 2015 or 2014, go dig their Press Releases back then, same PoC <deleted>.

 

as for investment portfolios, that's not payment, it's for investment purposes, but the SEC has just released a few weeks ago, strong warnings against investment advisors that "promote" cryptos to their clients without following a strict compliance protocol. Yeah, you can trade cryptos with most "brokerage" platforms in DIY mode, but advisors buying them for their clients are exposing themselves to major SEC compliance issue if they do. Do you really need the headache for your clients? of course not,

 

you guys are buying a pipe dream, straight from Madoff himself with his 12% annual gains for life ????

 

They changed their system to allow users to pay in crypto.

 

Previously Visa did convert the crypto into fiat, but the new system no longer does that:

 

"Traditionally, if a customer chooses to use a Crypto.com Visa card to pay for a coffee, the digital currency held in a cryptocurrency wallet needs to be converted into traditional money. The cryptocurrency wallet will deposit traditional fiat currency in a bank account, to be wired to Visa at the end of the day to settle any transactions, adding cost and complexity for businesses.

 

Visa’s latest step, which will use the ethereum blockchain, strips out the need to convert digital coin into traditional money in order for the transaction to be settled."

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/29/visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency.html

 

So yeah, people can now use Visa to pay in crypto.

 

Obviously it's early days, but the system is now in place. Surely it's clear where this is heading?

[GrandPapillon]

6 minutes ago, userabcd said:

But some will still say look they are hiding and laudering money.

probably the only real value of cryptos is to be able to "launder money" and hide it from authorities in "suspicious" RL transactions, that's the true utility of it, and definitely "solving" a problem for criminals of all kinds ????

[ukrules]

I reckon that crypto and non crypto payment systems will both continue to be used and work alongside each other for longer than any of us will be alive.

 

I am not so sure about the gold as a hedge option though - that's going to change much quicker, in just a few short years (<10) I think.

 

I'm not saying that crypto will replace gold here at all, just that crypto will become a lot more commonly used than it is now. Change takes decades.

Edited August 24, 2021 by ukrules

[ThailandRyan]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

probably the only real value of cryptos is to be able to "launder money" and hide it from authorities in "suspicious" RL transactions, that's the true utility of it, and definitely "solving" a problem for criminals of all kinds ????

Guess all of us Crypto Hodlers are criminals then in your mind....

[Tanomazu]

8 minutes ago, userabcd said:

But some will still say look they are hiding and laudering money.

That's what Monero is for, surely.

 

Bitcoin is far too transparent.

[ThailandRyan]

5 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

if you really believe those kind of claims or click bait silly headlines, then you really are a nice mark for fraudsters ????

 

can I sell you a brand new bridge I have? ????

What happens when you are proven wrong and all the banks that are now on board as well as the countries that are creating a digital currency make your views irrelevant.  Will you still be as reticent.