Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[Wobblybob]

8 hours ago, Hummin said:

To have an open mind, means also be critical to what our own allies have produced during the last centuries! It is not Putin comes out of the blue with his propaganda, fueling African, middle east countries and maybe especially India and China with common linked history full of feelings against western countries. 

 

Putin could not have done this without support from mentioned regions who all have an historical agenda against us! 

 

Do I need to mention history behind the build up? 

 

Discussing these matters here seems like a wasp nest! Still it doesnt legitimate Putins war crimes and  actions against Ukraine! 

 

Christ sake shallow thinking from so many who should know better, that the world never starts a new day with blanc papers, there is always a reason to continue this war against some cind of enemy which always involves easy access to territory and resources. 

No excuses will ever condone the genocidal illegal war in Ukraine, it's a shame you need reminding, nice try but no cigar! 

[stevenl]

21 hours ago, ballpoint said:

I tend to agree with you, and was going to comment that the glass fronted building that has been hit in two drone attacks is a good target, since there have been no casualties, but the damage is very visible and apparent to anyone looking in that direction, giving pause for thought.  However, I do have some doubts as to the overall effect.  As Hitler found when bombing London, and, indeed, Putin is finding with his attacks on Ukrainian cities, far from terrorising the population, it unites it.  Ukraine, and the West, want to split the Russian people from Putin.  Bringing them together in a "blitz spirit" would do the opposite.  Attacks on the Kremlin, military bases and other government buildings could show the Russians that the fight is against Putin, and not the Russian people, but I do think it would be a big mistake to start hitting civilian residences and infrastructure - either intentionally or not.

I agree with this. Stick to regaining Ukrainian territory.  I will make an exception though for military targets within Russia, especially the ones close to the border.

[Bkk Brian]

Russia Is Attempting Genocide in Ukraine Other states have a legal and moral duty to stop Moscow.

 

The fundamental objective of the Genocide Convention is prevention, as its title, the “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide,” reflects, and as Article I expressly prescribes.

 

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) determined in 2007 that a state’s responsibility to prevent genocide, and the concurrent duty to act, is activated the moment the state becomes aware, or should have become aware, of a serious risk that genocide may occur.

 

This preventive obligation extends beyond a state’s territorial boundaries, applying wherever it might be able to act appropriately.

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/03/russia-ukraine-war-genocide-bucha-izium-icc-war-crimes/

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

I agree with this. Stick to regaining Ukrainian territory.  I will make an exception though for military targets within Russia, especially the ones close to the border.

If Putin responds to these drone attacks on Moscow by pulling air defense systems from Ukraine, these "insignificant " attacks will have served a very useful purpose.

[LosLobo]

This morning's Black Sea Russian oil tanker attack in the Kerch Strait.....

 

 

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

If Putin responds to these drone attacks on Moscow by pulling air defense systems from Ukraine, these "insignificant " attacks will have served a very useful purpose.

It is not whether the attacks are significant or not, the problem is these attacks could and imo will have a uniting effect on Russia. Which is contrary to the objective.

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

It is not whether the attacks are significant or not, the problem is these attacks could and imo will have a uniting effect on Russia. Which is contrary to the objective.

Perhaps.  Or perhaps it will remind people that a war of choice has consequences for the nation that chose to invade another country. 

 

My understanding (sorry, I can't give a specific source) is that Putin is trying to protect the major cities from any hardship caused by the war because he assumes a serious threat to his rule can only come from these cities, not the more sparsely populated parts of Russia.

 

So far it seems (accurate and unbiased reporting from inside Russia is difficult to come by) that Moscow residents are shrugging off the attacks because they have been inconsequential.  However I'm sure that Putin will maintain, and possibly increase, air defenses around Moscow.  That will come at the expense of air defenses protecting forces in or near Ukraine, which Ukraine will hopefully take advantage of.

[rudi49jr]

And once again Russia shows its evil barbaric intentions, intentionally bombing a blood transfusion center. Talk about your terrorist attack.

 

 

[transam]

18 hours ago, stevenl said:

It is not whether the attacks are significant or not, the problem is these attacks could and imo will have a uniting effect on Russia. Which is contrary to the objective.

I would have thought it opened their eyes as to what has been happening outside their daily life.

All Russians know that Ukraine has for over a year been flattened, and they should not be stupid enough to think "It won't happen to me"...????

[sirineou]

On 7/30/2023 at 3:46 PM, LosLobo said:

As above but with more video and translation......

 

Terror as drones strike the heart of Putin's skyscraper district in Moscow | Watch (msn.com)

These look to me like civilian targets

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

These look to me like civilian targets

Actually its offices used by Russian government ministries, hit outside of working hours and no casualties, great strike eh

 

The building that was hit is known as the "IQ quarter", which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drones-target-moscow-high-rise-building-hit-2023-08-01/

[sirineou]

51 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Actually its offices used by Russian government ministries, hit outside of working hours and no casualties, great strike eh

 

The building that was hit is known as the "IQ quarter", which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drones-target-moscow-high-rise-building-hit-2023-08-01/

And the ministry of economics development  the digital ministry and ministry of industry and trade are not civilian organizations ? 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

And the ministry of economics development  the digital ministry and ministry of industry and trade are not civilian organizations ? 

As in my post, Russian government ministries. So what is your point exactly? A play on words if they were civilian? Were there any civilians killed such as in the Russian strike on the blood transfusion center last night that did have deaths?

 

"photographs of the documents allegedly belonging to the Russian Ministry of Digital Development"

 

With all the censored propaganda they spew out, a legitimate target in my opinion

 

Ministry of Digital Development, Communications and Mass Media of the Russian Federation

[Wobblybob]

19 minutes ago, sirineou said:

And the ministry of economics development  the digital ministry and ministry of industry and trade are not civilian organizations ? 

The Ukrainians are already fighting the Russians with one arm tied behind their backs, do you wish them to have both arms tied. Russia has carte blanche to kill and destroy as many Ukraine citizens and buildings as possible, and in comparison to the Russian attacks this is miniscule as to what the Ukrainians are going through. Maybe the Russians might just understand what the Ukrainians are going through and wake up and smell the coffee.

[sirineou]

23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As in my post, Russian government ministries. So what is your point exactly? A play on words if they were civilian? Were there any civilians killed such as in the Russian strike on the blood transfusion center last night that did have deaths?

 

"photographs of the documents allegedly belonging to the Russian Ministry of Digital Development"

 

With all the censored propaganda they spew out, a legitimate target in my opinion

 

Ministry of Digital Development, Communications and Mass Media of the Russian Federation

Were these at weren't these civilian targets?

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Were these at weren't these civilian targets?

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

 

How does that compare to last night's attack by Russia? Or the thousands of other war crimes in Ukraine by the Russians.

 

Pathetic comparison

[Wobblybob]

22 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Were these at weren't these civilian targets?

I don't suppose the Ukrainians will be too bothered after what they have suffered under the illegal invaders.

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

 

How does that compare to last night's attack by Russia? Or the thousands of other war crimes in Ukraine by the Russians.

 

Pathetic comparison

Again the question is,are these civilian targets. A question you desperately are trying not to answer.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Again the question is,are these civilian targets. A question you desperately are trying not to answer.

Try something better with your time and read my post again for your answer. In the meantime your deflection from my questions is not surprising.

[tgw]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

And the ministry of economics development  the digital ministry and ministry of industry and trade are not civilian organizations ? 

civilian organizations serve the population.

in Russia, all the functions you mentioned serve Putin.

there's the difference.

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Try something better with your time and read my post again for your answer. In the meantime your deflection from my questions is not surprising.

With all do respect my friend, I posted asking if these were civilian targets to which you chose to reply, You make a lot of good but arguable claims , but that was not my question nor do I wish to argue any of these arguable points, 

First I said that these look to me like civilian targets to which you replied that they were trade ministries and such. I answered back. Aren't ministries civilian. Perhaps you answer it, but if you did it was buried in a bunch of other diflections , If so please please cut the portion where you did, and paste it in a reply.

 

 

[ThailandRyan]

12 minutes ago, tgw said:

civilian organizations serve the population.

in Russia, all the functions you mentioned serve Putin.

there's the difference.

And still they are a government branch......

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

With all do respect my friend, I posted asking if these were civilian targets to which you chose to reply, You make a lot of good but arguable claims , but that was not my question nor do I wish to argue any of these arguable points, 

First I said that these look to me like civilian targets to which you replied that they were trade ministries and such. I answered back. Aren't ministries civilian. Perhaps you answer it, but if you did it was buried in a bunch of other diflections , If so please please cut the portion where you did, and paste it in a reply.

 

 

Hardly buried and hardly deflections but certainly in context, highlighted for you, content now on the obvious answer that we all know anyway?

 

35 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

 

How does that compare to last night's attack by Russia? Or the thousands of other war crimes in Ukraine by the Russians.

 

Pathetic comparison

 

[tgw]

1 minute ago, ThailandRyan said:

And still they are  government branch......

not very relevant ... see patriarch Kyrill and Dugin

[Wobblybob]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

With all do respect my friend, I posted asking if these were civilian targets to which you chose to reply, You make a lot of good but arguable claims , but that was not my question nor do I wish to argue any of these arguable points, 

First I said that these look to me like civilian targets to which you replied that they were trade ministries and such. I answered back. Aren't ministries civilian. Perhaps you answer it, but if you did it was buried in a bunch of other diflections , If so please please cut the portion where you did, and paste it in a reply.

 

 

Seriously do you get the same consternation when the Russians repeatedly bomb schools, hospitals, maternity wing, grain silo's that should be providing food for the starving in Africa.

Your question really should be asked to the ukrainians whether they minded if one of their drones hit a building, civilian or not, I think their reply would be an emphatic 'I don't care' and could you blame them after all the suffering that the Russians have put them through.

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

I am still not sure what your answer is because you bifurcate and qualified the answered with the " propaganda ministries.   " comment. 

Originally you told me that they were "which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade.  "

and provided a link, now you say that these were not economic development . digital, industry, and trade miniseries but rather "controlled civilian propaganda ministeries.  " what is that suppose to mean. 

Then you made a comment about " Pathetic comparison"???? Where did I compare anything? Please provide quote.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am still not sure what your answer is because you bifurcate and qualified the answered with the " propaganda ministries.   " comment. 

Originally you told me that they were "which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade.  "

and provided a link, now you say that these were not economic development . digital, industry, and trade miniseries but rather "controlled civilian propaganda ministeries.  " what is that suppose to mean. 

Then you made a comment about " Pathetic comparison"???? Where did I compare anything? Please provide quote.

What makes you think I need to provide you with an explanation to the answer I provided and there for everyone to see? 

 

Just because you didn't make a comparison, I did, it was a response to your post whether you like it or not.

 

The notion that Ukraine targeted civilian target without the necessary context which I brought in is pathetic, it brings notions of targeting residential buildings, hospitals, blood transfusion centers, murdering civilians, men women and children. These are all well documented to have happened by the Russians. Ukraine on this occasion has targeted Russian ministry office buildings where no civilians were killed. Those are the facts.

[LosLobo]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

These look to me like civilian targets

FYI :

https://aseannow.com/topic/1251459-assault-on-kiev-russian-helicopters-swoop-above-ukraines-capital/?do=findComment&comment=18243420

[heybruce]

13 hours ago, sirineou said:

Were these at weren't these civilian targets?

They were government targets.

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

They were government targets.

Apparently we have a different definition of what is and is not civilian.

IMO things that are in the military are military assets, and all the rest are civilian.

I appreciate you engaging me in this conversation and keeping it civil. . And apologize for my unwillingness to get into a debate about all the arguable aspects of this issue, 

Knowing what I know about this issue, which IMO is considerable, I have come to a conclusion , and you knowing what you know , which also could be more ,or less, perhaps have come to a different conclusion.

Who is to say who is right?  I like it to be me but I am sure you feel the same