Udon police arrest Swiss expat who killed armed intruder at his home

[matchar]

3 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

So, the police should take his word and let him go?  Or should they do what the police of any country would do and either hold him, and maybe allow him to be released on bail, until the investigation has been carried out?

In my opinion they should interview him under caution and release him without charge until they have any evidence to suggest it wasn't self-defense or he used unreasonable force.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, nchuckle said:

The point is to say ' I’m sure ' when it comes to Thai police and the justice system is inadvisable. If you can’t name a previous instance where a farang has killed a Thai burglar then your point is moot . Can you?- if not then there is no specific precedent and the only guidance is RTP form in general. Are you happy they got the right culprits for the Koh Tao murders and if not what gives you such confidence here? It may be he isn’t eventually charged but in his position would you be feeling relaxed and confident about the outcome even without some ‘financial consideration'? 

The reason for the injustice on Kao Tao was to get two Thais guys off a murder charge , that was an anomaly and isn't usual .

  In this case the RTP have no reason to try and get the wrong person , no incentive . 

  If they have any evidence against the Swiss guy , evidence that he murdered the Thai guy , they will use that evidence to press charges .

   If it turns out the Swiss guy is being honest and telling the truth , they wont charge him 

[paul1804]

All these posts making predictions & assumptions, pretty silly unless you know the facts isn't it???

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, matchar said:

10 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

So, the police should take his word and let him go?  Or should they do what the police of any country would do and either hold him, and maybe allow him to be released on bail, until the investigation has been carried out?

In my opinion they should interview him under caution and release him without charge until they have any evidence to suggest it wasn't self-defense or he used unreasonable force.

That would make perfect sense to a Westerner. But the Thai legal system may operate differently when a death is involved. 

 

It's quite likely he’s already been bailed out by now and the arrest was simply procedural.

 

Similar (arrest) occurs when a death has resulted from a motor accident / incident.

[Concerned observer]

Of course the 63 year old Swiss pensioner is in the wrong - TiT!

 

In the UK they say 'An Englishman's home is his castle'. It is a British proverb. It means a home is the place of refuge and safety for a person. A home is supposed to be a place of shelter that protects a person. It also means that whatever happens at home must be controlled and solved in the same place. People enjoy the position of rulers in their own homes, and others have no right to enter without the householder's permission. It would be the same in the US, Australia, any country in Europe or indeed any other responsible, developed country in the world. But not in Thailand.... here a Thai is allowed to climb over a wall with a firearm demanding money and we are all supposed to just give it to him.

[WebGuy]

7 hours ago, seajae said:

when you are attacked in your own home with a gun weilding robber you are entitled to defend yourself, in any other country it would be recognised as self defence, if a thai had done it, it would also be looked at as self defence but because a farang that was 10 years older than the robber did it he is being charged, really shows the anti farang views/laws they have here. 

Not anti farang laws. For example in Serbia, if you are attacked you can defend yourself but with an equal weapon as the attacker has it. That is, if he comes at you with a knife and you shot him with a gun, you are in a trouble and cannot escape prison. I know this rule is stupid but this is how it works there. I am interesting what the law is in Thailand when it comes to this type of cases because I live with a child and wife and was wandering what would be a proper defense if 2 - 3 rapists / burglars would break into our house.

[aussienam]

7 hours ago, keith101 said:

If he is charged with a crime causing death in defending himself then it will another reason for tourists to stay away and all expats to be wary of defending themselves .

To be fair there are similar cases like this around the world, including Western countries.  Police may opt to charge an accused in absence of evidence of reasonable self-defence, found by further investigations and let the courts work out the truth. 

 

Further evidence of self defence may arise from completed forensic evidence coupled with the accused person's and witnesses versions of events if they corroborate. 

 

It seems based only on this media report (which often can misquote or be absent of the full evidence at hand), that the accused person's account of events fell short of justifiable self-defence.  The police didn't buy his version of events (Was it 'overkill' - pun intended, or was there bad blood between these two?  Something the police know more about?).  

 

Defence argument - Even if the accused continued to assault the now deceased person beyond what was reasonably neccessay - i.e. when there was no longer determined to be an imminent threat, there is the argument of subjectiveness and what the accused person's frame of mind was versus an objective standpoint.  

 

I dare say as a wild guess, the accused had adrenaline surging through his system, his perception of threat was still highly elevated beyond the danger having ceased, he was in shock, extreme anger, blind rage, protective, etc. 

 

These are often good defence arguments leading to an overturning of a conviction, or at least to mitigate intent and help to reduce the period of incarceration/freedom.  Or it could go the other way.  

 

I don't believe this is a targeted xenophobia-based arrest (I hope). 

Just my opinion. 

 

 

[EVENKEEL]

53 minutes ago, Lampang2 said:

63 - 44 = do the math.

 

the wife seems to have lost her lover in the process.

 

 

You're right he (the Swiss) should have traded her in long ago.

[Mac Mickmanus]

11 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

In any country I know of with half decent laws Police would arrest and charge any person who caused  the death of another in any circumstances. If the Swiss man's story is accepted as true he would still be charged with manslaughter. In any eventual Court hearing if it was established it was unintentional and accidental manslaughter in the act of self defense against an armed intruder proper justice would see the charge dismissed without conviction. Unless the thot plickens it would be difficult to learn of a different outcome. I hope the Swiss Embassy is prepared to advocate for him given the apparent circumstances

They may do some tests on the Thai guy and find out that he died of Covid ?

[Dogmatix]

I the video link in the post above, you can see that the cops didn't take any chances with the dangerous 63 year old farang killer. He was arrested and handcuffed immediately, making it difficult for him to perform in the instant re-enactment ordered by police. 

 

I have looked at several articles in Thai and (you can search for them googling the deceased's name เสถียร จันทรขันตรี).  I note that, although they all feature different photographs, indicating the police invited the photographers, the articles are all nearly indentical word for word.  Obviously the police gave them a press release or issued a verbal statement. Police are good at getting their own version of events over to the media with no contradictions, partly taking advantage of the laziness of reporters.  In this case, however, the police version shows the farang is completely blameless, having killed an armed intruder in self defence.  They need to investigate to confirm but arresting and handcuffing him immediately just because he is a farang is disgusting. That would not happen, if it were the pooyai baan or any respected Thai in the village.  Presumably Mr Rudolf is now sitting in the police cells swatting mosquitos  and has been subjected to heavy demands for cash with or without plastic bags. 

 

The AN translation omits this part but all the Thai articles point out that Mr Rudolf lived in the house with two wives.  The one who is interviewed in the video,  Mrs Lakh, is obviously a complete peasant, whom he must have met in a beer bar in Pattaya or somewhere.  She speaks Thai with a heavy Isaan accent.  In the Thai articles she admitted that she knew the deceased, Mr Sathien, and and even invited him round to drink at the house. She admitted that Mr Sathien made advances to her but claimed she didn't provide him with any sexual favours.  She said she enjoyed going out to drink at various peoples' houses in the district.  Most Thai farmers go to bed early and rise before dawn to put in some hours of hard graft before it gets too hot. Middle aged women going out drinking in other village people's houses late at night is synonymous with a local set of ne'er do well gamblers and alcholics and maybe she is a yaba taker, particularly if she has a background in prostitution. No doubt she was up to no good with Mr Sathien and probably provided favours to other gentlemen in the area too. It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility she was involved in a conspiracy with Mr Sathien to murder her husband and inherit what she probably imagined to be fabulous wealth.

 

There may also have been a jealously issue with the other wife. There is nothing in any of the articles about the other women nor any pictures of her.   

 

[eddie61]

7 hours ago, Cake Monster said:

If this Swiss man is charged with any offence at all, the Thais can kiss goodbye to attracting the high rolling Foreign people that they are so desperately seeking.

The potential 1 Million or so Digital Nomads Etc Etc Etc, will just say " <deleted> that, if I cannot defend myself , and what is mine, without prosecution."

We all know that it’s a pipe dream, but why not enjoy the ride

[ballpoint]

1 minute ago, matchar said:

In my opinion they should interview him under caution and release him without charge until they have any evidence to suggest it wasn't self-defense or he used unreasonable force.

Yes, I was playing devils advocate as a counter to all the knee jerk posts on the first page of the thread, especially those trying to make out this would never happen elsewhere.  I actually fully go along with the Swiss guy's story. However, in my own country (NZ) if you kill someone who is on your own property illegally, you will still be investigated, and likely charged, for manslaughter.

 

"This defence recognises that people have a right to defend themselves against violence or threats of violence, so long as the force used is no more than is reasonable for that purpose. The law does not require people to wait until they have been attacked before taking action to protect themselves. But the law also acknowledges the attacker’s right to life and bodily integrity and requires the force used in self-defence to be no more than is necessary to prevent the violence or threatened violence".

NEW ZEALAND LAW COMMISSION - 3. Self-defence (nzlii.org)

 

The UK is similar, as seen in a previous post, as is Australia:

"Australian Ben Batterham is in custody until late May (the story is dated March 2016) on a murder charge after an altercation with a man he discovered in his Newcastle home.

Legal experts say that case will hinge on what happened during the struggle outside the suburban home, but if one thing is certain the legal definition of defending your home against a threat has jarred with what many Australians believe is their natural right to defend themselves and their property".

When victims hit back at intruders - NZ Herald

 

The UK case above, plus a few others are also covered in this story.

 

[richard_smith237]

11 minutes ago, Concerned observer said:

Of course the 63 year old Swiss pensioner is in the wrong - TiT!

 

In the UK they say 'An Englishman's home is his castle'. It is a British proverb. It means a home is the place of refuge and safety for a person. A home is supposed to be a place of shelter that protects a person. It also means that whatever happens at home must be controlled and solved in the same place. People enjoy the position of rulers in their own homes, and others have no right to enter without the householder's permission. It would be the same in the US, Australia, any country in Europe or indeed any other responsible, developed country in the world. But not in Thailand.... here a Thai is allowed to climb over a wall with a firearm demanding money and we are all supposed to just give it to him.

 

English law permits a person to kill another in self-defence only if the person defending themself uses no more than "reasonable force”.

 

That same law exists in or outside of the home. In the UK there is no law which states its ok to kill someone because they are in your home - you still have to show you used reasonable force in defending yourself. 

 

[monty1412]

18 minutes ago, matchar said:

In my opinion they should interview him under caution and release him without charge until they have any evidence to suggest it wasn't self-defense or he used unreasonable force.

and what pray tell is unreasonable force when the assailant is armed with a gun..... 

[2009]

10 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Not anti farang laws. For example in Serbia, if you are attacked you can defend yourself but with an equal weapon as the attacker has it. That is, if he comes at you with a knife and you shot him with a gun, you are in a trouble and cannot escape prison. I know this rule is stupid but this is how it works there. I am interesting what the law is in Thailand when it comes to this type of cases because I live with a child and wife and was wandering what would be a proper defense if 2 - 3 rapists / burglars would break into our house.

Well, if two or three Thais broke into your house, you'd probably still have a bigger weapon than all of them combined.

 

[monty1412]

4 minutes ago, 2009 said:

Well, if two or three Thais broke into your house, you'd probably still have a bigger weapon than all of them combined.

 

 

[Kinok Powell]

This could unfurl into a mystery only Columbo could solve.

it's certainly intrigued me.

[BE88]

How many months or years now the Swiss man stay in prison waiting process ?

[monty1412]

22 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Not anti farang laws. For example in Serbia, if you are attacked you can defend yourself but with an equal weapon as the attacker has it. That is, if he comes at you with a knife and you shot him with a gun, you are in a trouble and cannot escape prison. I know this rule is stupid but this is how it works there. I am interesting what the law is in Thailand when it comes to this type of cases because I live with a child and wife and was wandering what would be a proper defense if 2 - 3 rapists / burglars would break into our house.

555 .. excuse me you  all have knives I only have a gun.. can you wait there and I will just pop into the kitchen and get a knife.. back in a jiffy make yourselves at home please 

[Dont confuse me]

I wouldn't be surprised if it came out that the wife had complained to the Thai guy that she was being mistreated by her husband!

Not withstanding that unless it can be proven that the Swiss guy tortured  and killed the Thai after tying him up then he should walk.

But.....we all know what may happen!

[LukKrueng]

8 hours ago, keith101 said:

If he is charged with a crime causing death in defending himself then it will another reason for tourists to stay away and all expats to be wary of defending themselves .

Yeah, right. Like Thailand is the only country in the world that throughly checks such cases and let the courts decide.....

[2009]

5 minutes ago, monty1412 said:

 

Lemme guess, you've got a python?

[Chelseafan]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Why is that strange... Guys still hit on my Wife she’s 43. 

 

It seems like the Swiss-Thai couple have a healthy relationship, she was enjoying some time with her friends. 

There is nothing strange about that either. 

 

 

Smacked his head in the fight and was knocked unconscious...  the Swiss guy tied him up before he regained consciousness. He never did, died of the head injury ??  pure conjecture of course, but it would appear that this is what happened if the Swiss mans story is correct. 

 

Nothing in the story seems too far fetched or stinks...

 

 

The SAME guy who was hitting on his wife happens to be the SAME guy who held up the Swiss guy at his home

That's what's fishy to me.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, 2009 said:

Lemme guess, you've got a python?

Do stop going on about penis sizes

[Dogmatix]

8 minutes ago, WebGuy said:

Not anti farang laws. For example in Serbia, if you are attacked you can defend yourself but with an equal weapon as the attacker has it. That is, if he comes at you with a knife and you shot him with a gun, you are in a trouble and cannot escape prison. I know this rule is stupid but this is how it works there. I am interesting what the law is in Thailand when it comes to this type of cases because I live with a child and wife and was wandering what would be a proper defense if 2 - 3 rapists / burglars would break into our house.

Thai law is deliberately vague to allow different legal interpretations of the same events for different people and precedent is not important. My understanding of this includes attending a course about firearms laws with a Thai lawyer as part of a shooting course at a Thai military owned range. The lawyer said the courts expect you to use proportionationate force to defend yourself and family and that you should not have intent to kill the intruder.  It seems ridiculous but he said that, if you are armed, you need to check there is a really a credible threat to your life or someone else's and preferably fire a warning shot. Then you should aim below the waist. If you are sure you hit him, wait to see that he is no longer a threat before you fire another shot. I told him this is ridiculous because you need to aim at centre of mass to be sure of stopping the threat and, if you wait and see before firing again, he might shoot you first.  Also I argued that shooting below the waist might hit him in the balls which might be far worse that being wounded in the stomach or chest, if he survived.  His answers were that he agreed with me completely but that is the way Thai courts see it, as evidenced by cases he has looked at and the key thing is being able to prove lack of intent to kill.  I asked him about ammo, since in the US lawyers have made cases that using hollow points in self defence killings showed intent to kill.  He said he had never seen any cases where the court looked at the type of ammo used and recommended loading a self defence piece with hollow points to increase chance of stopping the threat and reduce chance of rounds going through walls and hitting other people.  Another lawyer told me that, if you shoot someone in self defence in Bangkok, the police forensic team will charge you from 80,000 - 100,000 baht per shot fired in order to come up with a report that favours your account of events. So best to get the job done without firing too many rounds. 

 

I can see that, in order to extort more money and appease the family of Mr Sathien, police will try to argue that Mr Rudolf should have been more gentle with Mr Sathien.  They will probably try to argue that he tied him up and beat him to death after disarming him.  If it comes out that Mrs Lakh and Mr Sathien were lovers, they might produce jealousy as a motive for killed Mr Sathien after he was disabled and neatly trussed up. You can be sure that all manner of dirty tricks are used against Rudolf since he is only a farang married to peasants with no connections and therefore no rights.   

[barefootbangkok]

8 hours ago, worgeordie said:

For whom , the Swiss man who defended himself, or the dead 

Thai burglar .......

regards Worgeordie

Awhile ago I was walking down Sukhumvit Soi 6 when I got robbed by a pickpocket.  A Thai lady yelled "khamoy" which means thief.  My friend and I ran after the pickpocket.  He threw my wallet into a small bush at the roadside.  We cornered him in a condo parking lot with security.  When he tried to get away, my friend pushed him and the security rushed up to the thief's defense.  I told my friend to let him go bcuz the security was only interested in defending him.  That's Thai justice!

[billd766]

5 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Defintely. Maybe the intruder was supposed to shoot the husband, bereaved wife runs of into the sunset with Khun Somchai a bag of cash

 

Maybe the moon is made of green cheese and the sun goes around the earth. People used to believe that too.

[digger70]

8 hours ago, worgeordie said:

For whom , the Swiss man who defended himself, or the dead 

Thai burglar .......

regards Worgeordie

Justice for the Thai Robber ,What in Satans name is wrong with those people . 

One can't defend his own House from a Intruder who has  a Gun.

It's a miracle the Swiss didn't get shot . They should give him a Medal . 

 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, xr399 said:

More likely the burglar was drunk and/or stoned!! An easy takedown... 

Very good point. The deceased and the Swiss man's wife were apparently both local drunks.

[IAMHERE]

8 hours ago, webfact said:

woke up his wife

Sound sleeper to sleep thru a gun shot and grappling fight that went on.

Oh, and how'd the Swiss guy know that the Thai scaled the wall ?