Electric vehicles of all kinds

[Medicine Man]

49 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

starts at < ฿550k in China

Just found it, apparently the Good Cat has an EV subsidy in China. It's about time the Thai government pulled it's finger out and enabled the promised EV subsidies over here...

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, Medicine Man said:

Just found it, apparently the Good Cat has an EV subsidy in China. It's about time the Thai government pulled it's finger out and enabled the promised EV subsidies over here...

Not sure if that price included a subsidy or not ... 

https://chinamobil.ru/eng/great-wall/ora/good-cat/?view=props

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Medicine Man said:

Just found it, apparently the Good Cat has an EV subsidy in China. It's about time the Thai government pulled it's finger out and enabled the promised EV subsidies over here...

Yes, it's important that the rich but subsidized by the poor. It's not fair to ask the rich to pay their own way. 

[guzzi850m2]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

starts at < ฿550k in China

Yes that what I am not getting.

 

Quote: Thailand's EV import tax rates vary. EVs imported from China enjoy a 0% tax rate under a bilateral agreement between Thailand and China.

 

Someone is earning a lot on it for sure.

 

That car is not worth 1 mill in my opinion.

[kwilco]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

starts at < ฿550k in China

Whereas the import duties taxes and fees on an ICE into Thailand amount to 300%.

As far as I can make out, the amount on an electric import comes to 80%.

[KhunLA]

32 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Whereas the import duties taxes and fees on an ICE into Thailand amount to 300%.

As far as I can make out, the amount on an electric import comes to 80%.

Not sure about some countries, but a couple FTA put import duty much lower.  China, already mentioned - 0%.  Japan - 20 %, so someone is taking the p i s s with the pricing.  Guess they think Thais are rich.

 

Nissan Leaf came in originally, and aren't selling well.  This news-blip is interesting, Leaf starting at 1.99m, then 1.49m,  Wonder what Metropolitan Electricity Authority paid for the 24, they bought.

https://www.nationthailand.com/tech/30399581

 

Can't quote BkkPost, AN rules, but this blip shows some of the duty rates, and 80% is there.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2223187/state-mulls-cut-in-import-tax-on-evs

Edited January 8, 2022 by KhunLA

[Medicine Man]

7 hours ago, guzzi850m2 said:

That car is not worth 1 mill in my opinion.

Compared to the Nissan Leaf at 2 million it is a veritable bargain. The Nissan has passive battery cooling and is unsuitable for a hot climate. Most current EVs have superior battery thermal management including the Good cat ..

[Meat Pie 47]

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

Where's that from, one of those scam FB 'sponsored' adverts

Real deal: https://www.medicaleshop.com/ewheels-ew-46-four-wheel-scooter

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Not sure about some countries, but a couple FTA put import duty much lower.  China, already mentioned - 0%.  Japan - 20 %, so someone is taking the p i s s with the pricing.  Guess they think Thais are rich.

 

Nissan Leaf came in originally, and aren't selling well.  This news-blip is interesting, Leaf starting at 1.99m, then 1.49m,  Wonder what Metropolitan Electricity Authority paid for the 24, they bought.

https://www.nationthailand.com/tech/30399581

 

Can't quote BkkPost, AN rules, but this blip shows some of the duty rates, and 80% is there.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2223187/state-mulls-cut-in-import-tax-on-evs

Elsewhere the industry seems to allow Chinese in at 0%, Japan up to certain numbers at 20%, they then jump to 80%. Korea is 40% abd EU 80%. 

As you say their are FTAs involved here, and an EU one may come in to play later.

There are also some government subsidies available for buyers.

I think the big issue will be Thailands in motor industry. This is about 10th in the world and has been mega-protected fir decades.

I imagine they will want to be producing whole vehicles shortly. They already have fledgling components.

To this end they will probably encourage existing manufacturers to swith over. This would help Japan by-pass any duties. I would also think that the EU will continue TKDs but with EVs instead. As the home market for ICES will end by mid century, one would expect the alternatives to be up and running by then.

Toyota are the big unknown as they are not so keen on EVs and backing hydrogen power. This is produced from coal in Japan, but one wonders about the rest of the world 

[sezze]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:21 AM, LarrySR said:

 

 

The fossil fuel industry appreciates you parroting their propaganda.

They have perpetrated a multi-decade, multibillion dollar disinformation, propaganda and lobbying campaign to delay climate action by confusing the public and policymakers about the climate crisis and its solutions.

 

Fact is, electric cars are promoted by environmentalists because they emit fewer greenhouse gases and air pollutants and this takes into account their production and electricity generation to keep them running. 

The major benefit of electric cars is the contribution that they can make towards improving air quality in towns and cities. With no tailpipe, pure electric cars produce no carbon dioxide emissions when driving. This reduces air pollution considerably.

Now you know.

 

Fact also is , environmentalists think people live only at few miles ( km ) from their work , do live in a city where everything is close by , and work normal working hours so they can travel by public transport .

The "green people" forget about people working in chem or petrochem companies , making products which do make all the needed components for their "green switch" , for medicines , for their computers and phones and their sheep wool clothes .

I am in front for EV's since the technology is way better then petrol/diesel/... driven cars . Not because it is cleaner , since the electric produced can be from anywhere , and the batteries are creating huge resources . But a electric engine just works much better then a combustion , in all different kinds you want to look at it . 

 

[Bandersnatch]

Subsidies for EVs/Green tech is often criticized yet let's not forget that it is completely dwarfed by:   Fossil fuel industry gets subsidies of $11m a minute, IMF finds

and that these subsidies have been going on for decades.

 

Big business has been profiting by using the air that we breath as a public sewer and rather than spending money trying to fix the problem they spend their money trying persuade us that the problem doesn't exist. Fossil fuel firms among biggest spenders on Google ads that look like search results

 

Those of us trying to do what we can to fix these problem ourselves by our own live choices are criticized and mocked by the idiots who believe the spin of big business.

 

Now wait for the duped fools to chime up  "Gas Cars are cleaner than EVs"

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

8 minutes ago, sezze said:

Fact also is , environmentalists think people live only at few miles ( km ) from their work , do live in a city where everything is close by , and work normal working hours so they can travel by public transport .

The "green people" forget about people working in chem or petrochem companies , making products which do make all the needed components for their "green switch" , for medicines , for their computers and phones and their sheep wool clothes .

I am in front for EV's since the technology is way better then petrol/diesel/... driven cars . Not because it is cleaner , since the electric produced can be from anywhere , and the batteries are creating huge resources . But a electric engine just works much better then a combustion , in all different kinds you want to look at it . 

 

What on earth are you on about? A mix of the obvious and pure nonsense with a touch of generalisation for good measure. You have to laugh at people who think it is relevant to roll out cliches like "green people" where have they been for the last 30 years? Marooned on an oil rig by the sound of it.

[kwilco]

Just now, Bandersnatch said:

Subsidies for EVs/Green tech is often criticized yet let's not forget that it is completely dwarfed by:   Fossil fuel industry gets subsidies of $11m a minute, IMF finds

and that these subsidies have been going on for decades.

 

Big business has been profiting by using the air that we breath as a public sewer and rather than spending money trying to fix the problem they spend their money trying persuade us that the problem doesn't exist. Fossil fuel firms among biggest spenders on Google ads that look like search results

 

Those of us trying to do what we can to fix these problem ourselves by our own live choices are criticized and mocked by the idiots who believe the spin of big business.

 

Now wait for the duped fools to chime up  "Gas Cars are cleaner than EVs"

 

 

 

 

Totally agree, people are completely unaware of the decades of subsidies the motor industry and private vehicles have had.

Like the tobacco industry, there are vested interests who are spending fotunes promulgating pseudoscience denying MmCc and promoting fossil fuels. And it's not hard to spit those gullible enough to swallow their nonsense.

[placeholder]

17 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, it's important that the rich but subsidized by the poor. It's not fair to ask the rich to pay their own way. 

The poor do disproportioniately subsidize ICE vehicles. Unless, of course, you  believe that air pollution has no adverse health consequences. Also, ICEs impose far graver environmental consequences than do EVs.

[sezze]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

What on earth are you on about? A mix of the obvious and pure nonsense with a touch of generalisation for good measure. You have to laugh at people who think it is relevant to roll out cliches like "green people" where have they been for the last 30 years? Marooned on an oil rig by the sound of it.

No i work in a chemical company for a long time . I know that we do many things to try to preserve energy but yes we do create many greenhouse gases . I hear the things of the "environmentalists"  which they only see not further then 3 cm of their nose . Do i care about the environment , sure , but the stuff the "green wing" people are about is taxing everything and then it's all fine . It all is a lot more complicated then most people imagine . Are EV's more environmently friendly , i am not  at all convinced about that . Since i do know all the techniques which are needed to create the batteries , the engines , or even the paints used on the cars . Are EV's better , yes , but that's because of the engines used which are way better then combustion , but in pollution , i don't think they are . And i don't only think they aren't i am pretty sure they aren't . People can believe all they want , like the engine is made out of copper wires and magnets , but i can tell you there is a lot more to them . The batteries are made out of lithium ,cobalt and few other metals , which are just on surface and ready available , no they aren't .

 

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

Subsidies for EVs/Green tech is often criticized yet let's not forget that it is completely dwarfed by:   Fossil fuel industry gets subsidies of $11m a minute, IMF finds

Whatever you do, do not read past the headline. I would like THIS lie to the 97% lie. From your link:

 

 

The 8% that cuts cuts fuel prices are subsidies to the poor, and the 6% in tax breaks are for cost of production. 

 

Hilarious 

[Bandersnatch]

44 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Hilarious 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

4 hours ago, sezze said:

No i work in a chemical company for a long time . I know that we do many things to try to preserve energy but yes we do create many greenhouse gases . I hear the things of the "environmentalists"  which they only see not further then 3 cm of their nose . Do i care about the environment , sure , but the stuff the "green wing" people are about is taxing everything and then it's all fine . It all is a lot more complicated then most people imagine . Are EV's more environmently friendly , i am not  at all convinced about that . Since i do know all the techniques which are needed to create the batteries , the engines , or even the paints used on the cars . Are EV's better , yes , but that's because of the engines used which are way better then combustion , but in pollution , i don't think they are . And i don't only think they aren't i am pretty sure they aren't . People can believe all they want , like the engine is made out of copper wires and magnets , but i can tell you there is a lot more to them . The batteries are made out of lithium ,cobalt and few other metals , which are just on surface and ready available , no they aren't .

 

Thanks for the rant. Now for the results of some actual research:

YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels

With new major spending packages investing billions of dollars in electric vehicles in the U.S., some analysts have raised concerns over how green the electric vehicle industry actually is, focusing particularly on indirect emissions caused within the supply chains of the vehicle components and the fuels used to power electricity that charges the vehicles.

But a recent study from the Yale School of the Environment published in Nature Communications found that the total indirect emissions from electric vehicles pale in comparison to the indirect emissions from fossil fuel-powered vehicles. This is in addition to the direct emissions from combusting fossil fuels — either at the tailpipe for conventional vehicles or at the power plant smokestack for electricity generation — showing electric vehicles have a clear advantage emissions-wise over conventional vehicles.

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Whatever you do, do not read past the headline. I would like THIS lie to the 97% lie. From your link:

 

 

The 8% that cuts cuts fuel prices are subsidies to the poor, and the 6% in tax breaks are for cost of production. 

 

Hilarious 

What's hilarious is that even with your cherry-picked quotation, your evidence doesn't hold up to even the mildest scrutiny.

Air pollution hurts the poorest most

https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/air-pollution-hurts-poorest-most

[Yellowtail]

9 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

 

 

This is even funnier. Yes, given the vast majority of "subsidies" to the fossil fuel industries are the pollutants resulting from burning fossil fuels, of course the rich are going to "benefit" more from the  "subsidies". The intelligentsia love their private jets and most all of us love air conditioning. Why would it surprise anyone that the richest 20% of households in the world use the most energy? 

 

Look at the breakdown of the "subsidies" the left claims are paid to the fossil fuel industry. None of it is actually "paid" to the fossil fuel industry, but rather stuff they make up. 

 

Is the environmental impact (not to mention the deaths) of all the mining associated with battery and panel production? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

What's hilarious is that even with your cherry-picked quotation, your evidence doesn't hold up to even the mildest scrutiny.

Air pollution hurts the poorest most

https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/air-pollution-hurts-poorest-most

As always. long on rhetoric, short on facts. 

[placeholder]

 

30 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

As always. long on rhetoric, short on facts. 

Thanks for not raising any specific points to refute the points raised. 

Here's some more info for you to ignore:

https://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/programs/geh/geh_newsletter/2016/4/spotlight/poor_communities_exposed_to_elevated_air_pollution_levels.cfm

https://www.niehs.nih.gov/research/programs/geh/geh_newsletter/2016/4/spotlight/poor_communities_exposed_to_elevated_air_pollution_levels.cfm

[KhunLA]

Let me know when the thread gets back to EV of all kinds.

 

Isn't there an ICE vs EV thread ? There should be.

[placeholder]

38 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

This is even funnier. Yes, given the vast majority of "subsidies" to the fossil fuel industries are the pollutants resulting from burning fossil fuels, of course the rich are going to "benefit" more from the  "subsidies". The intelligentsia love their private jets and most all of us love air conditioning. Why would it surprise anyone that the richest 20% of households in the world use the most energy? 

 

Look at the breakdown of the "subsidies" the left claims are paid to the fossil fuel industry. None of it is actually "paid" to the fossil fuel industry, but rather stuff they make up. 

 

Is the environmental impact (not to mention the deaths) of all the mining associated with battery and panel production? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

This is even funnier. Yes, given the vast majority of "subsidies" to the fossil fuel industries are the pollutants resulting from burning fossil fuels, of course the rich are going to "benefit" more from the  "subsidies". The intelligentsia love their private jets and most all of us love air conditioning. Why would it surprise anyone that the richest 20% of households in the world use the most energy? 

 

Look at the breakdown of the "subsidies" the left claims are paid to the fossil fuel industry. None of it is actually "paid" to the fossil fuel industry, but rather stuff they make up. 

 

Is the environmental impact (not to mention the deaths) of all the mining associated with battery and panel production? 

And of course the rich can avoid the consequences the environmental hazards posed by pollution, too. Or do you doubt that?

Do you doubt the damage that polluted air and water does to health? And the fact that it's not the polluters who have to pay for care but those who are damaged?

And finally, once again, here is the a link to a study that shows the relative damage from ICE vehicles vs EV's and how much worse ICE vehicles are for the environment

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27247-y

And a link to an article about its findings.

https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

 

[KhunLA]

Oh my, will you look at that:

 

[kwilco]

16 hours ago, sezze said:

No i work in a chemical company for a long time .

That would explain a lot!

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

given the vast majority of "subsidies" to the fossil fuel industries are the pollutants resulting from burning fossil fuels, of course the rich are going to "benefit" more from the  "subsidies

I get the feeling you don't  know what "subsidy" means.

[kwilco]

The OP states there are 4 kinds of electric cars....there's no stopping them now.

Not sure 4 kinds is satisfactory.... but industry certainly seems to have put its weight behind the whole thing.

So who thinks they should, will or can be stopped?

[kwilco]

So it seems the government has àraft of measures.

Reducing duties on ALL EVs and subsidies for buyers to start with.

They ibtend to give I centres for all manufacturers to builders in Thailnd both for home market  and abroad within 3 years.

 

PS - It should be noted that batteries that used to cost 200k are now priced at 70k to 80k