Pattaya retirees feel “trapped” in Thailand because of insurance

[In Full Agreement]

23 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Doubt it, they want a lot of the low income Westerners gone.

 

What would be considered low income?    

[perconrad]

I had a health insurance until I became 65, but i could see on the premium schedule that I perhaps would not be able to pay the premium when I got old if I also should be able to pay for a reasonable living. I took a health exam and when that did not show any thing I cancelled the insurance and now 10 years later after I have paid the premium into my own bank account it is now +2 mill THB. Together with other savings I am self insured.

 

I take a health exam every year and until now nothing have come up.

[Harveyboy]

23 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Work permit holders are exempted as we have Thai social security. 

just a question i have a medical card thanks to my wife working for the government and normally i don't pay at any government hospital even when admitted after an accident ..i did pay once but my wifes account was credited automatic 

i have a separate COVID insurance just in case so would my government medical card cover me on re entry or would insurance still be required

not that i plan leaving any time soon but  just read this post and thought id ask  Tks

[JensenZ]

23 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

As long as you are on a non-o originally you do not need insurance for extensions of stay. But I'm quite sure that will change in the near future

For many years many people have been sure this will change in the "near future". I suppose "near" is subjective. How near do you think it is and why are you so sure?

[Tom Parkinson]

I can appreciate that the Thai government does not wish to cover expats’ and tourists’ unpaid medical bills. So I don’t have a problem with some coverage requirement. 
 

My personal experience with medical insurance has been that if something is expensive, it turns out not to be fully covered. So I choose to self-insure, and I have the luxury of being able to do so. I have set aside far in excess of the $50k requirement to cover any possible medical needs. 
 

What burns me is that I must purchase insurance I don’t need and don’t want just to be able to return to Thailand after a trip abroad. What I’d love to find is a $50k policy with a $50k deductible. You’d think that wouldn’t be too expensive, even for an old codger like me. 

[The Fugitive]

5 minutes ago, perconrad said:

I had a health insurance until I became 65, but i could see on the premium schedule that I perhaps would not be able to pay the premium when I got old if I also should be able to pay for a reasonable living. I took a health exam and when that did not show any thing I cancelled the insurance and now 10 years later after I have paid the premium into my own bank account it is now +2 mill THB. Together with other savings I am self insured.

 

I take a health exam every year and until now nothing have come up.

That is the true definition of being 'self-insured'. You have had the discipline to save the annual premiums you would have paid during the previous 10 years. Interestingly, your case is the reverse of many in that you had health insurance up to 65. Many of us are in the position of needing to take out health cover for the first time and being over that age. Annual health checks give reassurance!

[JustAnotherHun]

1 minute ago, JensenZ said:

For many years many people have been sure this will change in the "near future". I suppose "near" is subjective. How near do you think it is and why are you so sure?

Sure I don't know when it might change.

How long ago did they change the rules for Non-O/A and made insurance madatory? 1 or 2 years, I think. That came "out od the blue" and it shows the way Thai authorities are walking on.

Health insurance is mainly a problem for those residents on smaller income. They are not the ones Thailand targets for the future. Not enough money to be made out of them.

I hope I'm wrong, but I fear the next step will be to widen the existing O/A rule to O and a bit later for extensions of stay based on O.

[Sheryl]

3 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

....

Health insurance is mainly a problem for those residents on smaller income. They are not the ones Thailand targets for the future. Not enough money to be made out of them.

Actually it is also a huge problem for people over age 65 (and, especially, over 75) and those with pre-existing conditions. Many simply cannot get insurance, at any price.

 

While one might argue that they should have gotten it while still young and healthy, the reality is that many retirees come from countries with a national health system and thus had no need of insurance until moving to Thailand by which time they were already old.

 

An additional problem is that current rules of getting and extending an O-A or O-X visa do not accept cover under Thai SS, which is what people who formerly worked in Thailand (a fair number of retirees) have. Nor does it currently accept cover under foreign government schemes for veterans...only private insurance is allowed.

 

If Thailand wants to court retirees -- even wealthy ones -- these gaps need to be addressed urgently.

 

[JustAnotherHun]

@Sheryl

I don't know how things are in other countries and my personal situation is different because I have a - crazy expansive- private insurance covering each and everything worldwide. They can't throw me out.

For Germans: As long as you keep your residency there are travel health insurances available even if you are older than 76. Costs much money but you can get it up to 6 months. After that you sign for the next 6 months and so on.

Could be a problem if you need to cover a one-year stay on extension, if the rules change.

Edited November 5, 2021 by JustAnotherHun

[HashBrownHarry]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

I lived here 17 years and been to a Thai hospital a few times. Even had a gf with social security. It works.

 

Look i am not saying SS is a great cover but its the cheapest and best backup you can have. Especially for older people with all the time in the world.

 

Hell if i could sign up now I would .. We are talking about around 6000bt a year that is nothing for an insurance that covers a lot of the basic.

 

I got an ACS expat insurance got it long ago, so all this insurance <deleted> does not affect me as I am already covered.

 

I said it many times in topics where old guys or young guys had no cover and could not pay the hospital that this would lead to mandatory insurance. I was laughed at when i called those who did not pay out, and when i took the side of hospitals. I did so as this was what i expected. I guess i was right you guys can thank all the people without insurance skipping on bills for this. Combined with covid as a good excuse. 

 

Let me tell you a story....

 

I had a bad injury to my hand 2 years ago, almost lost my thumb. When the incident happened i went to a government hospital coz it's 10 minutes from my house. They removed the bloody towel my hand was wrapped in, took one look at the wound and said there was nothing they could do. Then they gave me one paracetemol and told me to be on my way.

 

I had to be driven 3 hours to a good private hospital where i went straight into surgery ( 23:00 ) and had 26 stitches put in my hand. Two years later scar has healed well, no loss of movement only some numbness.

 

So, the Thai SS hospitals are better than nothing, i would tend to disagree!

[Longwood50]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

If you mean to say just ad 100bt so the hospitals can be paid for those skipping out on their obligations and then drop the insurance check. I could live with that for sure.

The last "normal year was 2019 when through September the government reported a loss of 448 million baht due to foreigners including tourists not paying hospital bills.  There were upwards of 38 million tourists plus 70,000 foreigners living in Thailand.  If it truly was a problem not paying the bill, a 100 baht fee would cover those losses.  That is not insurance that is strictly to cover those who don't pay their bills either directly or through other insurance they have. 

The 100 baht fee would be far less burdensome than having to obtain and show the documents to some Thai immigration authority upon arrival. 

To me, I have no idea how Thailand has any foreign unpaid bills.  Whenever I go to a hospital the hospital asks me for insurance and typically to pay upfront in the insurance does not cover my treatment.  It is a no pay, no play policy.  Perhaps it is accidents that are life threatening and the hospital feels compelled to give treatment.  

One way or another the government's $50,000 insurance requirement creates far more expense and hassle for everyone than the 100 baht fee and certainly does not guarantee the Thai hospital gets anything.  Just because I have insurance does not mean the insurance company is going to reimburse the Thai hospital.  Can you picture the hassle the hospital would go through trying to get money back from a Russian or Chinese insurance policy. 

[david555]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

they moved them all to Os so still getting backhanders

With closed landborders ?.....And with such expensive insurrances fly out and return as "O"...?  ????

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

i doubt agents\immigration could avoid the insurance if they brought it in. With the 800k process it's easy, in and out. Insurance not easy so i doubt it will be mandatory to have insurance with O

 

I see your point, but with corruption being so rife here, anything is possible. 

 

The agents may even make fake policy documents, with immigration having full knowledge they are fake, just to issue the extension.  Of course, now with more "illegality" attached to the application, the agent and immigration price go up, so a good earner for the corrupt.

 

They already know the 800k doesn't exist.  No bother for them to know the insurance doesn't exist, either.  

 

Maybe a Thai insurance company will offer a junk policy for the purpose of qualifying for the annual extension.  

 

For decades the 65k / 800k has been the Thai government's method of ensuring foreigners living in Thailand can afford to live here, on an annual basis.  This money is nothing compared to the medical bill after a serious illness / injury.  

 

Making medical insurance a requirement of living here is the final piece of the puzzle for them, and in my opinion, it's only a matter of time before it becomes an annual requirement.  

 

They may even have a two tiered system.  Eg.  show medical insurance OR instead of 800k you will need to show 3 million in a Thai bank.  Such a policy would ensure only wealthy over 70's (or whatever the age cut of is) can continue to reside here, whilst clearing out the over 70's that can't afford to self insure.  

 

These policy shifts would impact every foreigner living here, but it's a mere stroke of the pen in Bangkok.  

 

 

[JeezeLooeze]

2 hours ago, Harveyboy said:

just a question i have a medical card thanks to my wife working for the government and normally i don't pay at any government hospital even when admitted after an accident ..i did pay once but my wifes account was credited automatic 

i have a separate COVID insurance just in case so would my government medical card cover me on re entry or would insurance still be required

not that i plan leaving any time soon but  just read this post and thought id ask  Tks

I would like an official answer to this as well. Others on this thread have suggested that if you have Thai SS (or Thai govt issued "medical card") then upload proof of this as "proof of insurance" at the Thailand Pass website. Preferably do this and see if you get the pass before you leave Thailand to verify it works before leaving the country to avoid getting stuck overseas. I guess one could download a copy of one's monthly payments into the Thai SS from their website and use this as proof as they do not issue SS cards anymore. 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

The last "normal year was 2019 when through September the government reported a loss of 448 million baht due to foreigners including tourists not paying hospital bills.  There were upwards of 38 million tourists plus 70,000 foreigners living in Thailand.  If it truly was a problem not paying the bill, a 100 baht fee would cover those losses.  That is not insurance that is strictly to cover those who don't pay their bills either directly or through other insurance they have. 

The 100 baht fee would be far less burdensome than having to obtain and show the documents to some Thai immigration authority upon arrival. 

To me, I have no idea how Thailand has any foreign unpaid bills.  Whenever I go to a hospital the hospital asks me for insurance and typically to pay upfront in the insurance does not cover my treatment.  It is a no pay, no play policy.  Perhaps it is accidents that are life threatening and the hospital feels compelled to give treatment.  

One way or another the government's $50,000 insurance requirement creates far more expense and hassle for everyone than the 100 baht fee and certainly does not guarantee the Thai hospital gets anything.  Just because I have insurance does not mean the insurance company is going to reimburse the Thai hospital.  Can you picture the hassle the hospital would go through trying to get money back from a Russian or Chinese insurance policy. 

Sure i agree with the 100 bt, but it must be said that its not insurance and people still need to pay bills this is only so there wont be insurance checks. 

 

As for it being hard to get money from foreign insurers. I think its not too bad and is happening now already. Anyway people should pay their bills and not chance it without insurance. Unless they have a lot of money and self insure.

 

[scubascuba3]

59 minutes ago, david555 said:

With closed landborders ?.....And with such expensive insurrances fly out and return as "O"...?  ????

no just transferred, you know, agent style

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Health insurance is mainly a problem for those residents on smaller income.

 

And those residents that are over a certain age that insurance companies refuse to cover.

 

What advice would you have for those residents, despite being able to afford the insurance?  

 

Perhaps it will become mandatory for foreigners to revert to their Plan B country once they reach a certain age and can no longer access medical insurance, or, overstay.   

 

2 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I fear the next step will be to widen the existing O/A rule to O and a bit later for extensions of stay based on O.

 

I agree.

 

Only a matter of time.

[scubascuba3]

53 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

I see your point, but with corruption being so rife here, anything is possible. 

 

The agents may even make fake policy documents, with immigration having full knowledge they are fake, just to issue the extension.  Of course, now with more "illegality" attached to the application, the agent and immigration price go up, so a good earner for the corrupt.

 

They already know the 800k doesn't exist.  No bother for them to know the insurance doesn't exist, either.  

 

Maybe a Thai insurance company will offer a junk policy for the purpose of qualifying for the annual extension.  

 

For decades the 65k / 800k has been the Thai government's method of ensuring foreigners living in Thailand can afford to live here, on an annual basis.  This money is nothing compared to the medical bill after a serious illness / injury.  

 

Making medical insurance a requirement of living here is the final piece of the puzzle for them, and in my opinion, it's only a matter of time before it becomes an annual requirement.  

 

They may even have a two tiered system.  Eg.  show medical insurance OR instead of 800k you will need to show 3 million in a Thai bank.  Such a policy would ensure only wealthy over 70's (or whatever the age cut of is) can continue to reside here, whilst clearing out the over 70's that can't afford to self insure.  

 

These policy shifts would impact every foreigner living here, but it's a mere stroke of the pen in Bangkok.  

 

 

another one of your projects fears, don't worry about it until it happens which is unlikely. Faking insurance is a step too far, imagine when it turns out numerous farang have fake insurance issued by agents\immigration, not going to happen. Pick a time scale to see if you are right or not? within how many years will insurance for O be required?

[david555]

9 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

no just transferred, you know, agent style

Pictures or it is not true ....????.....

 

I have sirious doubts this would / could work ....???? somwhere there is a limit of their risk ....unless family of Redbull of course... ????????????????

Edited November 5, 2021 by david555

[scubascuba3]

6 minutes ago, david555 said:

Pictures or it is not true ....????.....

 

I have sirious doubts this would / could work ....???? somwhere there is a limit of their risk ....unless family of Redbull of course... ????????????????

Surprised me too, technically not allowed, unless you use an agent of course

[david555]

2 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Surprised me too, technically not allowed, unless you use an agent of course

I think you over estimate the agents possibillity's....????

 

Can they walk on water too ? ????????

"But each at their dreams  or reality "

  i would end it..

 

 

[JustAnotherHun]

5 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

And those residents that are over a certain age that insurance companies refuse to cover.

 

What advice would you have for those residents, despite being able to afford the insurance? 

I don't know what those with small incomes can do if the O and extension rules are tightened. We can only hope Thailand acts according to humanity for those who spent decades here, supported families and sometimes whole villages. But I'm too long here to believe in.

 

For those with money there'll be always options to stay. Thailand would not want to lose wealthy foreigners. They might invent Elite Visas with coverage or something like that.

I looked at German insurances. One of them offers a six months coverage for 80+ year olds for about 2.500 Euros. 

 

Overstay? No option imho. You must be extremely desperate to take the risk ending up in an IDC as an old man. If all turns out wrong the last way will be back to the country you came from and die in the cold. So sad!

[Leaver]

42 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

another one of your projects fears, don't worry about it until it happens which is unlikely. Faking insurance is a step too far, imagine when it turns out numerous farang have fake insurance issued by agents\immigration, not going to happen. Pick a time scale to see if you are right or not? within how many years will insurance for O be required?

 

Hardly a project fear. 

 

I have given my reasons for why the Thai government may implement a mandatory medical insurance requirement for retirement visas / extensions in the future.  

 

I'm not worried about it.  I have nothing I can't walk away from here and be at the airport within 48 hours to leave, covid aside.  I have a Plan B to Thailand.  

 

If immigration are going to accept fake bank balances, why not fake insurance?  You must remember, the money flows up to the highest levels here, and we are talking about millions of dollars, not baht. 

 

Why wouldn't they implement a policy like this and make millions of dollars more?  Not to mention kick backs from insurance companies, who will no doubt be lobbying for this change.  

 

As far as foreigners being insured, but really not insured, and getting sick or injured, what's the difference between the system now that allows a non existent 800k in a Thai bank, which is money they are supposed to be living on here, and "insurance" that also doesn't exist?  Same Same.  They both don't exist.  The only thing that exists is the extension, and no one is accountable for how the extension was granted with false documents.  

 

Under the current system, they have no bank balance, which they are supposed to have, just add to that no insurance, which they are also supposed to have, but don't.  In any case, the Thai government couldn't care less who stays and who goes.   

 

As for picking a time scale, I will simply say it's not if, it's when.  It could be next month, or in 2023, or beyond, but I stand by my comment that it's only a matter of time.  .  

 

Why are you so confident it will never happen?  

Edited November 5, 2021 by Leaver

[Leaver]

4 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

I don't know what those with small incomes can do if the O and extension rules are tightened.

 

I never said they have small incomes.

 

Say they are wealthy, very wealthy, but due to their age they can not secure a medical insurance policy for the purpose of obtaining an extension.

 

This is why I suggested they may bring in a two tiered system.  Either produce an insurance policy, or, show something like 3 million baht in a Thai bank, rather than 800k.  

 

7 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

We can only hope Thailand acts according to humanity for those who spent decades here, supported families and sometimes whole villages. But I'm too long here to believe in.

 

They couldn't care less about any of this.

 

7 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

For those with money there'll be always options to stay. Thailand would not want to lose wealthy foreigners. They might invent Elite Visas with coverage or something like that.

 

I agree.  

 

I have suggested showing enough money in a Thai bank account to prove you can self insure, but the Elite Card is another option they have, of course, at a higher price.  

 

9 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

I looked at German insurances. One of them offers a six months coverage for 80+ year olds for about 2.500 Euros. 

 

I think 5000 euros a year may knock quiet a few out of Thailand.  

 

10 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Overstay? No option imho. You must be extremely desperate to take the risk ending up in an IDC as an old man. If all turns out wrong the last way will be back to the country you came from and die in the cold. So sad!

 

It's not an option I would ever consider, but unfortunately for many, it may be their only option in the future.

 

Why do you think you have to return to your home country?  

 

I would think at $300USD for a 1 year multiple entry visa, no other hoops, Cambodia may pick up a lot of ex Thailand residents.  

 

Things can change here with a stroke of a pen in Bangkok, and the changes don't always make sense.  Everyone should have a Plan B sorted.  

[JustAnotherHun]

4 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Why do you think you have to return to your home country?  

 

I would think at $300USD for a 1 year multiple entry visa, no other hoops, Cambodia may pick up a lot of ex Thailand residents.  

 

Things can change here with a stroke of a pen in Bangkok, and the changes don't always make sense.  Everyone should have a Plan B sorted.  

Well, I'm not affected by tightened rules that might come. And I do not intend to stay in Thailand until I die. Things have turned to worse here. I'm just waiting until my son finishes high school and can study abroad.

My plan B was originally plan A. I bought a home on La Palma long time ago and planed to live there when getting old. Then I came to Thailand and fell in love with the country. Temporalliy as ist seems now.

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Well, I'm not affected by tightened rules that might come. And I do not intend to stay in Thailand until I die. Things have turned to worse here. I'm just waiting until my son finishes high school and can study abroad.

My plan B was originally plan A. I bought a home on La Palma long time ago and planed to live there when getting old. Then I came to Thailand and fell in love with the country. Temporalliy as ist seems now.

 

Nothing wrong with riding the wave.  Enjoy your time here.  It's a great place, and whilst things are not great here at the moment, it will rebuild after covid.  Although, I can't say the same about the political structure in Thailand, which I think is driving the country towards civil unrest.    

 

For a country that does not offer a realistic pathway to permanent residency and / or citizenship,  it means we are all just long stay tourists here, and I would suggest a Plan B is a must have, because without a "right" to reside here, you never know when things can change, which could mean  one is no longer able to stay here.

[Chris.B]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:55 PM, Chris.B said:

Since when does a Non-O visa need health insurance to enter/re-enter Thailand?

 

So it's not the Visa which needs the US$50K health insurance coverage, it is the Thailand Pass?

 

Here is a screen clip from another post showing what is being asked for.

 

[scubascuba3]

9 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

So it's not the Visa which needs the US$50K health insurance coverage, it is the Thailand Pass?

 

Here is a screen clip from another post showing what is being asked for.

 

Travel insurance should be sufficient

[JustAnotherHun]

32 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Travel insurance should be sufficient

It is. A friend of mine was confirmed yesterday with a travel insurance from ADAC

[redwood1]

58 minutes ago, JustAnotherHun said:

Well, I'm not affected by tightened rules that might come. And I do not intend to stay in Thailand until I die. Things have turned to worse here. I'm just waiting until my son finishes high school and can study abroad.

My plan B was originally plan A. I bought a home on La Palma long time ago and planed to live there when getting old. Then I came to Thailand and fell in love with the country. Temporalliy as ist seems now.

Thailand and Pattaya were as (Kevs Kevins videos use to say)  (living in a Pattaya wonderland)  from when I first came here in 2005 till about the Coup in 2014 I loved every second of being here....But I have been liking it here a little less every year since...

 

Many years now of tightening tightening visas and by the looks of things they just might keep tightening until all the farang are tightened out of Thailand.....Except for maybe those quality millionaire farang...