Can a school force a minor to get vaccinate or threaten with expulsion?

[LongTimeLurker]

23 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Yes... I mean that pandemic.... the one which CDC estimated that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died from (H1N1) pdm09 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/2009-h1n1-pandemic.html

 

 

Up to you what you believe... 

 

 

"Globally, more than 15,000 people died as a result of the H1N1 virus compared to the two to four million deaths that had been predicted by WHO, he said."  251 of those were in UK.

 

 

Oh, so it killed less than 'flu, and you think it was severe?

[LongTimeLurker]

On 9/11/2021 at 8:25 AM, ClaySmc said:

This just came out yesterday. It seems to address your issue:

 

New study finds unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to die from Covid, CDC says (msn.com)

 

 

Which is contradicted by this report stating that nearly double the amount of double vaccinated die than unvaccinated.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-many-double-jabbed-people-are-dying-from-covid-151218361.html

 

In the winter of 2018/2019 'flu killed more than 50,000 people in UK in a 4 month period, more than Covid did in the same period, but nobody batted an eyelid then and I bet Covid has not killed that many in any 4 month period since it was invented.

[richard_smith237]

23 hours ago, thailandbeachisland said:

23 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Sad you don't understand this: we're in the middle of a global pandemic that has already killed millions.

 

and what about the 99% who survived ? ridiculous !

 

 

When you state 99% is sounds a lot right. That means (according to you) 1% died, it doesn’t sound much, right ?

 

1% of Thailands population is 693,000.... of course not everyone would catch Covid-19

 

The point I want to make is that when people start quoting percentages, i.e. 99% survivable etc they loose sight of the actual figures... even 0.1% of a lot is still a lot.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

4 hours ago, 2009 said:

The removed detail was an infographic from University College London stating that the risk of a child dying from covid is 2 in a million. Not sure what was wrong with that. Seems on topic.

 

Also, a chart from a Thai scientific study comparing leading causes of death in children. Almost 20 in 100,000 for drowning and traffic accident (each, not together).

Please post a link to the source. Otherwise, who knows where it came from.

 

You're missing the point about kids now being super spreaders, infecting their family AND teachers.

 

And don't forget the impact on a child being in an ICU for weeks and possibly getting long covid.

[Jeffr2]

11 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Which is contradicted by this report stating that nearly double the amount of double vaccinated die than unvaccinated.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/how-many-double-jabbed-people-are-dying-from-covid-151218361.html

 

In the winter of 2018/2019 'flu killed more than 50,000 people in UK in a 4 month period, more than Covid did in the same period, but nobody batted an eyelid then and I bet Covid has not killed that many in any 4 month period since it was invented.

Terrible way to spin this article. Please, read the entire article. Not just the title. Jeez.

 

From that article:

 

However, the higher number of fully vaccinated people dying does not mean that the vaccine is not working, but instead reflects the large majority of people in England who have now been jabbed.

 

Currently, 79.4% of the population aged 16 and over in England are fully vaccinated.

[2009]

59 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Please post a link to the source. Otherwise, who knows where it came from.

 

You're missing the point about kids now being super spreaders, infecting their family AND teachers.

 

And don't forget the impact on a child being in an ICU for weeks and possibly getting long covid.

No, I posted the actual infographic and chart and one of our mods deleted it, so I won't bother.

 

You are missing the point that most children's parents and teachers are at a very low risk for serious covid. For most people it is like a bad flu.

 

If someone is at risk of serious complications THEY should be vaccinated and/or THEY should stay at home. This includes at risk children, like children with asthma, for example.

[LongTimeLurker]

53 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Terrible way to spin this article. Please, read the entire article. Not just the title. Jeez.

 

From that article:

 

However, the higher number of fully vaccinated people dying does not mean that the vaccine is not working, but instead reflects the large majority of people in England who have now been jabbed.

 

Currently, 79.4% of the population aged 16 and over in England are fully vaccinated.

I think it's you that is misreading it.

 

Firstly the headline makes no reference to the fact that nearly double the number of double jabbed are dying from Covid than unvaccinated.

 

Secondly, you must have missed the following paras

 

"In this time period, 37 people under the age of 50 who had been double jabbed and 1,054 over-50s have died after testing positive for the Delta variant – now the dominant strain of the virus in the UK.

This compares to a total of 536 COVID deaths of unvaccinated people from all age grounds during that time."

[cclub75]

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Please post a link to the source. Otherwise, who knows where it came from.

 

You're missing the point about kids now being super spreaders, infecting their family AND teachers.

 

And don't forget the impact on a child being in an ICU for weeks and possibly getting long covid.

 

Since you are so touchy with sources, please provide us with hard data regarding "children being in ICU for weeks and possibily having long Covid"... For Thailand and other countries in the world.

 

Because you write this like if it was obvious and a fact seen everywhere. It's a rather strong and scary comment, so the least you can do is to give us the sources.

 

Basically : how many children have been in ICU since january 2020, because of Covid ? And many have suffered a long Covid ?

 

Thanks to you.

[Jeffr2]

8 hours ago, 2009 said:

No, I posted the actual infographic and chart and one of our mods deleted it, so I won't bother.

 

You are missing the point that most children's parents and teachers are at a very low risk for serious covid. For most people it is like a bad flu.

 

If someone is at risk of serious complications THEY should be vaccinated and/or THEY should stay at home. This includes at risk children, like children with asthma, for example.

Read the forum rules. Jeez.

[Scott]

A number of posts have been removed.  One member has been given a suspension.   Please stay on topic and post in a civil manner.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/children-covid-cases-increase/index.html

 

Covid-19 infections have risen "exponentially" among children in the US since July, according to data published Monday by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).

The group reported 243,373 new cases among kids over the past week. While this is a decline from last week, when 251,781 cases were reported, it's about a 240% increase since early July, when kids accounted for 71,726 cases.

 

"After declining in early summer, child cases have increased exponentially with nearly 500,000 cases in the past two weeks," AAP said in a statement.

[Atlantis]

 

Robblok: what on earth are you talking about?

1. Where are his other posts? Is there a function on here that I haven't found yet - I see he has posted just about this topic.
2. Do you know the difference between anti-vaccine mandate for Covid-19 and outright anti-vaccine for everything?

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, Atlantis said:

 

Robblok: what on earth are you talking about?

1. Where are his other posts? Is there a function on here that I haven't found yet - I see he has posted just about this topic.
2. Do you know the difference between anti-vaccine mandate for Covid-19 and outright anti-vaccine for everything?

I don't see a difference between anti-vaccine everything and anti-vaccine covid. Doesn't make sense.

[Atlantis]

On 9/13/2021 at 2:09 PM, LongTimeLurker said:

I think it's you that is misreading it.

 

Firstly the headline makes no reference to the fact that nearly double the number of double jabbed are dying from Covid than unvaccinated.

 

Secondly, you must have missed the following paras

 

"In this time period, 37 people under the age of 50 who had been double jabbed and 1,054 over-50s have died after testing positive for the Delta variant – now the dominant strain of the virus in the UK.

This compares to a total of 536 COVID deaths of unvaccinated people from all age grounds during that time."

Lurker, you need to take into account the absolute number of people who have been been vaccinated (larger base). So that 536 would look more like 2000 if you adjusted for the relative population sizes (4x)

HST, a mere halving of a low death rate when concentrating on the over-50s is still pretty pathetic. It's a badly written article, and giving just one aggregate 546 figure for under-50s is just negligent or willfully deceptive. By itself, it adds no extra information about whether young healthy adults should be taking getting vaccinated or not.
 

[Atlantis]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:42 PM, cclub75 said:

Sad you don't undertand this : the vaccines your talking about it... were tested for years... before given to children, on a large scale.

 

And those vaccines were "classic" (attenuated virus)... impossible to compare with the new ARN messenger products...

 

But I guess you do know this, don't you ?

cclub75: I feel for you. I really do. You made a genuine attempt to answer a goading question by a poster who (apparently) couldn't even think of one obvious answer to "Why now".
 

"Almost all of us were vaccinated as children. Why such a Fight now? Bizarre. "

Instead of realizing his blatantly embarrassing oversight, he tries to pivot immediately because - you know - only *he* is aware we're in the middle of a pandemic. (Please everyone! quickly forget his silly question you just answered!). There's no point in engaging with such dug-in narrow-minded posters. He has zero interest in actually asking questions and learning. It can't ever be about downside risks you see - unless, of course, its the downsides of not getting the vaccine.

There's too many of these sycophantic sheep online who are incapable of synthesizing any data or analysis, no matter how obvious, that undermines their unshakeable worldview. So confident in their pronouncements that they feel entitled to opine on what newly developed drugs should be forced onto your children.
 

[Atlantis]

On 9/11/2021 at 12:53 AM, richard_smith237 said:

The virus is going to mutate anyway, all viruses do. There have already been 10’s of thousands of variants of Covid-19, just a few of the classified as being of concern. 

 

Bossche’s idea is flawed and stems from the idea that vaccines are imperfect, they will allow the virus to keep being transmitted from person to person and thus mutate inside of us, until a dangerous new variant emerges.

 

This ‘could’ be the case in an immunised person with low levels of antibodies as viruses evolve, but the vaccines will keep up with antigenic drift, just as they do with influenza. 

 

 

Of course, non-vaccinated people do not have anti-bodies, there is greater possibility for the virus to ‘drift’ in their system, as they already have done. The existing ‘variants of concern’ already evolved before vaccines. 

 

 

Agreed, read below... 

 

My mate suffered a heart attack a week after taking the vaccine - I reported it on VAERS. 

He was morbidly obese, had already had 2 heart attacks, but that doesn’t matter, I still reported it on VAERS, its important to contribute to knowledge !!!! 

 

Now do you see whats wrong the the VAERS reporting system ?

 

 

Because it's not - VITT is incredible rare. 

 

Old argument... boring, update the rhetoric - this is already debunked. 

 

 

You didn’t look very hard. 

 

Because you can spread the virus and the vaccine is imperfect.

Even the best vaccine has an efficacy of 95%, thus, if you are contagious and pass on the SARS-CoV-2 virus to 100 people, 5 will contract Covid-19. Real world efficiency of vaccines is less than the efficacy values. 

 

For many, they do not know how effective social isolation measures and lock down has been. 

Those very same detractors may not be here if it weren’t for those measures.

 

 

Covid is not a ‘cold'. After the past 18 months, no one is this dumb...  (I think). 

 

 

No need for anyone except those in high risk groups to be afraid, but there have also been lots of serious cases of perfectly healthy and young people who’ve become very ill.

 

You use the figure 99.98% survival rate... Take 1000 people will die... OR, vaccinate them and 1000 will survive. 

 

 

Richard, thank you for your detailed and patient response. If more people responded like this, I'm sure that many on-the-fence skeptics would go ahead and take one of the vaccines.

Just a couple of points. I see these often and it seems people don't quite get the point of the other side.

1. It is often the lazy, sensationalist media trying to stir up angst among viewers who love to report certain groups as thinking Covid-19 isless serious than the cold (or more commonly the flu). No, a much more accurate sentiment would be the correct belief that, on a statistical basis, certain demographic groups do in fact experience very mild symptoms or are virtually asymptomatic. This is too often deliberately misconstrued as "Covid = Cold", probably as a strawman tactic.

2. I don't think the numbers you cite yourself form a persuasive argument for forcing every single school kid to get vaxxed. Even with the recent acceleration in the spread of the Delta variant, school-age children - especially younger ones are extremely unlikely to suffer from serious consequences. The arguments for forcibly vaccinating them all revolves around an incoherent mish-mash of protecting adults and "just in case" for youngsters. Except you're chasing for minute upside gains with virtually unknown downside risks - even in the short-run.

Vaccine supplies are limited - prioritize offline classroom teachers and those living in close-quarters with school-age children, even giving them boosters when there's enough.


 

[richard_smith237]

On 9/13/2021 at 4:42 PM, cclub75 said:

Basically : how many children have been in ICU since january 2020, because of Covid ? And many have suffered a long Covid ?

Just to take on this point on a ‘food for thought basis’....

 

One of the concerns some are expression with regards to children taking the vaccine is the potential unknown long term risk (if there are any at all) from taking the vaccine. 

 

Are there not also potential long term risks and impacts to children exposed to the SARS-CoV-2 virus ? (as mentioned long covid). 

 

This webMD source addresses the ‘long covid’ problems encountered by children, to clarify it is reported that 1 in 25 children who tested positive for Covid-19 had symptoms for longer than 12 weeks. 

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/long-covid-19-children#1

 

and the Lancet article the above WebMD discussion links to https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00198-X/fulltext

 

I don’t yet see much discussion for longer term covid-19 in children, however, I would carry greater concern for my child catching covid-19 and the potential for long term impact than any negative impact from the vaccines whether they are Inactivated or weakened virus vaccines, Protein-based vaccines, viral vector vaccines or RNA and DNA vaccines.

[Lancelot01]

On 9/10/2021 at 7:50 AM, Jeffr2 said:

Immunizations have been a requirement for school entry for eons. Not sure why some are getting all wound up about this. Especially considering our current global pandemic. Jeez.

 

https://ourworldindata.org/childhood-vaccination-policies

Few seem to question childhood inoculations  MMR, mumps, whooping cough etc., imposed on children so I wonder why it is now an issue.

The covid vaccine is not something that has been concocted by the pharma companies to suit the current situation, it's an adaptation of the well tried and tested flu vaccine that most adults have been immunised with for decades.

[thcosh]

I can see only one way of thinking here... exactly the same BS as on most maintream media. You should hide yourself in a hole.

 

[richard_smith237]

25 minutes ago, thcosh said:

I can see only one way of thinking here... exactly the same BS as on most maintream media. You should hide yourself in a hole.

 

More than with any other issue I’ve seen those of a covid denying and anti-Covid-vaxx mindset throw out the term ‘main-stream-media’ as if the other party is dumb for believing information repeated by the media outlets and sourced from sites such as the Lancet, CDC, WHO.

 

Many on this forum are also reading the Lancet, CDC and WHO sites along with other sources widely accepted amongst the medical community. 

 

These are not ‘fox news’ or ‘CNBC’ media sites - these are well researched and unbiased sources - It seems that ‘some’ people insist on throwing out the accusation of ‘main-stream-media’ as if it strengthens their anti-establishment stance, it doesn’t, it just makes them crack-pots. 

 

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

On 9/14/2021 at 3:13 PM, Atlantis said:

cclub75: I feel for you. I really do. You made a genuine attempt to answer a goading question by a poster who (apparently) couldn't even think of one obvious answer to "Why now".
 

"Almost all of us were vaccinated as children. Why such a Fight now? Bizarre. "

Instead of realizing his blatantly embarrassing oversight, he tries to pivot immediately because - you know - only *he* is aware we're in the middle of a pandemic. (Please everyone! quickly forget his silly question you just answered!). There's no point in engaging with such dug-in narrow-minded posters. He has zero interest in actually asking questions and learning. It can't ever be about downside risks you see - unless, of course, its the downsides of not getting the vaccine.

There's too many of these sycophantic sheep online who are incapable of synthesizing any data or analysis, no matter how obvious, that undermines their unshakeable worldview. So confident in their pronouncements that they feel entitled to opine on what newly developed drugs should be forced onto your children.
 

Sycophantic sheep? True. Most of them fall for the fake news in social media or the dodgy conspiracy theory websites.

[Jeffr2]

45 minutes ago, thcosh said:

I can see only one way of thinking here... exactly the same BS as on most maintream media. You should hide yourself in a hole.

 

You need to be the first in that hole. Jeez.

[EVENKEEL]

On 9/12/2021 at 11:09 PM, Jeffr2 said:

Please post a link to the source. Otherwise, who knows where it came from.

 

You're missing the point about kids now being super spreaders, infecting their family AND teachers.

 

And don't forget the impact on a child being in an ICU for weeks and possibly getting long covid.

Teachers all vaccinated, mom and pop vaccinated, no others in the house. And you think my 9 yr old should get an experimental vaccine, it would be insane to blindly allow that.

 

This is dangerous insight on how easily the populace can be manipulated. Well, if Phizer says this vaccine which has never been administered on kids before is good to go. Well, it must be true. They know everything.

[thepdru]

On 9/14/2021 at 8:31 PM, Jeffr2 said:

I don't see a difference between anti-vaccine everything and anti-vaccine covid. Doesn't make sense.

 

it shows how much you do not understand many things.

I am not anti vaccines, I just do not want to inject <deleted> krap in my body, but take it easy with yours if you like it as billions obedient sheeps.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, thepdru said:

 

it shows how much you do not understand many things.

I am not anti vaccines, I just do not want to inject <deleted> krap in my body, but take it easy with yours if you like it as billions obedient sheeps.

 

 

Krap? It's an FDA approval vaccine. You fallen for the fake news big time.  Sad!

[thepdru]

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Krap? It's an FDA approval vaccine. You fallen for the fake news big time.  Sad!

 

ah yes ! the famous incorruptible FDA ! everybody knows it don't worry ! it's famous around the world !

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, thepdru said:

 

ah yes ! the famous incorruptible FDA ! everybody knows it don't worry ! it's famous around the world !

 

 

The eloquence, intelligence and degree of factual information backed up with reliable, peer reviewed sources in your reply is clearly going to give people cause to question the vaccines, you’ve presented your argument so well.... ???? _{(yes, that was sarcasm, I figured that may need explaining, seems a lot needs explaining !)}

 

As with all anti-covid-19-vaxx arguments - you have not presented anything remotely challenging to to counter.... just childish drivel. 

 

 

[Scott]

4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Teachers all vaccinated, mom and pop vaccinated, no others in the house. And you think my 9 yr old should get an experimental vaccine, it would be insane to blindly allow that.

 

This is dangerous insight on how easily the populace can be manipulated. Well, if Phizer says this vaccine which has never been administered on kids before is good to go. Well, it must be true. They know everything.

The vaccine is not experimental.  It is fully authorized, but not yet approved for children.  There are some major clinical trials going on at the present.  (I actually know a parent who has 3 children in the trials --a toddler, and two preteens).  

The results of clinical trials is expected to be released as early as October.  

I do understand your concerns.  I am pretty much pro-vaccine, but I do get nervous when it comes to vaccinating my young grandchildren -- thankfully, it will be their parents making that decision.

 

[robblok]

9 hours ago, Scott said:

The vaccine is not experimental.  It is fully authorized, but not yet approved for children.  There are some major clinical trials going on at the present.  (I actually know a parent who has 3 children in the trials --a toddler, and two preteens).  

The results of clinical trials is expected to be released as early as October.  

I do understand your concerns.  I am pretty much pro-vaccine, but I do get nervous when it comes to vaccinating my young grandchildren -- thankfully, it will be their parents making that decision.

 

Depending on the results of that clinical trial people should base their decisions. But i get it its always harder when your talking about kids. Would be nice if we knew how high a risk kids had to contract and have long lasting problems from covid or die. Then compare that with the test results and then people can make an informed decision. 

 

These kinds of things should be explained clearly and data should be verified and so on. Im pro vaccine i feel for adults it has been proven to work and is safe. For kids not so sure but havent read enough about that as I have no kids. 

 

[Boomer6969]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:58 AM, Justanotherone said:

99,97 survival rate for a child

Utterly irrelevant,  children are potent vectors, they might infect and kill anyone that get close to them. This is a war, we can't chose to be part of it or not. In 1917 deserters got shot.