Moving into condo near Punnawithi BTS in Bangkok which was built in 2010, worried about proper grounding / damage to expensive electronics

[wml22]

Hi all,

 

I and am about to start living in a condo owned by my fiancee's family, built in 2010 and located near Punnawithi BTS. I have some extremely expensive electronics and computers that will need to be used in the condo. Having moved here from a country that always has properly grounded electricity systems and wall outlets, and not having any expertise in that area, I don't know how to test if the outlets are properly grounded (not just the power outlets, but the wall ethernet jack also concerns me since a LAN cable will be connected to one of my devices). It's my understanding that buying surge protectors (I hear the APC brand is good here, since I can't find any good Belkin surge protectors in stock anywhere I'm going to use APC ones) will be useless if the wall outlets aren't properly grounded anyway. 

 

How can I test the outlets in the condo, is it possible to determine with certainty that the grounding was done correctly, using affordable tools or the services of an affordable and competent electrician that anyone can recommend?

[chickenslegs]

I bought one of these from Lazada

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/habotest-advanced-rcd-electric-socket-tester-automatic-neutral-live-earth-wire-testing-circuit-polarity-detector-wall-plug-breaker-finder-electric-leakage-test-with-voltage-backlight-lcd-display-i2710876531-s9791043737.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.1.6a5a6472HTLLgi&search=1

 

[wml22]

2 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I bought one of these from Lazada

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/habotest-advanced-rcd-electric-socket-tester-automatic-neutral-live-earth-wire-testing-circuit-polarity-detector-wall-plug-breaker-finder-electric-leakage-test-with-voltage-backlight-lcd-display-i2710876531-s9791043737.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.1.6a5a6472HTLLgi&search=1

 

Thanks, that is very helpful. I'll buy it. Since I'm totally ignorant in this area, can you clarify:

 

1) Which indicator lights "should" be on (versus which ones should be off) to indicate that the outlet the device is plugged into is properly grounded?

2) Would this be a safe assumption: if the wall outlets that are all nearby the wall port for ethernet cable (for internet) are properly grounded, then the ethernet cable line is also properly grounded? (Or should I buy something like a wall-prong to ethernet jack adapter for the purpose of being able to plug this device into the ethernet port in the wall, assuming such an adapter exists?)

 

 

[wml22]

PS: The ethernet line surge protection device from APC that I found shows in the manual that it still needs to be grounded in order to work, but how would I do that in a condo unit? https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Name=EALN-7CMKBZ_R2_EN.pdf&p_Doc_Ref=SPD_EALN-7CMKBZ_EN&p_enDocType=User+guide

 

What it says is: 

 

 

For the case of the ethernet line in the condo living room, does this fall under the category of "a two-wire non-grounded system" that therefore will allow me to omit step 8 of connecting the ground wire to ground? Or does this mean that there's no way to actually use this ethernet line surge protector inside a condo unit correctly, since the condo living room doesn't have any access to ground directly?

[chickenslegs]

13 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Thanks, that is very helpful. I'll buy it. Since I'm totally ignorant in this area, can you clarify:

 

1) Which indicator lights "should" be on (versus which ones should be off) to indicate that the outlet the device is plugged into is properly grounded?

2) Would this be a safe assumption: if the wall outlets that are all nearby the wall port for ethernet cable (for internet) are properly grounded, then the ethernet cable line is also properly grounded? (Or should I buy something like a wall-prong to ethernet jack adapter for the purpose of being able to plug this device into the ethernet port in the wall, assuming such an adapter exists?)

 

 

1) Not clear in the picture, but (from left to right) ON-ON-OFF is correct. Every combination is labelled on the device.

 

2) Sorry, no idea - using the device to test for a good earth is the extent of my expertise.

 

There are some very knowledgeable people on this forum. Someone will be along shortly to help, I'm sure.

 

 

[wml22]

Thanks. I found an interesting Amazon review:

 

Quote

The ProtectNet is fitted inline. It comes with a very short (CAT5e?) cable to hook it up to my router, and the other end to my existing network (CAT6 to a gigabit switch with everything wired attached).

I wanted to use the ground wire, but didn't have a place to attach it to (I have electric heating, so no convenient grounded central heating pipes at hand). In the end I cut the crimped connector off the ground, and wired it into the earth of a normal 3 pin UK plug, and plugged that into the surge suppressor. (I'm not sure if you are supposed to do this, I googled - but found nothing, but it seems like common sense. Perhaps an electrician will leave a comment?).

My home has *not* been struck by lighting since installing, so I cannot vouch for its effectiveness, and even if it is struck; I reckon the surge suppressor would beat it to the punch.

Do they mean that they inserted the ground wire into the circular third hole of a wall outet (while nothing is plugged into the other two holes)? Does anyone know if that's an effective way to ground this device that is a surge protector for ethernet cable connections (https://www.apc.com/shop/th/en/products/APC-ProtectNet-standalone-surge-protector-for-10-100-1000-Base-T-Ethernet-lines/P-PNET1GB)?

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, wml22 said:

1) Which indicator lights "should" be on (versus which ones should be off) to indicate that the outlet the device is plugged into is properly grounded?

The lights are shown on the device and which ones are on or off for a fault are also on the device.

 

2 hours ago, wml22 said:

2) Would this be a safe assumption: if the wall outlets that are all nearby the wall port for ethernet cable (for internet) are properly grounded, 

then the ethernet cable line is also properly grounded?

No, and Ethernet cables do not use the standard house ground anyway.

 

2 hours ago, wml22 said:

does this mean that there's no way to actually use this ethernet line surge protector inside a condo unit correctly, since the condo living room doesn't have any access to ground directly?

No. It means that to have full longitudinal protection you need to install a ground to the living room. This isn’t very complex usually as most condos have exposed steel that is often a good ground.

[wml22]

33 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The lights are shown on the device and which ones are on or off for a fault are also on the device.

 

No, and Ethernet cables do not use the standard house ground anyway.

 

No. It means that to have full longitudinal protection you need to install a ground to the living room. This isn’t very complex usually as most condos have exposed steel that is often a good ground.

Thanks for your knowledgeable reply. Our condo unit is on the second floor of the building. Do you have a sense about how rare it would be for a surge to occur through the ethernet cable in a place like Bangkok and for that to travel through the modem and continue into my computer hardware? In other words, if the first thing connected to the ethernet wall jack is the True WiFi modem, if a surge occurs then is there a good chance it would just fry the modem without continuing through the line to fry my computer hardware, or would it probably fry everything that is downstream connected to the same ethernet cable? 

 

I wanted to have a direct LAN cable connecting my computer and the modem because that would produce a faster ethernet connection but maybe I should use only WiFi so that the only things that must be surge protected, in order to protect my hardware, are the wall power outlets.

[sometimewoodworker]

54 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Thanks for your knowledgeable reply. Our condo unit is on the second floor of the building. Do you have a sense about how rare it would be for a surge to occur through the ethernet cable in a place like Bangkok and for that to travel through the modem and continue into my computer hardware? In other words, if the first thing connected to the ethernet wall jack is the True WiFi modem, if a surge occurs then is there a good chance it would just fry the modem without continuing through the line to fry my computer hardware, or would it probably fry everything that is downstream connected to the same ethernet cable? 

 

I wanted to have a direct LAN cable connecting my computer and the modem because that would produce a faster ethernet connection but maybe I should use only WiFi so that the only things that must be surge protected, in order to protect my hardware, are the wall power outlets.

The only surges that are in anyway predictable, and those not much, are lightning strikes. If you get a really close hit it can blow out anything connected or not, one that is near will just blow random devices if it does any damage. Surge protection on the mains may help. 
 

I doubt that there is any significant risk reduction in using WiFi if the unit is also connected to mains power.

 

lightning strikes that cause damage are not common in Bangkok AFIK

[wml22]

48 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The only surges that are in anyway predictable, and those not much, are lightning strikes. If you get a really close hit it can blow out anything connected or not, one that is near will just blow random devices if it does any damage. Surge protection on the mains may help. 
 

I doubt that there is any significant risk reduction in using WiFi if the unit is also connected to mains power.

 

lightning strikes that cause damage are not common in Bangkok AFIK

But there's risk reduction in using WiFi instead of non-surge-protected LAN cable, and using surge protectors on the wall outlets that the computer hardware is plugged into, right? That's what I mean I'd consider doing as an alternative to trying to mess with installing a ground wire into the condo living room in order to be able to use the surge protector that's designed to protect the LAN wall jack.

[Crossy]

Once you get in post photos of the distribution board with the lid off so we can see what you have.

 

Big surge arrestors on the incoming supply backed up with small plug-in units on your technology should snub most of the lightning induced stuff. You're unlikely to get a direct hit on the LV stuff assuming the block has it's own transformer.

 

What form does the incoming internet actually take? You speak of a "modem" is it ADSL or something else? What you actually have would determine what you need for protection.

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

15 hours ago, wml22 said:

But there's risk reduction in using WiFi instead of non-surge-protected LAN cable, and using surge protectors on the wall outlets that the computer hardware is plugged into, right? That's what I mean I'd consider doing as an alternative to trying to mess with installing a ground wire into the condo living room in order to be able to use the surge protector that's designed to protect the LAN wall jack.

Theoretically you are correct. In practice??? thousands (hundreds of thousands/millions) of devices have been damaged due to being plugged in while there was an extremely close lightning strike. Quite a few have been damaged by induced voltage/current when not plugged in.
 

Do you have any information on the number of devices that have had damage solely via an Ethernet connection.

I don’t have data but my general reading is that that number is close to zero. If the devices are connected at the time of a strike the greatest danger is from the mains cable.

 

So I think that firstly your chances of a surge that could effect your equipment are minimal and you will put protection in your CU just in case, then the chance of anything coming in via Ethernet are minuscule.

 

Yes if you have millions of Baht value of critical laboratory equipment you need to protect then Ethernet should be protected, but then using equipment like that outside a proper environment is crazy anyway.

 

you really need a cost analysis of the possibility of damage (extremely small) compared to the the reduction in bandwidth if you use WiFi not Ethernet, I have no idea of your data throughput requirement so can’t make any kind of assessment 
 

The device you want may work I don’t know if it does, it may reduce the chance of damage. BUT from what level to what level. 

[IAMHERE]

I think there is a youtube video of the Habotest that may be worth viewing.

[Darksidedude]

I would be more wary of a new build.

 

The condo i have in Pattaya was built in 1994 is solid as a rock and will stand the test of time, i have seen new builds and they are not the best

[thailand49]

Do all the suggestion mentioned also contact the condo management they should have a maintenance man on hand who might be able to answer some of your questions of course you better bring your wife to translate.

[Tracyb]

Op….  Please pay close attention to Crossy’s reply.  He’s our resident expert on all things electrical.

[Brock]

Damage from lightning strike is difficult to protect against, as the surge can come through the grounding system. The ethernet grounding thing really isnt much use, as the wires are to small to handle much current.  The major problem in Thailand is is power voltage fluctuations, the reducing supply voltage can damage equipment, this can be mitigated by using a decent UPS.

I have a computer or two and a bunch of electronics in my house, and havent had any problems over the last 5 or 6 years. 

[BananaGuy]

Sell the expensive electronics maybe you’ll have enough to move into a 2015 condo without all the worry.

Just a thought.

[SomchaiCNX]

Get a good electrician to check the whole thing. We had a complete overhaul but after the first incident that nothing was really connected (even no grounding that the man installed). Second floor? In the worst case scenario you can (re) install a grounding yourself (good electrician).

[DefaultName]

I use surge protector extension leads in my condo (where I can plug in 5 things) but I don't actually know if they're any use at all as my wall sockets don't have an earth.  Does anyone know about that?  If they do work, maybe the OPO could use those.

 

Not too worried personally as my building has good lightning protection - metal rope round the roof, which goes to the ground in several places.  Multiple local transformers cooking off causing power cuts haven't affected anything either.  Am I safe?

[khunPer]

OP, you shall first of all invest in a proper UPS, or more, to protect your electronics, eventually place a surge protector plug in front of the UPS.

 

I use a Elektra and Toshimo distribution panels from HomePro (probably same OEM-make, as they are identical) as both surge protector and earth-indicator...

 

 

I also have on the above quoted sockets testers from Lazada, which is also fine to check outlets.

 

Most up-to-date Internet connections are optical fiber, only locally it changes to cobber wire. If you have fiber into the condo, it will change from fiber to cobber in the router, which often also has 5G wireless wifi.

????

[Road Warrior]

as a retired uk electrician,from my experience here (thailand )  don't bet your life on it being dome correctly !!

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, khunPer said:

 

Most up-to-date Internet connections are optical fiber, only locally it changes to cobber wire. If you have fiber into the condo, it will change from fiber to cobber in the router, which often also has 5G wireless wifi.

????

Would that only be if you have workmen from down under? 555555

 

 

[wml22]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:07 AM, khunPer said:

OP, you shall first of all invest in a proper UPS, or more, to protect your electronics, eventually place a surge protector plug in front of the UPS.

 

I use a Elektra and Toshimo distribution panels from HomePro (probably same OEM-make, as they are identical) as both surge protector and earth-indicator...

 

 

I also have on the above quoted sockets testers from Lazada, which is also fine to check outlets.

 

Most up-to-date Internet connections are optical fiber, only locally it changes to cobber wire. If you have fiber into the condo, it will change from fiber to cobber in the router, which often also has 5G wireless wifi.

????

Do you know of a good, reliable and adequately skilled electrician in Bangkok if needed to install the UPS, or can I install the UPS myself? I think I should probably use help to do it. Thanks for your input and suggestion.

[wml22]

On 10/5/2021 at 6:09 AM, Crossy said:

Once you get in post photos of the distribution board with the lid off so we can see what you have.

 

Big surge arrestors on the incoming supply backed up with small plug-in units on your technology should snub most of the lightning induced stuff. You're unlikely to get a direct hit on the LV stuff assuming the block has it's own transformer.

 

What form does the incoming internet actually take? You speak of a "modem" is it ADSL or something else? What you actually have would determine what you need for protection.

 

 

Thanks. I could take photos of it this week since I'm almost moved in. But I think in any case I need to hire reliable help, e.g. to install a UPS as has been recommended in this thread. Regarding the internet, I think it's a fiber connection from the wall jack, but the cable that goes from the wall jack to the modem is probably a coaxial line. I get about 300 Mbps download speed if that helps give an idea about what it is.

[wml22]

On 10/5/2021 at 9:21 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

Theoretically you are correct. In practice??? thousands (hundreds of thousands/millions) of devices have been damaged due to being plugged in while there was an extremely close lightning strike. Quite a few have been damaged by induced voltage/current when not plugged in.
 

Do you have any information on the number of devices that have had damage solely via an Ethernet connection.

I don’t have data but my general reading is that that number is close to zero. If the devices are connected at the time of a strike the greatest danger is from the mains cable.

 

So I think that firstly your chances of a surge that could effect your equipment are minimal and you will put protection in your CU just in case, then the chance of anything coming in via Ethernet are minuscule.

 

Yes if you have millions of Baht value of critical laboratory equipment you need to protect then Ethernet should be protected, but then using equipment like that outside a proper environment is crazy anyway.

 

you really need a cost analysis of the possibility of damage (extremely small) compared to the the reduction in bandwidth if you use WiFi not Ethernet, I have no idea of your data throughput requirement so can’t make any kind of assessment 
 

The device you want may work I don’t know if it does, it may reduce the chance of damage. BUT from what level to what level. 

Based on what you're saying, I probably don't need to worry about the ethernet cable as a surge source. It's not millions of baht of scientific equipment. I've also now been able to test the connectivity over wifi and it's actually decent enough that I think using the ethernet cable directly plugged into the computers is unnecessary.

 

My understanding from other replies in this thread is that I should get a UPS installed.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, wml22 said:

My understanding from other replies in this thread is that I should get a UPS installed.

If you are in the MEA not PEA a UPS is not absolutely essential, but is a very good idea. I am just looking into getting a bigger one as the baby one’s battery wasn’t up to the job. 

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, wml22 said:

Do you know of a good, reliable and adequately skilled electrician in Bangkok if needed to install the UPS, or can I install the UPS myself? I think I should probably use help to do it. Thanks for your input and suggestion.

Unfortunately I live on a tropical island, so my skilled electrician would rather take a fishing trip than a trip to Bangkok - and Bangkok is a huge city, so an electrician in one part might not move to another part for a small job like plugging in an UPS - I've installed my 12 pieces of UPS myself. It's very easy, I put the power cable from the UPS into a wall outlet, and put the power lead from the electrical device to be protected into one of the 220V undisturbed power output sockets at back of the UPS...????????

 

Be aware to buy a UPS with the right capacity, i.e. for example 500VA or 1000VA, depending of your item(s) power need; a typical PC requires about 300W-350W and a flat screen about 150-250W depending on size. If using both a powerful PC, screen and printer, you might need two UPS, one for the PC, and another for screen and printer (I use that).

 

I bought my UPS from different sources over the years, but my best buy was online from Lazada, I'll share a link HERE of what I bought - 1000VA equaling 530W - but do browse through both Lazada and Shopee, there might be other excellent offers, or you can find one in a local shop....????

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, wml22 said:

Regarding the internet, I think it's a fiber connection from the wall jack, but the cable that goes from the wall jack to the modem is probably a coaxial line. I get about 300 Mbps download speed if that helps give an idea about what it is.

Hopefully not a co-ax cable, it's outdated and slow "Token Ring" network. It will be a normal LAN RJ45-connection out from the fiber router, and that cable can easily carry 1 Gbps date (Giga bit is not the same Giga Byte, one byte is 8 bit). Often the router will have a build in switch with a number of LAN sockets for output.

 

This is what my 5G router from TOT looks like (it's about o year old, so new models might have 5 wifi-antennas)...

 

 

The white box at bottom is the fiber inlet, with a small (yellow) fiber cable to the 5G router with the antennas. From that are the output LAN connections. I have an additional switch, the black device, as I route wired LANs to six different locations in my house.

 

300 Mbps is RJ45 LAN out...????

[The Hammer2021]

2 hours ago, wml22 said:

Do you know of a good, reliable and adequately skilled electrician in Bangkok if needed to install the UPS, or can I install the UPS myself? I think I should probably use help to do it. Thanks for your input and suggestion.

Ask your condo manager