The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

[Jeffr2]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

In the age of the internet. it's always possible to find a few outliers to confirm whatever you want to believe.

Like the group of Flat Earthers?  Or, the nutters who follow QAnon? LOL

[Ryan754326]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

An absolutely disgusting thing to say.  Hopefully, you're just trolling and don't really think that.  There are easier ways around this.  Sad you don't agree with them.

It was a question, and you didn’t answer it. Not trolling at all. 
 

You’ve suggested before that the unvaccinated should move to the back of the line for healthcare, so why shouldn’t someone who has been vaccinated, but also neglected their own health for decades, fall behind someone like me if there is limited care available?

 

 

[Ryan754326]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

I think you'll agree a good portion of the world isn't educated enough to make intelligent medical decisions like this.  

A good portion of the world isn’t smart enough to make most of the important decisions in life. Does that mean we should let the government make these decisions for us? 
 

Maybe they should decide what we eat, what we drink, how many hours a day we can spend sitting on the couch or at our computer desk, whether or not we’re allowed to make babies.
It would probably improve a lot of people’s situation in life if they did, but it’s not the world I want to live in. 

[Jai Dee]

An off-topic post about obesity has been removed.

[Ryan754326]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

He said this:

An absolutely disgusting thing to say.  Especially since many lung cancer patients don't get cancer from smoking.  I've got a relative like this.  Not sure where she got it, but she's dying.  Never smoked a day in her life.

I’m not talking about your relative. I’m talking about the people who knew the risks of smoking from the very beginning and chose to do it anyway, and then expected to be saved at any cost to the system when they predictably got cancer. 
These people have been taking up space in hospitals forever. I’m sorry if you think it’s disgusting that I don’t have much sympathy for them. 
 

 

[Ryan754326]

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Ridiculous to try and compare old flu seasons with what's going on now.  But typical of a covid denier.  Classic actually.

I’m just stating facts. I’m sorry if they’re inconvenient to you.

 

If you can dig up a quote where I’ve ever denied the existence of covid, or it’s severity to certain groups of people I will delete my account on this forum, and you’ll never have to read one of my posts ever again. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Ryan754326

[Ryan754326]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You assume ‘self inflicted’.

 

Life style diseases occur in a population at a predictable rate, they don’t grow exponentially over very short periods as do COVID infections.

 

 

What difference does it make? People with lifestyle related illnesses have been straining the system forever, and they represent a very large portion of those who are dying from covid as well. 
 

Without those people, the system could cope much easier. That’s all there is to it. 

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Come.  Ya gotta be kidding.

A good answer. Or is it an argument? Even better than "misinformation"...

[Jeffr2]

Just now, Saanim said:

A good answer. Or is it an argument? Even better than "misinformation"...

Hard to argue with statements like you made.  They've been addressed dozens of time by dozens of members here.  And you still don't get it. 

[Ryan754326]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

Because it is irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant at all if your argument for mandatory vaccination is the cost and unnecessary strain that covid puts on hospitals. 

[Saanim]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Hard to argue with statements like you made.  They've been addressed dozens of time by dozens of members here.  And you still don't get it. 

And the arguments dozens of time: "misinformation"...

[Jeffr2]

Just now, Saanim said:

And the arguments dozens of time: "misinformation"...

Which were correct.

[Rimmer]

Posts discussing moderation have been removed

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

Hospitals in my country ( Canada) have been overwhelmed like clockwork, every flu season, for as long as I can remember. 
Old people with chronic health problems, most of those related to obesity, kept them near capacity in the best of times. 

And what does this have to do with drastic increase in ICU utilization due to covid? Does the fact that the flu stresses hospitals excuse people from getting vaccinated for a more dangerous and more prevalent disease?

And does the fact the many countries that can afford to haven't been maintaining their public health resources to a necessary standard provide an excuse to take a bad situation and make it disastrous?

And what about poorer countries where such resources are scarce?

And, for what it's worth, for most of the covid pandemic the flu was close to nonexistent.

[Ryan754326]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And what does this have to do with drastic increase in ICU utilization due to covid? Does the fact that the flu stresses hospitals excuse people from getting vaccinated for a more dangerous and more prevalent disease?

And does the fact the many countries that can afford to haven't been maintaining their public health resources to a necessary standard provide an excuse to take a bad situation and make it disastrous?

And what about poorer countries where such resources are scarce?

And, for what it's worth, for most of the covid pandemic the flu was close to nonexistent.

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if we’re going to force vaccines on those who don’t want them, then we should also be forcing lifestyle changes on the large part of the population who was responsible for straining our healthcare system before covid came along, and still continues to make up the bulk of those who die of covid, along with all of their other co-morbidities. 
 

It’s the same group of people who were already dying of heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes, who are now dying of covid in the greatest numbers, by far. 
 

The idea that vaccines alone can fix this problem, while people just continue on eating themselves to death, is not realistic. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Ryan754326

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if we’re going to force vaccines on those who don’t want them, then we should also be forcing lifestyle changes on the large part of the population who was responsible for straining our healthcare system before covid came along, and still continues to make up the bulk of those who die of covid, along with all of their other co-morbidities. 
 

It’s the same group of people who were already dying of heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes, who are now dying of covid in the greatest numbers, by far. 
 

The idea that vaccines alone can fix this problem, while people just continue on eating themselves to death is not realistic. 

As I've pointed out before, one reason that your comment is invalid  is that the hospital systems were able to cope with the rise in obesity because the rise was gradual. But the rise in covid was anything but gradual. It comes in surges that repeatedly overwhelm hospitals. In other words, it's an emergency. 

Another reason that your comment is invalid is that it takes no account of degree of difficulty. It's a struggle every day for the obese to lose weight. Is it a struggle every day for the unvaccinated to get vaccinated? Is being unvaccinated some kind of addiction? Do they have the right because of their blatantly false beliefs to endanger public health when getting vaccinated would benefit so many?

Edited January 29, 2022 by placeholder

[fjb 24]

7 hours ago, placeholder said:

level of protection afforded by vaccination

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by onthedarkside
misinfo comment removed

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if we’re going to force vaccines on those who don’t want them, then we should also be forcing lifestyle changes on the large part of the population who was responsible for straining our healthcare system before covid came along, and still continues to make up the bulk of those who die of covid, along with all of their other co-morbidities. 
 

It’s the same group of people who were already dying of heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes, who are now dying of covid in the greatest numbers, by far. 
 

The idea that vaccines alone can fix this problem, while people just continue on eating themselves to death, is not realistic. 

Whataboutary

[onthedarkside]

Multiple misinformation posts on the following issue have been removed along with replies:

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/england-covid-deaths-data-misused-in-false-vaccine-efficacy-claim/

 

England COVID deaths data misused in false vaccine efficacy claim

(Australian Associated Press)

 

"WHAT WAS CLAIMED

COVID-19 data from England suggests that vaccinated people have a higher risk of dying with the virus than the unvaccinated.

OUR VERDICT

False. A fair analysis of the data shows unvaccinated people are far more likely to die with COVID-19 across all age groups."

 

"Some social media posts are pointing to COVID-19 data from England as proof that vaccinated people are at a higher risk of death than unvaccinated people.

 

However, the claim relies on a misleading interpretation of the country’s official COVID-19 figures. While it is true that the majority of people dying with COVID-19 in England are vaccinated, this can be put down to high vaccination rates – particularly in the most vulnerable segments of the community.

 

When the figures are weighed for the numbers of people in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts, the data shows the unvaccinated are far more likely to die after testing positive for the coronavirus."

 

(more)

 

And similar here as relates to the same issue raised in Scotland:

 

"Currently, 86.5% of adults in Scotland are fully vaccinated. As these numbers show, vaccinated people far outnumber unvaccinated people. As such, we cannot directly compare the number of deaths in one group to the other, as the Exposé article did. In order to determine whether the vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of death, we need to instead compare the proportion of deaths between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, as explained by biostatistician Lucy D’Agostino McGowan in this tweet. This method accounts for the large disparity in the size of the two groups."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-highly-effective-at-reducing-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-19-the-expose-misleadingly-claims-the-uk-vaccination-campaign-has-failed/

 

 

[cdemundo]

15 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

The answer is not that complicated.  By pushing an individual to eat better and exercising you improve only that one individuals outcome.  In pushing for vaccinations, the health of the individual PLUS those around them is improved.  In other words killing/wounding several birds with one shot.

Additionally, vaccination takes an afternoon.

Interventions to eat better and to exercise take years.

They are complex problems that don't respond finger wagging.

[placeholder]

12 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

Anyone with basic knowledge of the statistics knows that while protection against transmission sharply declines in all forms of covid vaccination, mRNA vaccines still provide a very high level of protection against serious illness and death. In fact, the highest level of all vaccines. Why is it so difficult for anti-vaxxers to understand the effectiveness against transmission is one thing and protection against serious illness and death quite another? Why is it so difficult for ant-vaxxers to understand the difference between antibody protection on the one hand and T-Cell and B-Cell immunity on the other?

[rattlesnake]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:35 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

It would be funny, if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

 

Scientists and researchers, the vast majority honest and ethical, base their conclusions on the results of their research and evidence and facts, as best as they can ascertain them. And when the research results or the virus changes, then they change to reflect that.

 

On the other hand, the COVID deniers and vaccine skeptics often live in evidence and fact-free worlds of ginned up conspiracy theories and unproven flights of fancy dreamed up by folks huddled in their basements reading and then re-sharing Telegram and Parler posts, or grasping at the 1% fringe loonies in the science and medical fields. That's their version of doing their own research.

 

Some strong words there, sir. I will remind you of them in a few weeks when this whole charade has collapsed..

[rattlesnake]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:13 PM, placeholder said:

This, of course, is just another conspiracy theory Apparently, to your way of thinking, most of the virologists and epidemiologists in the world are turning out tons of fake results of research due to their political beliefs or for some other dark motive. Do you have any idea of how crazy your kind of thinking is? 

I will get back to you in due time.

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

Anyone with a pulse probably has concluded by now that mRNA therapies provide protection albeit temporary due to vaccine waning effect as evidenced by the plethora of boosters recommended, up to 4 now with an omicron specific concoction in the works.

 

Why do you feel the need to downplay and the best weapon we have in this war?  One that works and has saved millions of lives.  Bizarre.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Some strong words there, sir. I will remind you of them in a few weeks when this whole charade has collapsed..

Charade?  What are you talking about? 

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

I will get back to you in due time.

Please don't.  Please.

[Jeffr2]

10 hours ago, onthedarkside said:

Multiple misinformation posts on the following issue have been removed along with replies:

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/england-covid-deaths-data-misused-in-false-vaccine-efficacy-claim/

 

England COVID deaths data misused in false vaccine efficacy claim

(Australian Associated Press)

 

"WHAT WAS CLAIMED

COVID-19 data from England suggests that vaccinated people have a higher risk of dying with the virus than the unvaccinated.

OUR VERDICT

False. A fair analysis of the data shows unvaccinated people are far more likely to die with COVID-19 across all age groups."

 

"Some social media posts are pointing to COVID-19 data from England as proof that vaccinated people are at a higher risk of death than unvaccinated people.

 

However, the claim relies on a misleading interpretation of the country’s official COVID-19 figures. While it is true that the majority of people dying with COVID-19 in England are vaccinated, this can be put down to high vaccination rates – particularly in the most vulnerable segments of the community.

 

When the figures are weighed for the numbers of people in the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts, the data shows the unvaccinated are far more likely to die after testing positive for the coronavirus."

 

(more)

 

And similar here as relates to the same issue raised in Scotland:

 

"Currently, 86.5% of adults in Scotland are fully vaccinated. As these numbers show, vaccinated people far outnumber unvaccinated people. As such, we cannot directly compare the number of deaths in one group to the other, as the Exposé article did. In order to determine whether the vaccines are effective at reducing the risk of death, we need to instead compare the proportion of deaths between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups, as explained by biostatistician Lucy D’Agostino McGowan in this tweet. This method accounts for the large disparity in the size of the two groups."

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-highly-effective-at-reducing-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-19-the-expose-misleadingly-claims-the-uk-vaccination-campaign-has-failed/

 

 

Very good articles!  I've seen some members here post this nonsense, but had a hard time sussing out what was really going on.  Just looking at a bunch of data didn't make sense.

 

Sad some do this.  Not sure why they feel the need to do this.  It does nothing but endanger others and help extend this pandemic.  Kinda like the nutters who reference VAERS for proof of thousands of deaths due to the vaccines.  Luckily, that's been debunked thoroughly. LOL

 

Great articles, thanks!

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

Some strong words there, sir. I will remind you of them in a few weeks when this whole charade has collapsed..

Thanks for providing more proof of your conspiratorial mindset. Apparently, all the research that has appeared in the most rigorous and prestigious of scientific journals, the govt statistics on deaths of the vaccinated vs. the unvaccinated were all inventions made up to further a nefarious plan to...well, you can plug in whatever nefarious goals that were the purpose of this sinister venture. I recall not long ago some folks were predicting another nefarious plot would be exposed in the USA. Of course the difference between their claim and yours is that they had to contend with a definite deadline. One member of thaivisa.com actually said they would bet their life on it!

 

You have the advantage of such folks is that there is no external deadline that will prove the truth or falsity of your statements. Unless of course, you would care to share such a date with us. And if, by such a date, no such definitive proof has emerged, will you concede that your belief was a false one? Or is this going to be like the return of Jesus which has been confidently predicted repeatedly for the last 2 Millenia? And the longer he takes to return, the more some people's faith is strengthened?

Edited January 30, 2022 by placeholder

[Saanim]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Also worth to read:

https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

[fjb 24]

8 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Also worth to read

Yeah, I see that.

Table's 15 & 16.

Nothing misleading in the raw data.