Don't mention the war?

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just responding to allegations of my "disgracefully attitude " from people who couldn't care less about worse atrocities occurring in other parts the World .

   If we want to stop atrocities, then all atrocities should be stopped, rather than just selecting atrocious happening to people because they are Caucasian 

Then start a new thread rather than hijack this one.

[tgw]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just responding to allegations of my "disgracefully attitude " from people who couldn't care less about worse atrocities occurring in other parts the World .

   If we want to stop atrocities, then all atrocities should be stopped, rather than just selecting atrocious happening to people because they are Caucasian 

not just because they are Caucasian.

 

it's because Ukraine is geographically and culturally close to Europe, politically evolving into "one of us".

 

because Ukraine wants to break free from Russian oppression and control over their lives.

 

because Russia has become an enemy of the "free world" - it meddles in our elections, in the elections in the USA, helped Brexit to happen, foments dissent and revolt in out countries large parts of the extreme right in Europe is bankrolled by Russia), etc.

 

and now Russia makes war close to our borders against who we can almost call "our people".  that's why.

 

as others have pointed out, it's 1939 again.

Putin must be stopped.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

I agree with you but I said the UN, not the US.

I'm simply pointing out the UN is underfunded to be the world's policeman. Given the corruption that exists in a number of its arms, permit me to doubt its effectiveness anyway.

[Lacessit]

6 hours ago, rott said:

I am essentially a glass half-full type, and I worry that he will come out of it smelling of roses.

I don't think that's possible. Putin has succeeded in reverting Russia to a hermit kingdom, just like North Korea. Russia is an international pariah, no foreign company wants to be there anymore.

In North Korea, the population has been cut off from any modern living. I understand only the ruling elite can own mobile phones. You can't miss what you never knew was there.  Facebook, Twitter? What are they?

The danger for Putin is the average Russian knows what they had, before the sanctions kicked in. Add to that a body count he can't hide for ever, and it's a recipe for regime change, just as Afghanistan was the catalyst that led to the dissolution of the USSR.

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

because Ukraine wants to break free from Russian oppression and control over their lives.

 

Wasn't it the other way around? When the ones who wanted to break away from Ukraine oppression have been shelled over 8 years?

Documented by the OSCE monitors over 8 years, even up to this February, when after they were ordered to leave the country?  

[Rimmer]

A couple of baiting posts also a post from an unapproved source has been removed

[tgw]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

Wasn't it the other way around? When the ones who wanted to break away from Ukraine oppression have been shelled over 8 years?

Documented by the OSCE monitors over 8 years, even up to this February, when after they were ordered to leave the country?  

you should study what happened in the years 2000-2014. that's how it came to this situation.

 

here is a graph by Kyiv Institute of Sociology in 2014. The question was "should Ukraine join Russia" ?

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitxer:Ukraine_should_join_Russia_poll_-_8-18_February_2014.svg

 

CNN also published some polls:

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html

 

furthermore:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Quote

Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:

1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.^[24]

how do you reconcile "respect of Ukrainian sovereignty and existing borders" with Russia's constant meddling in Ukrainian politics using fraud, assassination, poisonings, kidnappings, corruption ... , then annexion of Crimea, fomenting revolt in Donetsk and Lugansk and now an invasion ?

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

Wasn't it the other way around? When the ones who wanted to break away from Ukraine oppression have been shelled over 8 years?

Documented by the OSCE monitors over 8 years, even up to this February, when after they were ordered to leave the country?  

The same claim taken out of context again, would you like me to provide my previous posts when I've replied to you on this before?

 

In the meantime, on topic and the here and now this is the OSCE meeting on the 5th April:

 

Today at the #OSCE Special Permanent Council meeting on Russia's ongoing aggression against Ukraine @PLinOSCE invited to observe a minute of silence for the victims of #Bucha. Can you spot the one delegation that remained seated during the minute of silence? Yes, you are right Russia.

 

OSCE Ambassadors, including @USAmbOSCE, walked out of today's Permanent Council meeting, as the Russian representative repeated lies that Russia was not responsible for the atrocities in #Bucha. We will hold those responsible accountable. #StandWithUkraine

 

[Lacessit]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

I don't underestimate anything. I've been saying for ages that our over reliance on technology is going to lead to tears, and I may yet see that come to pass in the near future. Unfortunately, despite avoiding technology as much as possible ( don't own one of those so called smart phones, use cash instead of paywave etc ) I'll suffer just as much as any tech obsessed when it all falls down.

 

 

 

IMO the Russian people are far from turning on Putin, and as the west increases the pressure are likely to support him more, IMO. When threatened by outside forces, tribes usually put aside differences to survive. IMO making ordinary Russians suffer is going to have the opposite effect to what the west wants.

The reliance on technology is working pretty well in Ukraine. Thanks to the thievery of Putin and his cronies, Russia tried to build its military on the cheap. A T-72 tank has almost  none of the technology of an Abrams M1, and it's showing in the way modern shoulder-launched missiles are decimating them. The T-90 is just a dressed-up T-72.

 

Hypersonic missiles are fine for terrorizing civilian populations, but unless they have a nuke on the pointy end, they are no good for anything else. And expensive. Classic case of putting the eggs in the wrong basket.

 

Russia leads the world in one statistic. Their national minimum wage has gone backwards by -20% under Putin. Most nations have had an increase in that parameter despite COVID.

I don't know how much the average Russian knows about economics. Having said that, if Jacinta crunched whatever you are getting by way of earnings in income or pension by 20%, I guess you would be pretty p###ed with her.

 

[billd766]

11 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I agree , NATO Countries shouldn't get involved unless Russia attacks a NATO County first .

We shouldn't join in with the war  , let them get on with it and we should stay out of the battles

Tell that to the widows and orphans, and the civilians who have been killed by the Russian forces in the Ukraine as invaders.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243

 

Ukraine conflict: 'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'.

 

In a quiet, rural neighbourhood 70km (45miles) west of Kyiv, we spoke to Anna, who is 50. We have changed her name to protect her identity.

Anna told us that on 7 March she had been at home with her husband when a foreign soldier barged in.

"At gunpoint, he took me to a house nearby. He ordered me: 'Take your clothes off or I'll shoot you.' He kept threatening to kill me if I didn't do as he said. Then he started raping me," she said.

Anna described her attacker as a young, thin, Chechen fighter allied with Russia.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Tell that to the widows and orphans, and the civilians who have been killed by the Russian forces in the Ukraine as invaders.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61071243

 

Ukraine conflict: 'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'.

 

In a quiet, rural neighbourhood 70km (45miles) west of Kyiv, we spoke to Anna, who is 50. We have changed her name to protect her identity.

Anna told us that on 7 March she had been at home with her husband when a foreign soldier barged in.

"At gunpoint, he took me to a house nearby. He ordered me: 'Take your clothes off or I'll shoot you.' He kept threatening to kill me if I didn't do as he said. Then he started raping me," she said.

Anna described her attacker as a young, thin, Chechen fighter allied with Russia.

So the British army should go and fight the Russians because a Woman got raped ?

There have been similar allegations about Ukrainians doing similar things to ethnic Russians in Ukraine .

   How should we procced now ?

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So the British army should go and fight the Russians because a Woman got raped ?

There have been similar allegations about Ukrainians doing similar things to ethnic Russians in Ukraine .

   How should we procced now ?

One? Really? You're unaware that rape by Russian forces is widespread and systematic? Really?

 

Where's you evidence of similar behaviour by the Ukraine military? Are you going to put up or...?

[rott]

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I don't think that's possible. Putin has succeeded in reverting Russia to a hermit kingdom, just like North Korea. Russia is an international pariah, no foreign company wants to be there anymore.

In North Korea, the population has been cut off from any modern living. I understand only the ruling elite can own mobile phones. You can't miss what you never knew was there.  Facebook, Twitter? What are they?

The danger for Putin is the average Russian knows what they had, before the sanctions kicked in. Add to that a body count he can't hide for ever, and it's a recipe for regime change, just as Afghanistan was the catalyst that led to the dissolution of the USSR.

Thank you Lacessit, you have reassured me.

Unfortunately as I have little to no knowledge of the situation tbl also makes sense to me.

But for the moment I am happy. 

[billd766]

23 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So the British army should go and fight the Russians because a Woman got raped ?

There have been similar allegations about Ukrainians doing similar things to ethnic Russians in Ukraine .

   How should we procced now ?

There you go again putting your words into my mouth.

 

Did you even read the whole of the BBC link, or even any of it?

 

Unless my computer is typing my replies can you point me to the bit I supposedly wrote about the British army should go and fight the Russians?

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, billd766 said:

There you go again putting your words into my mouth.

 

Did you even read the whole of the BBC link, or even any of it?

 

Unless my computer is typing my replies can you point me to the bit I supposedly wrote about the British army should go and fight the Russians?

The discussion  had moved onto whether the British army/Nato should get involved or not and I thought that you would have read the previous replies and would have known that .

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Today at the #OSCE Special Permanent Council meeting on Russia's ongoing aggression against Ukraine @PLinOSCE invited to observe a minute of silence for the victims of #Bucha. Can you spot the one delegation that remained seated during the minute of silence? Yes, you are right Russia.

What's so difficult to understand why he remained seated? Russia denies the accusations, they presented their findings about that incident, that however, the others are not willing to listen to.

 

As of OSCE monitoring Ukraine:

The OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) was deployed on 21 March 2014, following a request to the OSCE by Ukraine’s government and a consensus decision by all 57 OSCE participating States. The SMM is an unarmed, civilian mission, present on the ground 24/7 in all regions of Ukraine. Its main tasks are to observe and report in an impartial and objective way on the situation in Ukraine; and to facilitate dialogue among all parties to the crisis. 

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine

 

Why the SMM were deployed - just before the war started? I have placed here a link to their findings from the days before they were ordered out, I do not think that it can be found...

[Saanim]

How to end the war and how to end the people suffering?  As the Ireland MEP declared, surely not by more weapons deliveries - as we hear on the daily shows in world parliaments one by one, but by diplomacy. 

 

The highest diplomat in EU Joseph Borrell declared that the war can be ended only by military means.

[frantick]

The elephant in the room, is my fear that the moment NATO (ie USA) gets drawn into this war, China will move on Taiwan. 

 

I have a simple solution for that. The US can preempt the strike by stating its intent to destroy All chip factories on the island. Taiwan is useless to the Chinese without those factories. I say let the world build back and see who wins round two of the chip wars. 

 

Of course, big US corporations would never allow that option, and they do control the government. 

[KhaoYai]

10 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If you are concerned about atrocities, why didnt European Countries step in  when there was genocide happening recently in Myanmar , with about 1 million people being chased off their land and murdered , raped and killed or the continuing atrocities occurring in Yemen , in both Countries, far worse things happened than are now happening in Ukraine .

   Is it because Ukrainians are Caucasian that you feel the need to help them  ?

I note that despite the fact that I pointed out that you had jumped the gun with the above accusations, with no evidence at all - you fail to acknowledge that you were wrong to do so.

[KhaoYai]

7 hours ago, tgw said:

because Ukraine wants to break free from Russian oppression and control over their lives.

Yes, its the right of any and all countries to determine their own destiny. Ukraine didn't want to become another Belarus but I suspect they knew that Russia would not accept their total independence - hence their wish to join NATO.

 

I do not believe for one minute, Putin's assertions that Ukraine's membership of NATO would create a threat to Russia - that's just a smokescreen to cover his real intentions.

 

I doesn't stack up - he already has 2 NATO members on his border and taking Ukraine would add more to that.

 

NATO is not an aggressor, its aim is defence and protection organisation that was formed in response to the threat from the former Soviet Union.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

What's so difficult to understand why he remained seated? Russia denies the accusations, they presented their findings about that incident, that however, the others are not willing to listen to.

 

As of OSCE monitoring Ukraine:

The OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) was deployed on 21 March 2014, following a request to the OSCE by Ukraine’s government and a consensus decision by all 57 OSCE participating States. The SMM is an unarmed, civilian mission, present on the ground 24/7 in all regions of Ukraine. Its main tasks are to observe and report in an impartial and objective way on the situation in Ukraine; and to facilitate dialogue among all parties to the crisis. 

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine

 

Why the SMM were deployed - just before the war started? I have placed here a link to their findings from the days before they were ordered out, I do not think that it can be found...

Sure thing.

 

 

[Lacessit]

34 minutes ago, frantick said:

The elephant in the room, is my fear that the moment NATO (ie USA) gets drawn into this war, China will move on Taiwan. 

 

I have a simple solution for that. The US can preempt the strike by stating its intent to destroy All chip factories on the island. Taiwan is useless to the Chinese without those factories. I say let the world build back and see who wins round two of the chip wars. 

 

Of course, big US corporations would never allow that option, and they do control the government. 

IMO China is watching the conflict in Ukraine very carefully, and it does not like what it sees. The myth of the mighty Russian army has turned to dust, Western weapons are pulverising armaments that were thought to be fairly impregnable.

If it's that difficult to invade over land, how much more difficult is it over 120 km of water?

With the USA possessing many more nuclear subs than the Chinese.

 

The other aspect is globalisation, which has benefited China immensely, and kept its population fed. Become a pariah nation like Russia, with the access to international markets cut off, and the Chinese economic miracle becomes very fragile. China has to export, or starve. America is its single biggest customer.

[Berkshire]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So the British army should go and fight the Russians because a Woman got raped ?

There have been similar allegations about Ukrainians doing similar things to ethnic Russians in Ukraine .

   How should we procced now ?

Why do you listen to Russian propaganda?  Russia has been lying about this war from the moment they said they had no intention of invading Ukraine.  Are you Russian?

[Mac Mickmanus]

15 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Why do you listen to Russian propaganda?  Russia has been lying about this war from the moment they said they had no intention of invading Ukraine.  Are you Russian?

Well of course they are . 

Its the advantage of the surprise element .

Russians are hardly going to announce the invasions before hand, are they .

Russians are hardly going to give Ukraine a weeks notice of the invasion !!!!!!!

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So the British army should go and fight the Russians because a Woman got raped ?

There have been similar allegations about Ukrainians doing similar things to ethnic Russians in Ukraine .

   How should we procced now ?

I think you know very well that its far bigger than one woman being raped.  In almost all areas of Ukraine that were held by Russia for a few weeks - there is evidence of mass rape and murder.  Daily I hear testimony of victims - just yesterday the testimony of a young woman raped by Russian soldiers.  A Russian tank arrived at their home, Russian soldiers shot her husband and then raped her - threatening they would kill her 5 year old son if she resisted.  She escaped after being raped but the Russians burned her house down as they left.

 

These reports are widespread - mass graves are being found in all areas previously occupied by the Russians.  How should we proceed now?  I think its obvious what we should do, the question is, do we have the guts to do it?

 

As for allegations of Ukranian war crimes - they should also be investigated and if found to be true - prosecutions should take place.  The difference being that the Ukranian government has already said it is investigating the claims whereas the Russians deny everything.

 

But they have always denied everything - from using a chemical weapon in the UK to their actions in Ukraine, Jeez, if it wasn't for satellite imagery they'd probably deny they even have any forces in Ukraine - its like listening to kids lies, 'the dog ate my homework' style.  According to Russia - anything that accuses them of wrong doing is pure western propaganda.

[KhaoYai]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well of course they are . 

Its the advantage of the surprise element .

Russians are hardly going to announce the invasions before hand, are they .

Russians are hardly going to give Ukraine a weeks notice of the invasion !!!!!!!

I don't think anyone was surprised.

[Berkshire]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well of course they are . 

Its the advantage of the surprise element .

Russians are hardly going to announce the invasions before hand, are they .

Russians are hardly going to give Ukraine a weeks notice of the invasion !!!!!!!

Lordy.  Are you being deliberately obtuse?  There was no surprise element.  Everyone knew.  Yet, Russia kept denying.  Just like they're denying the atrocities.

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, Berkshire said:

Lordy.  Are you being deliberately obtuse?  There was no surprise element.  Everyone knew.  Yet, Russia kept denying.  Just like they're denying the atrocities.

How did you know that Russia were going to invade Ukraine ?

If you knew, how did you know ?

Atrocities happen regularly the World over , its not down to us to tell everyone else how they should behave .

  We need to keep out of wars, wars which dont involve us , not our business 

[ozimoron]

30 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO China is watching the conflict in Ukraine very carefully, and it does not like what it sees. The myth of the mighty Russian army has turned to dust, Western weapons are pulverising armaments that were thought to be fairly impregnable.

If it's that difficult to invade over land, how much more difficult is it over 120 km of water?

With the USA possessing many more nuclear subs than the Chinese.

 

The other aspect is globalisation, which has benefited China immensely, and kept its population fed. Become a pariah nation like Russia, with the access to international markets cut off, and the Chinese economic miracle becomes very fragile. China has to export, or starve. America is its single biggest customer.

The problem is that if Germany is hostage to Russian energy, we haven't seen anything compared to the world's reliance on Chinese goods.

[Will B Good]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

How did you know that Russia were going to invade Ukraine ?

If you knew, how did you know ?

Atrocities happen regularly the World over , its not down to us to tell everyone else how they should behave .

  We need to keep out of wars, wars which dont involve us , not our business 

Damn....if only someone like you was around in 1939 the world would be in such a better place....mein herr.