Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[rudi49jr]

Putin's army has a higher death toll in Ukraine than U.S. across 20 years in the Middle East.

 

https://youtu.be/bhrduL7efLw

 

Not that what the USA have done in the Middle East is anything to be proud of, for from it, but this is just to put into perspective how badly this Russian campaign in Ukraine is really going.

[Bkk Brian]

59 minutes ago, Saanim said:

And the OSCE monitors were sent away., the only independent body in the war area

Not sure the Russians wanted them about with their factual reports:

 

"Russia and OSCE have had disagreements in the past over eastern Ukraine. Moscow refused to allow another OSCE mission to keep monitoring the border between the rebel-controlled area in east Ukraine and Russia in September. Pro-Russian separatists blocked its monitors in their hotel in Donetsk for a week in October.

 

Its a blow for the west however:

"Ukrainian diplomats and Western leaders lose an important resource to counter the false narratives that the Kremlin uses to justify Russia’s aggressive campaign against Ukraine and mischaracterize the activities of its forces."

 

But like I said earlier, the International War Crimes Tribunal are in Ukraine now doing their investigations thankfully and gathering the multitude of evidence

[rudi49jr]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Not sure the Russians wanted them about with their factual reports:

 

"Russia and OSCE have had disagreements in the past over eastern Ukraine. Moscow refused to allow another OSCE mission to keep monitoring the border between the rebel-controlled area in east Ukraine and Russia in September. Pro-Russian separatists blocked its monitors in their hotel in Donetsk for a week in October.

 

Its a blow for the west however:

"Ukrainian diplomats and Western leaders lose an important resource to counter the false narratives that the Kremlin uses to justify Russia’s aggressive campaign against Ukraine and mischaracterize the activities of its forces."

 

But like I said earlier, the International War Crimes Tribunal are in Ukraine now doing their investigations thankfully and gathering the multitude of evidence

Shouldn't be too hard to get loads of evidence, when Russian forces flatten whole cities, bombing civilian targets indiscriminitaly, using cluster and thermobaric bombs, and so on and so forth. Not that the Putin stooges all over the world will believe any of it, but anyone with any common sense can see what's going on.

[Bkk Brian]

Mariupol City Council: A part of the residents of the city is being forcibly moved to Russia. They have their Ukrainian passports taken away and are given a piece of paper that has no legal weight and is not recognized in the entire civilized world.

[Bkk Brian]

Latest UK Defence Intelligence update on the situation in Ukraine - 20 March 2022

 

Russian forces are continuing to encircle a number of cities across eastern Ukraine. Over the past week Russian forces have made limited progress in capturing these cities; instead, Russia has increased its indiscriminate shelling of urban areas resulting in widespread destruction and large numbers of civilian casualties. It is likely Russia will continue to use its heavy firepower to support assaults on urban areas as it looks to limit its own already considerable losses, at the cost of further civilian casualties.

[Bkk Brian]

Russians bombard art school in Mariupol, civilians trapped under rubble.

The attack on March 19 hit an art school in Mariupol’s Levoberezhny District, where nearly 400 women, children and elderly were sheltering, Mariupol city council reports. The building is destroyed. The number of casualties is yet unknown.

https://kyivindependent.com/

[Saanim]

50 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Not sure the Russians wanted them about with their factual reports:

 

"Russia and OSCE have had disagreements in the past over eastern Ukraine. Moscow refused to allow another OSCE mission to keep monitoring the border between the rebel-controlled area in east Ukraine and Russia in September. Pro-Russian separatists blocked its monitors in their hotel in Donetsk for a week in October.

 

Its a blow for the west however:

"Ukrainian diplomats and Western leaders lose an important resource to counter the false narratives that the Kremlin uses to justify Russia’s aggressive campaign against Ukraine and mischaracterize the activities of its forces."

 

But like I said earlier, the International War Crimes Tribunal are in Ukraine now doing their investigations thankfully and gathering the multitude of evidence

Quite different account (it was already here once) - other than by your source of US staff of OSCE: 

 

OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) Daily Report 40/2022 issued on 21 February 2022

KYIV 21 February 2022

 

Summary

• In Donetsk region, between the evenings of 18 and 20 February, the SMM recorded 2,158 ceasefire violations, including 1,100 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 591 ceasefire violations in the region.
• In Luhansk region, between the evenings of 18 and 20 February, the Mission recorded 1,073 ceasefire violations, including 926 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 975 ceasefire violations in the region.
• https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512683
•  
• Who might have appreciated such report? And every day one more report...  (Google is your friend)

Edited March 20, 2022 by Saanim

[Saanim]

41 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Mariupol City Council: A part of the residents of the city is being forcibly moved to Russia. They have their Ukrainian passports taken away and are given a piece of paper that has no legal weight and is not recognized in the entire civilized world.

What does it say to us? How to understand it?

Who are the ones who have taken the passport away from them? Most of the Mariupol residents are ethnic Russians, so they do not want to go to Russia?

And Russia will not accept them without a passport? 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

There ya go like with the sovereign country thing that keeps being spouted Putin and some Russians don't see it like that. 

What does international law say?

 

The UN recognizes Ukraine as a sovereign nation and so did Putin when he signed into the  Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
 

Got any more ridiculously baseless objections to fact?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Well you tell me you seem to know what I think already.

I know what you think when you write it down and post it on here.

 

Don’t describe Putin committing a war crime and then object to that being identified as a description of a war crime.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

23 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Quite different account (it was already here once) - other than by your source of US staff of OSCE: 

 

OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) Daily Report 40/2022 issued on 21 February 2022

KYIV 21 February 2022

 

Summary

• In Donetsk region, between the evenings of 18 and 20 February, the SMM recorded 2,158 ceasefire violations, including 1,100 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 591 ceasefire violations in the region.
• In Luhansk region, between the evenings of 18 and 20 February, the Mission recorded 1,073 ceasefire violations, including 926 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 975 ceasefire violations in the region.
• https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512683
•  
• Who might have appreciated such report? And every day one more report...  (Google is your friend)

Please provide a link to this document 

[rudi49jr]

15 minutes ago, Saanim said:

How to understand it?

Please stop trying to deflect with these inane questions. Let me spell it out for you. Russia invaded another country, without any provocation. They are committing war crimes by the dozens. Russia is the agressor, Ukraine is the victim. It's really that simple.

[Saanim]

13 minutes ago, rudi49jr said:

Please stop trying to deflect with these inane questions. Let me spell it out for you. Russia invaded another country, without any provocation. They are committing war crimes by the dozens. Russia is the agressor, Ukraine is the victim. It's really that simple.

What deflection you speak about? I am commenting to "inane" statements not giving any logical sense. 

 

And if you want to speak about war crimes, that would be a long discussion: For instance what an Ukraine's  TV presenter just openly proposes, try to search for "Fahruddin Sharafmal", you will get many links, however, not many will dare to mention it. Try this one:

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/world/tv-presenter-calls-for-killing-children-quotes-nazi-war-criminal/

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

49 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Quite different account (it was already here once) - other than by your source of US staff of OSCE: 

 

OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) Daily Report 40/2022 issued on 21 February 2022

KYIV 21 February 2022

 

Summary

• In Donetsk region, between the evenings of 18 and 20 February, the SMM recorded 2,158 ceasefire violations, including 1,100 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 591 ceasefire violations in the region.
• In Luhansk region, between the evenings of 18 and 20 February, the Mission recorded 1,073 ceasefire violations, including 926 explosions. In the previous reporting period, it recorded 975 ceasefire violations in the region.
• https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/512683
•  
• Who might have appreciated such report? And every day one more report...  (Google is your friend)

Exactly what is different in that account? The reports it carries are exactly what the west will be missing. 

[Bkk Brian]

45 minutes ago, Saanim said:

What does it say to us? How to understand it?

Who are the ones who have taken the passport away from them? Most of the Mariupol residents are ethnic Russians, so they do not want to go to Russia?

And Russia will not accept them without a passport? 

 

Questions questions....................................try to answer some yourself then get back to me.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, Saanim said:

What deflection you speak about? I am commenting to "inane" statements not giving any logical sense. 

 

And if you want to speak about war crimes, that would be a long discussion: For instance what an Ukraine's  TV presenter just openly proposes, try to search for "Fahruddin Sharafmal", you will get many links, however, not many will dare to mention it. Try this one:

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/world/tv-presenter-calls-for-killing-children-quotes-nazi-war-criminal/

 

 

 

 

Emotional ranting, no matter how repugnant the rant, is not a war crime.

 

Nor are the emotional rants of an individual private citizen a statement of Ukrainian government or military policy.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Strange, there must be an alternate version of the BBC world news. I've just got back from a car journey and the BBC world news came on the radio, it was saying that 1000's had been forced. Its also on the BBC website updates.

 

Of course there's no confirmation of this from Russia, its hardly likely to own up to another war crime.

The Mayor of the city said they were forced.

So as usual nobody knows what is happening except continuance of the Russians still bombing and shelling and media saying they have made no progress. 

 

[Bkk Brian]

It is plainly obvious that the OSCE evacuated because of safety reasons. All their reports are here:

 

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports

 

Including the the 3rd March when one of their members was killed:

 

Based on information from the Monitoring Teams as of 17:00 2 March 2022. All times are in Eastern European Time.

Summary

One national Mission member was reported killed by shelling in Kharkiv.

During the evening of 1 March and morning of 2 March, the SMM continued to hear multiple explosions and heavy machine-gun fire in and around Kherson city. It also observed the movement of Russian Federation Armed Forces equipment and troops in the city.

Following the 24 February decision to temporarily evacuate all SMM international mission members, the Kharkiv Monitoring Team continued its evacuation westwards through Ukraine, while the Kherson Monitoring Team remained sheltered in place awaiting a window to evacuate safely.

The Chief Monitor and senior management will remain in Ukraine until the evacuation process is complete.

 

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine/513289

 

 

[Kwasaki]

53 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What does international law say?

 

The UN recognizes Ukraine as a sovereign nation and so did Putin when he signed into the  Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
 

Got any more ridiculously baseless objections to fact?

Yeah the fact that the war is still going on and cities are being pounded to the ground and people are dying regardless of any international law what silly thing to bring up, the only thing law does is rhyme with war. 

[Bkk Brian]

10 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

The Mayor of the city said they were forced.

So as usual nobody knows what is happening except continuance of the Russians still bombing and shelling and media saying they have made no progress. 

 

The Major of the city knows whats happening.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah the fact that the war is still going on and cities are being pounded to the ground and people are dying regardless of any international law what silly thing to bring up, the only thing law does is rhyme with war. 

Your statement was:

 

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

There ya go like with the sovereign country thing that keeps being spouted Putin and some Russians don't see it like that. 

I’ve provided unequivocal evidence that Putin had already accepted Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation.

 

So now you attempt to change your argument.

 

Sorry, your dishonest meandering  line of argument is exposed.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[Bkk Brian]

@TheStudyofWar now assesses that Ukraine has “defeated the initial Russian campaign in this war” and that Russia no longer has the forces to take Kyiv and other major cities to force a change of gov’t. ISW believes war will likely descend into “a bloody stalemate.” -@Reevellp

https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-19

[rudi49jr]

This whole war looks like an enormous miscalculation, a screw-up of monumental proportions. Putin thought - or was promised by his yes-men army leaders and intelligence people - that it would be over in three days, just a walk in the park, the people in Ukraine welcome them with open arms, everything is hunky-dory and everybody lives happily ever after. And also: there would be no - or no strong - reaction from an utterly divided West (USA/EU/Europe/NATO). All is well that ends well, right?

Boy, did they get that wrong, or what? And not just a little bit, but in every conceivable way. Within a week, the West put their differences aside and rallied behind Ukraine. Putin, the oligarchs, and Russia were hit with draconian sanctions, the likes of which we have never seen in modern history, and which will bring the Russian economy to its knees very soon. Ukraine has an inspirational leader, that man deserves ten nobel prizes, and they're fighting back hard, causing thousands of Russian casualties. And they will continue to do so until they breathe their last. On top of that, hundreds of thousands Russians, most of them young and well-educated, are fleeing their country. Many more will follow once the consequences of the sanctions start to really hit home.

So Putin got exactly what he didn't want: a much more unified West, sanctions that will cripple Russia for years to come, and a war he can't win without committing the most atrocious war crimes.

This has become a huge mess, and its anyone's guess how this will play out. But many more lives will probably be lost or ruined before this is over, that much is certain. And it's all on Putin's head, make no mistake about that.

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by rudi49jr

[rudi49jr]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

And if you want to speak about war crimes, that would be a long discussion: For instance what an Ukraine's  TV presenter just openly proposes, try to search for "Fahruddin Sharafmal", you will get many links, however, not many will dare to mention it. Try this one:

https://dailytelegraph.co.nz/world/tv-presenter-calls-for-killing-children-quotes-nazi-war-criminal/

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me". Ever heard of that? There is a huge difference between proposing to do something bad, and actually doing something bad. That looney Ukraine TV presenter can propose to kill children until he is blue in the face, but as long as no one acts on it, it's all words. Reprehensible and vile, and he can rot in hell as far as I'm concerned, I'll give you that, but still just words, and certainly not a war crime, as far as I'm aware of.

Now Putin, on the other hand, has gone from proposing to do something bad to actually doing something very bad, and his army is actually committing war crimes. Can you see the difference?

[onthedarkside]

A series of posts with unsourced images have been removed. News images posted in news threads, such as here, need to include a weblink to the original source, and the original source needs to be a credible, allowed source.

 

[Virt]

Not confirmed yet, but tragic if it is.

 

What kind of human would sit in a tank and fire at a care home? 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60802572

 

A Russian tank fired at a care home in the eastern Ukrainian town of Kreminna, according to the head of the Luhansk military civil administration.

Writing on the Telegram messaging service, Serhiy Hayday said Russian forces "cynically and deliberately" opened fire killing 56 residents.

 

 

[tgw]

13 minutes ago, Virt said:

Not confirmed yet, but tragic if it is.

 

What kind of human would sit in a tank and fire at a care home? 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60802572

 

A Russian tank fired at a care home in the eastern Ukrainian town of Kreminna, according to the head of the Luhansk military civil administration.

Writing on the Telegram messaging service, Serhiy Hayday said Russian forces "cynically and deliberately" opened fire killing 56 residents.

 

so sad ... but perfectly coherent with Putin's "denazification" narrative ... total BS.

[Bkk Brian]

Interesting article published in the Times

 

The Times

Bellingcat founder: Don’t let Putin’s disinformation distract from his war crimes

Plentiful evidence of Russian violations — now available publicly — is only valuable if perpetrators are held to account

For those of us who investigated war crimes and human rights abuses in Syria, the real fear is that despite the widespread documentation of alarmingly similar acts in Ukraine, there will be no accountability for the new crimes being committed. After countless UN reports and investigations, Russia’s complicity in Syria has in effect gone unpunished. This includes the systematic attacks on medical facilities and civilians that we now see repeated in Ukraine, excused once more by the same lies.

 

We need support to pursue accountability not only in this moment, but in the years to come. If Vladimir Putin’s Russia is rehabilitated into the global community when its crimes have gone unanswered — and with such a wealth of evidence around them — this will only embolden the next autocrat who decides to devastate other nations for their own gain.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/12865cb3-5a7f-480c-bbaa-eaa285f97b43

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

40 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

We need support to pursue accountability not only in this moment, but in the years to come.

 

This is a real and ongoing problem. But as long as Russia continues to have a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council, I don't know how anything's going to meaningfully change.

 

There's the separate, independent International Criminal Court... except:

 

"Four signatory states—Israel,^[47] Sudan,^[48] the United States^[49][50] and Russia^[51]—have informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the Statute.^[42][43]"

 

Russia withdraws from International Criminal Court treaty

Published

16 November 2016

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38005282

 

Could the international criminal court bring Putin to justice over Ukraine?

Even if Russian leader were charged, he would have to be arrested in a state that accepts the court’s jurisdiction

 

"Russia withdrew from the ICC in 2016 after the court published a report classifying the Russian annexation of Crimea as an occupation. On the face of it, proving Russia has committed the crime of aggression would appear straightforward. The definition includes invasion of another state, bombardment and blockade of ports. However, if a state is not a party to the ICC, its individuals cannot be prosecuted by the court for this specific offence. The only exception is that the UN security council can refer a non-party to the ICC for the crime of aggression, but Russia, as a permanent member of the council, holds a veto, so this will not happen.

 

But there is no similar bar that would prevent charges of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide being brought against a non-signatory such as Russia."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/02/could-international-criminal-court-bring-putin-to-justice-over-ukraine

 

------------------------------

 

The U.S. also is not a formal member of the ICC member nations. But at least, the Biden Administration rescinded a series of very hostile measures the Trump Administration had taken to threaten, freeze assets and deny visas to ICC staff over their efforts to investigate alleged abuses in Afghanistan.

 

"On April 1, 2021, the Biden administration issued an executive order reversing the Trump administration's sanctions on International Criminal Court (ICC) personnel. The administration rescinded the sanctions placed upon the ICC prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, and the head of the Office of the Prosecutor's Jurisdiction, Complementarity, and Cooperation Division, Phakiso Mochochoko, and removed the officials from the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control List of Specially Designated Nationals and Blocked Persons. The ICC, European Union (EU), and human rights groups welcomed the reversal."

 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-journal-of-international-law/article/biden-administration-rescinds-sanctions-against-international-criminal-court-officials/8421DC4071EA5B4BC668D9D200497B97

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[tgw]

29 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Could the international criminal court bring Putin to justice over Ukraine?

Even if Russian leader were charged, he would have to be arrested in a state that accepts the court’s jurisdiction

 

he could be "seized" in a similar operation to "Neptune Spear" and then brought to a state with ICC jurisdiction.