Don't mention the war?

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Luhansk and Donetsk are part of Ukraine!

Enough already with the Putin propaganda.

So, is it normal that they have been bombarded by their own govt over 8 years, being killed 14,000 (some say 17,000), despite the MInsk treaties guaranteed by Western govt, mainly Germany and France, the atrocities certified by intl. monitors? 

 

(BTW, Zelensky has not been happy with the treaties, that's why he does not want now the German president Steinmeier to come now for his role as then FM in those treaties). 

 

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Saanim said:

So, is it normal that they have been bombarded by their own govt over 8 years, being killed 14,000 (some say 17,000), despite the MInsk treaties guaranteed by Western govt, mainly Germany and France, the atrocities certified by intl. monitors? 

 

(BTW, Zelensky has not been happy with the treaties, that's why he does not want now the German president Steinmeier to come now for his role as then FM in those treaties). 

 

 

About as normal as having a large powerful neighbor sponsor a civil war in your country. It's the separatists the Ukrainian government is attacking. Separatist backed by Russia. As you well know.

[KhaoYai]

7 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

She is right. Why is there no outcry about all the countries who are being bombed by Western countries for years and still is ongoing?

That is a completely separate matter - even if its true, it doesn't take away from what's going on in the Ukraine and that argument should be in its own thread.

 

Personally, I think that anyone who supports or believes Russia in any of this, needs to see a doctor.

[KhaoYai]

32 minutes ago, Saanim said:

So, is it normal that they have been bombarded by their own govt over 8 years, being killed 14,000 (some say 17,000),

So you think Ukraine should simply give in to a group of (mainly Russians) people living in the country that want to breakaway?

 

What you don't seem to realise is that Russia has promoted and backed that insurgency.

 

Within 30 miles of where I live in the UK there is a large Asian communtiy, mainly Pakistani.  Should the UK give up its land to them if they decide they want to breakaway?  I can tell you that that would never happen.  Ukraine has every right to protect its territory.  Would Putin accept the same in reverse?

[KhaoYai]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Well, I for one hope that never happens, else it's possible millions upon millions will die in a nuclear holocaust. Is that what you want?

What I want is peace, Putin to stop his agression immediately and for the kiling and raping to stop.  Unfortunately we are dealing with someone who is clearly unhinged and will not stop until he dies.  He lives in a parallel reality and seems to have got so far into it that he believes his own lies now.

 

Even if he is somehow persuaded to stop now, he will remain a threat and NATO will have to stand up to him one day.  I'd rather that is dealt with now rather than leave it to my kids/grandkids.  Sadly, dealing with it may include a nuclear war yes but what do you want........should Putin be allowed to take Ukraine and then keep on going?  He will almost certainly do that - especially if nobody steps in to help Ukraine.

 

Do you believe Putin's line that he is liberating Ukraine from the Nazis or his altenative line that he will not accept a NATO member on his border?

Edited April 13, 2022 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

Someone else had a go at me a couple of days ago because I hadn't mentioned other atrocities going on around the world - as if I supported them - even accused me of racsim.

 

What these people don't seem to realise is that your thread is about Ukraine, I doubt anyone is denying that other conflicts take place but I fail to see why that should prevent any opposition or comment against Russia.

 

I for example, don't understand why refugees from Ukraine are acceptable in the UK but those from Syria are not.  But should that stop Ukrainian refugees from coming to the UK?  Clearly it should not. I am not starting a discussion on that matter by the way people, I'm simply using it as an example.

[billd766]

25 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

Are you at all aware of the  atrocities enacted  by the  "defenders of  democracy"  within even the last  50 years that  are ignored? It is  only the atrocities  of the   made enemy that  recieve attention

Why stop at 50 years ago?

Go back a little earlier when the USSR was fighting the Germans at the tail end of WW2.

Why stop there?

Go back to when the Saracens were fighting the Christians or when the Mongols were up to the centre of Europe, or even further back when the Romans were conquering the whole of Europe.

 

Of course that would be off topic, which as I recall, is about the Ukrainians fight the Russians for the control of the Ukraine in 2022.

[metisdead]

Off topic deflection posts attempting to hijack the topic into other discussions and the replies have been removed:

 

Forum Netiquette

 

7. Please do not post off-topic responses in an attempt to hijack the thread. Such posts will be deleted. 

 

https://aseannow.com/terms/

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

About as normal as having a large powerful neighbor sponsor a civil war in your country. It's the separatists the Ukrainian government is attacking. Separatist backed by Russia. As you well know.

So, it's OK that the "separatists" who have been oppressed by the own govt are attacked  by their own govt? It was too much even for the Western govts, that's why the Minsk treaties. 

 

Ever heard about the right of self-determination? Hadn't it been the case of Kosovo?

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, Saanim said:

So, it's OK that the "separatists" who have been oppressed by the own govt are attacked  by their own govt? It was too much even for the Western govts, that's why the Minsk treaties. 

 

Ever heard about the right of self-determination? Hadn't it been the case of Kosovo?

Really? Is that why the Minsk agreement was created? Because it "was too much even for the Western govts"? You got some source not linked to the Russian govt. to back up that assertion?  Were the people living in Minsk oppressed by their own govt? Or was that just more Russian disinformation?

[KhaoYai]

25 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

It seems to have  accepted that  comparatives  with  Hitler's regime  is permissible

Let me try to explain:

 

The reason for that stems from the concern that Putin's actions are born out of his own paranoid fears that the West is against Russia.  Similar concerns relate to the fact that Putin may lash out because of sanctions imposed on Russia just as Hitler did in response to the Treaty of Versailles.

48 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

Where and  when genuine and provable atrocities occur within or outside of armed conflict zones thay should be investigated and pursued  regardless of geopolitical significance!

I think most people would agree with you but those conflicts are not connected to the war in Ukriane.

[Saanim]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Really? Is that why the Minsk agreement was created? Because it "was too much even for the Western govts"? You got some source not linked to the Russian govt. to back up that assertion?  Were the people living in Minsk oppressed by their own govt? Or was that just more Russian disinformation?

I think you are getting confused. Minsk is a capitol of Belarus where the treaties (agreements) Minsk I and II were handled (Google is your friend).

 

Whether MInsk people are oppressed and/or it is just a Russian disinformation? It is not a matter of this forum (perhaps next time in a near future).       

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, Saanim said:

I think you are getting confused. Minsk is a capitol of Belarus where the treaties (agreements) Minsk I and II were handled (Google is your friend).

 

Whether MInsk people are oppressed and/or it is just a Russian disinformation? It is not a matter of this forum (perhaps next time in a near future).       

Thanks for catching the typo. It doesn't change the fact that you haven't backed up your claims. As per usual.

Edited April 13, 2022 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

OSCE Expert Mission report has just been published, this only takes into account war crimes and violations from the 24th Feb to 1st April, the other numerous crimes committed in Bucha and other places since then will be in a follow up. It should also be noted that Russia refused to take part in the investigation.

 

Link here, Its a pdf download of 108 pages so here's just a few quotes from the first couple:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/f/a/515868.pdf

 

REPORT ON VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAW, WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY COMMITTED IN UKRAINE SINCE 24 FEBRUARY 2022

 

credible evidence suggesting that such violations concerning even the most fundamental human rights (right to life, prohibition of torture and other inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment) have been committed, mostly in the areas under the effective control of Russia

 

The Mission is not able to conclude whether the Russian attack on Ukraine per se may qualify as a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population. It however holds that some patterns of violent acts violating IHRL, which have been repeatedly documented in the course of the conflict, such as targeted killing, enforced disappearance or abductions of civilians, including journalists and local officials, are likely to meet this qualification. Any single violent act of this type, committed as part of such an attack and with the knowledge of it, would then constitute a crime against humanity.

 

the mission found clear patterns of IHL violations by the Russian forces in their conduct of hostilities. If they had respected their IHL obligations in terms of distinction, proportionality and precautions in attack and concerning specially protected objects such as hospitals, the number of civilians killed or injured would have remained much lower. Similarly, considerably fewer houses, hospitals, cultural properties, schools, multi-story residential buildings, water stations and electricity systems would have been damaged or destroyed. Furthermore, much of the conduct of Russian forces displayed in the parts of Ukraine it occupied before and after 24 February 2022, including through its proxies, the self-proclaimed “republics” of Donetsk and Luhansk, violates IHL of military occupation.

 

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

OSCE Expert Mission report has just been published, this only takes into account war crimes and violations from the 24th Feb to 1st April, the other numerous crimes committed in Bucha and other places since then will be in a follow up. It should also be noted that Russia refused to take part in the investigation.

 

Link here, Its a pdf download of 108 pages so here's just a few quotes from the first couple:

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/f/a/515868.pdf

 

REPORT ON VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN AND HUMAN RIGHTS LAW, WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY COMMITTED IN UKRAINE SINCE 24 FEBRUARY 2022

 

credible evidence suggesting that such violations concerning even the most fundamental human rights (right to life, prohibition of torture and other inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment) have been committed, mostly in the areas under the effective control of Russia

 

The Mission is not able to conclude whether the Russian attack on Ukraine per se may qualify as a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population. It however holds that some patterns of violent acts violating IHRL, which have been repeatedly documented in the course of the conflict, such as targeted killing, enforced disappearance or abductions of civilians, including journalists and local officials, are likely to meet this qualification. Any single violent act of this type, committed as part of such an attack and with the knowledge of it, would then constitute a crime against humanity.

 

the mission found clear patterns of IHL violations by the Russian forces in their conduct of hostilities. If they had respected their IHL obligations in terms of distinction, proportionality and precautions in attack and concerning specially protected objects such as hospitals, the number of civilians killed or injured would have remained much lower. Similarly, considerably fewer houses, hospitals, cultural properties, schools, multi-story residential buildings, water stations and electricity systems would have been damaged or destroyed. Furthermore, much of the conduct of Russian forces displayed in the parts of Ukraine it occupied before and after 24 February 2022, including through its proxies, the self-proclaimed “republics” of Donetsk and Luhansk, violates IHL of military occupation.

 

There's a good summary of it here which is worth reading rather than over 100 pages of pdf just published by the US OSCE Ambassador:

 

Evidence of direct targeting of civilians, attacks on medical facilities, rape, executions, looting, and forced deportation of civilians to Russia.

 

The report documents many particularly egregious attacks, such as the March 9 attack striking the Mariupol Maternity House and Children’s Hospital, determining that the hospital was destroyed by a Russian strike.  The mission concluded that this attack was deliberate, with no effective warning given, and thus constitutes a “clear violation of IHL” –international humanitarian law — and “a war crime” (page 47).  While the Russian government alleged the hospital was used for military purposes, the mission categorically dismissed these claims. 

 

Similarly, the mission found that the March 16 attack on the drama theater in Mariupol that killed approximately 300 people was most likely an egregious violation of international humanitarian law and those who ordered or executed it committed a war crime.  The mission also dismissed the Kremlin’s attempt to blame Ukraine for this and other attacks (p 47-48). 

 

https://osce.usmission.gov/moscow-mechanism-as-a-step-towards-accountability-for-russian-war-crimes/

[Will B Good]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There's a good summary of it here which is worth reading rather than over 100 pages of pdf just published by the US OSCE Ambassador:

 

Evidence of direct targeting of civilians, attacks on medical facilities, rape, executions, looting, and forced deportation of civilians to Russia.

 

The report documents many particularly egregious attacks, such as the March 9 attack striking the Mariupol Maternity House and Children’s Hospital, determining that the hospital was destroyed by a Russian strike.  The mission concluded that this attack was deliberate, with no effective warning given, and thus constitutes a “clear violation of IHL” –international humanitarian law — and “a war crime” (page 47).  While the Russian government alleged the hospital was used for military purposes, the mission categorically dismissed these claims. 

 

Similarly, the mission found that the March 16 attack on the drama theater in Mariupol that killed approximately 300 people was most likely an egregious violation of international humanitarian law and those who ordered or executed it committed a war crime.  The mission also dismissed the Kremlin’s attempt to blame Ukraine for this and other attacks (p 47-48). 

 

https://osce.usmission.gov/moscow-mechanism-as-a-step-towards-accountability-for-russian-war-crimes/

....and putting all that aside, forgetting the.......... 'oh this is just Western propaganda' which some will try to claim......Russia has invaded another country.......end of!!!!

[impulse]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Luhansk and Donetsk are part of Ukraine!

Enough already with the Putin propaganda.

But do they want to be?

 

The world is full of borders that make absolutely no sense in terms of ethnic and national makeup.  Hastily drawn in the wake of WW1 and WW2, and the breakup of the USSR.  Yugoslavia was a perfect example.

 

Over 80% of Crimeans wanted to remain aligned with Russia a year after the annexation.  What do residents of the Donbas region want?

 

[StreetCowboy]

9 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

No when taken out of context it is against the rules. Try reading up on them you may eventually learn something, rather than off topic trolling

The rules are for other people to abide by.  In the War On Truth, the rules only apply to those on the side of truth.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Even if he is somehow persuaded to stop now, he will remain a threat and NATO will have to stand up to him one day.  I'd rather that is dealt with now rather than leave it to my kids/grandkids.  Sadly, dealing with it may include a nuclear war yes but what do you want........should Putin be allowed to take Ukraine and then keep on going?  He will almost certainly do that - especially if nobody steps in to help Ukraine.

There are IMO zero grounds for NATO to be involved, given Ukraine isn't part of NATO.

 

Apparently you don't seem to grasp that if the US and Russia get into nuclear weapon exchanges  there may not be anything to leave to your kids/ grandkids.

Hopefully the people that make the decisions are not convinced that nuclear war is a necessary step in this conflict.

 

I'm pretty sure that China is observing this with extreme interest, and given I live in the southern Pacific I'm more concerned about China than a conflict in Ukraine.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

The rules are for other people to abide by.  In the War On Truth, the rules only apply to those on the side of truth.

If you can discern truth in this situation you are more clever than I by far. I don't trust anything coming out of the "official" media on any "side".

Isn't "truth" the first casualty of war?

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, Saanim said:

So, it's OK that the "separatists" who have been oppressed by the own govt are attacked  by their own govt? It was too much even for the Western govts, that's why the Minsk treaties. 

 

Ever heard about the right of self-determination? Hadn't it been the case of Kosovo?

Ask the people in Chechnya about how much Russia respected their right of self-determination.

[heybruce]

6 hours ago, impulse said:

But do they want to be?

 

The world is full of borders that make absolutely no sense in terms of ethnic and national makeup.  Hastily drawn in the wake of WW1 and WW2, and the breakup of the USSR.  Yugoslavia was a perfect example.

 

Over 80% of Crimeans wanted to remain aligned with Russia a year after the annexation.  What do residents of the Donbas region want?

 

Russia doesn't care what the people of Donbas want.  If Russia cared, it would agree to an internationally monitored fair referendum in which all the people in the region before the separation (not the people remaining after Russia's ethnic cleansing) vote on joining Russia or remaining in Ukraine.

 

I bet Ukraine would agree to such a referendum as part of a peace treaty.  Russia wouldn't.

[KhaoYai]

50 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There are IMO zero grounds for NATO to be involved, given Ukraine isn't part of NATO.

So what do you think should be done about Putin's lunatic expansionism? Sacrifice the people of Ukraine in favour of the 'greater good'? Who has the moral right to do that?  Do you seriously think that Putin will stop at Ukraine?  Do you believe his premise that Ukraine was a threat to Russia's security?

 

Putin has been able to do exactly what he wants for years because nobody has been prepared to stop him - all because of the nuclear threat.  He is a Soviet and clearly regrets the fall of the USSR.  Democracy in Russia is nothing but a sham as is Putin's claim that Ukraine joining NATO would be a threat to his country.  Nobody has threatened Russia or is likely to as long as they remain peaceful - that threat exists only in Putin's alternative reality.

 

What a sad state of affairs that in the 21st century there are conflicts all over the world where states, religious sects

or armed groups seek to impose their will on weaker neighbours or populations and no-one stops it. And human beings are the intelligent species? I completely agree with Zelensky that the UN needs major reform and that Russia for one, has no place at the UN table.

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Apparently you don't seem to grasp that if the US and Russia get into nuclear weapon exchanges  there may not be anything to leave to your kids/ grandkids.

A cheap quip aimed at receiving a clap?  Of course I 'grasp' that. I live within 3 miles (2 in a straight line) of a US 'listening station'/comminications centre and intelligence base in the UK - I'm pretty sure that's high on Putin's target list. 

 

So in your world, we should continue running scared of Russia?  Let Putin decide the world order?  Fantasy? - remember what another expansionist lunatic did in 1939?  We are not dealing with a sane man who has been wronged in some way - we are dealing with a paranoid schizophrenic who has attacked a neighbour for no good reason.

 

No way would I ever wish for a nuclear war where millions die but neither do I think its OK to sacrifice the few for the many - especially when I believe this is just the aggressor's first step.  I don't think I or anyone else has the right to play god. If it requires a nuclear war to stop Putin - so be it.

 

However, I don't think it would actually come to that - Putin has been playing a threat game and so far he's winning.  Pressing the nuclear button would assure the end of Russia but not necessarily other countries/continents.  Russia may have many more nuclear weapons than any other country but not collectively. Its also a fact that free world countries have much better missile defence systems. He's a maniac but I doubt he's suicidal.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

  Russia may have many more nuclear weapons than any other country but not collectively. Its also a fact that free world countries have much better missile defence systems. He's a maniac but I doubt he's suicidal.

The kleptocracy in Russia has diverted funds from the military. An example is Russian pilots who have not had adequate combat practice in the air, or the T-90 tank, which is a T-70 refurbishment with barely any advances in technology. A M1 Abrams could probably slaughter a platoon of T-90's without raising a sweat.

Remember the Kursk in 2000? Putin was president then. A four-page summary of a 133-volume, top-secret investigation revealed "stunning breaches of discipline, shoddy, obsolete and poorly maintained equipment", and "negligence, incompetence, and mismanagement". It concluded that the rescue operation was unjustifiably delayed ( on Putin's orders ) and that the Russian Navy was completely unprepared to respond to the disaster.

Given the history, I do have to wonder how much of Putin's nuclear arsenal is actually operational.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Lacessit

[Bkk Brian]

Details in this new OSCE report are horrific: > a Ukrainian interpreter held in captivity for 9 days by Russian forces in an icy cellar, beaten w/ an iron bar & rifle butts, tortured w/ electricity. > 500,000 Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia & some put in filtration camps.

[KhaoYai]

15 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Given the history, I do have to wonder how much of Putin's nuclear arsenal is actually operational.

Well they've never really been much good at making anything - ever driven a Lada?  The reasons are probably communism in the past and corruption now.

 

There have been almost daily reports of Russian vehicles breaking down - it must be very demoralising for the Russian troops.

 

So I agree, the efficacy of Russia's weaponry is seriously questionable.

 

Talking of Russian troops - Putin could have a major problem when this conflict ends.  Given the reports that some conscripts thought they were on a 'training excercise' and others didn't even know they were in Ukraine, one has to wonder how Putin will be able to keep thousands of non-regular troops quiet and prevent them from informing the Russian public what has actually been going on.

 

There is a way he could do that and blame it on Ukraine but heaven forbid.

Edited April 14, 2022 by KhaoYai

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Well they've never really been much good at making anything - ever driven a Lada?  The reasons are probably communism in the past and corruption now.

 

There have been almost daily reports of Russian vehicles breaking down - it must be very demoralising for the Russian troops.

 

So I agree, the efficacy of Russia's weaponry is seriously questionable.

 

Talking of Russian troops - Putin could have a major problem when this conflict ends.  Given the reports that some conscripts thought they were on a 'training excercise' and others didn't even know they were in Ukraine, one has to wonder how Putin will be able to keep thousands of non-regular troops quiet and prevent them from informing the Russian public what has actually been going on.

 

There is a way he could do that and blame it on Ukraine but heaven forbid.

My guess is Putin could reactivate a gulag or two.

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

Russia doesn't care what the people of Donbas want.  If Russia cared, it would agree to an internationally monitored fair referendum in which all the people in the region before the separation (not the people remaining after Russia's ethnic cleansing) vote on joining Russia or remaining in Ukraine.

 

I bet Ukraine would agree to such a referendum as part of a peace treaty.  Russia wouldn't.

A referendum? That's what the people of Donbas wanted. How did their govt react?

That's why the MInsk treaty was established and later another one, backed by Western powers.  And the intl. monitoring. The results? The current war.  

[ozimoron]

13 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

The purpose of staying on topic should be quite clear - if you can't understand that, that's your problem.

Whataboutery is all that they have. since they can't discuss the topic on its merits.

[ozimoron]

A mission of experts set up by Organization for Security and Cooperation and Europe (OSCE) nations has found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity by Russia in Ukraine, the mission said in a report on Wednesday.

The mission was set up last month by 45 of the OSCE's 57 participating states to look into possible offences in Ukraine including war crimes and to pass on information to bodies such as international tribunals. Russia opposed it.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/clear-patterns-found-that-russia-violated-humanitarian-law-ukraine-osce-2022-04-13/