U.S. approves $820 million military aid package for Ukraine; Russia says iron curtain is ‘already descending’

[billd766]

1 hour ago, blazes said:

Sad.  Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge of the history of Ukraine. But, more to the point, no awareness of what part Ukraine plays in America's (weird) obsession with a relatively weak Russia.  Since 1917, and for 30 years since the collapse of the Soviet Union, America has never quite managed to shrug off the nightmare that the "commies" might one day actually "win" the never-ending war that America has needed to "fight" ever since WW2.

 

And in the never-ending war you need input from the Raytheons of this world....

What have you been indluging in?

[Jingthing]

51 minutes ago, superal said:

No proof . You are a medical person who can give a diagnosis from a video or picture ? 

No specific diagnosis but it's clear that he is a wreck.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Jingthing

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Well the Russians left Afghanistan in February 1989 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=when+did+the+russians+leave+afghanistan&sxsrf=ALiCzsaAAMfhy_26cTNTSfhRqMfzUzCN7w%3A1656917285151&source=hp&ei=JY3CYpDRBujvsAf5_7OYCg&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAYsKbNS9keGfn0mlvrfjnV22bprQshss1&ved=0ahUKEwjQ983x0d74AhXoN-wKHfn_DKMQ4dUDCAw&oq=when+did+the+russians+leave+afghanistan&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAw6BAgjECc6BAguECc6BQgAEIAEOggILhCABBDUAjoLCC4QgAQQxwEQ0QM6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUILhCABFAAWPnhAWCz9QFoAHAAeACAAcgCiAGuQ5IBCDAuMy4zNS4xmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz

 

In April 1988, after years of stalemate, Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev signed a peace accord with Afghanistan. In February 1989, the last Soviet soldier left Afghanistan, where civil war continued until the Taliban’s seizure of power in the late 1990s.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=when+did+the+us+invade+afghanistan&sxsrf=ALiCzsYBbCoRAZHGrzNEoy2GoGjB54QoaQ%3A1656917360016&source=hp&ei=b43CYtfjO8PBkwX6opXABg&iflsig=AJiK0e8AAAAAYsKbgOz7Pjem62yyjH65NTMwml4H41e0&oq=when+did+the+us+invade+&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYATIFCAAQgAQyCggAEIAEEIcCEBQyCggAEIAEEIcCEBQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEOgQIIxAnOgQILhAnOgQIABBDOgoILhDHARDRAxBDOgcILhDUAhBDOgQILhBDOggIABCABBDJA1AAWIVuYN2gAWgAcAB4AIABigKIAYEnkgEEMi0yM5gBAKABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

 

On October 7, 2001, the US invaded Afghanistan to avenge the al-Qaida-orchestrated September 11 terrorist attacks. The primary aim of the US invasion was to hunt down Osama bin Laden and punish the Taliban for providing safe haven to al-Qaida leaders.

It took little effort on part of the US to dismantle the Taliban regime. Bin Laden, however, managed to escape. The former al-Qaida head was eventually killed by US troops in Pakistan's Abbottabad city in 2011.

 

The US arrived over 12 years later for a completely different reason.

 

 

 

3 months into the Ukraine war Russia had already lost more of its troops than their 9 years of fighting in Afghanistan. There's another months losses on top of that now

[Saanim]

7 hours ago, placeholder said:

Have you considered that the Soviet Union's defeat in Afghanistan might be the more appropriate historical analogy? Remember that's when Americans aided the indigenous people to defeat the Soviet machine. Much like the way the USSR helped the Vietnamese defeat the Americans. And the Iranians helped to undermine the Americans in Iraq. 

Do you get the picture now? Outside aid to locals trumps foreign invaders.

"Indigenous people"? Under a leadership of certain Osama Bin Laden? 

Anyway, not even Wikipedia will present it so.  E.g. the one of Zbigniew Brezinski speaks about an "Afghan Trap" (described in his book The Grand Chessboard). And about his interview with a French journalist that however was later denied...   

[Mr Meeseeks]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:13 PM, Hanaguma said:

Russia is not a global threat, at best they are a regional nuisance.

Why are they constantly testing UK airspace and RAF response times then? 

 

Questions, questions.

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Why are they constantly testing UK airspace and RAF response times then? 

 

Questions, questions.

The same reason why British war ships regularly go close to Russian waters ?

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, Saanim said:

"Indigenous people"? Under a leadership of certain Osama Bin Laden? 

Anyway, not even Wikipedia will present it so.  E.g. the one of Zbigniew Brezinski speaks about an "Afghan Trap" (described in his book The Grand Chessboard). And about his interview with a French journalist that however was later denied...   

What are you on about? Bin Laden may have plotted the attack on the USA from Afghanistan, but he certainly didn't lead the resistance against US troops in Afghanistan. Afghanis have a long history of successful resistance to foreign invaders. 

[Bkk Brian]

23 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Why are they constantly testing UK airspace and RAF response times then? 

 

Questions, questions.

They like to try and intimidate, that's their preferred stance in all their relationships. Especially now that their military has been shown for what it really is. Goes hand in hand with the threats of nuclear strikes on Britain they've been dishing out regularly on state TV with Putins allies

[Mr Meeseeks]

18 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The same reason why British war ships regularly go close to Russian waters ?

Navy ships sail everywhere mate, but fighter bombers?

 

 

[transam]

6 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Navy ships sail everywhere mate, but fighter bombers?

 

 

The UK problems with Russian planes are heavy bombers....

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/russisa-raf-typhoons-scramble-b2006736.html

[Cory1848]

10 hours ago, blazes said:

Precisely.  Well put, but surely you did not mean it as I have taken it?? 

 

That is, those who cannot remember  America's defeats in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are condemned to repeat them ad nauseam.....

As pointed out elsewhere here, the circumstances are entirely different. The US could justify attacking Afghanistan (as foolhardy a proposal as that might be, historically speaking), but their adventures in Vietnam and Iraq were clearly disasters. (Somebody here mentioned Raytheon, a point well made.) However, Neville Chamberlain refusing to stand up to Hitler in 1938 broaches issues that go well beyond nationalist hubris or the needs of the military-industrial complex, and these same issues are directly applicable to the situation in Ukraine.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Cory1848 said:

As pointed out elsewhere here, the circumstances are entirely different. The US could justify attacking Afghanistan (as foolhardy a proposal as that might be, historically speaking), but their adventures in Vietnam and Iraq were clearly disasters. (Somebody here mentioned Raytheon, a point well made.) However, Neville Chamberlain refusing to stand up to Hitler in 1938 broaches issues that go well beyond nationalist hubris or the needs of the military-industrial complex, and these same issues are directly applicable to the situation in Ukraine.

Don't know what you mean by "the circumstances are entirely different". Militarily speaking, not so much. An indigenous population is opposing invaders and is being aided by outside powers. That pretty much sums up the situations in Vietnam and Iraq.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The same reason why British war ships regularly go close to Russian waters ?

Probably for the same reasons that Russian warships regularly go close to British, Norwegian, Swedish, German, Icelandic waters and the English Channel close to French waters. They probably sail close to US waters as well.

 

They are testing the countries QRA aircraft and ships.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, transam said:

The UK problems with Russian planes are heavy bombers....

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/russisa-raf-typhoons-scramble-b2006736.html

The Tupolev Tu-95 (Russian: Туполев Ту-95; NATO reporting name: "Bear") is a large, four-engine turboprop-powered strategic bomber and missile platform. First flown in 1952, the Tu-95 entered service with the Long-Range Aviation of the Soviet Air Forces in 1956 and was first used in combat in 2015. It is expected to serve the Russian Aerospace Forces until at least 2040.[1] A development of the bomber for maritime patrol is designated Tu-142

 

[Cory1848]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Don't know what you mean by "the circumstances are entirely different". Militarily speaking, not so much. An indigenous population is opposing invaders and is being aided by outside powers. That pretty much sums up the situations in Vietnam and Iraq.

I think the original comment was about the role of the United States. In Iraq and Vietnam, the US was the invader. In Ukraine, the US is helping the indigenous population against the invader.

[Saanim]

5 hours ago, Saanim said:

"Indigenous people"? Under a leadership of certain Osama Bin Laden? 

Anyway, not even Wikipedia will present it so.  E.g. the one of Zbigniew Brezinski speaks about an "Afghan Trap" (described in his book The Grand Chessboard). And about his interview with a French journalist that however was later denied...   

 

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

What are you on about? Bin Laden may have plotted the attack on the USA from Afghanistan, but he certainly didn't lead the resistance against US troops in Afghanistan. Afghanis have a long history of successful resistance to foreign invaders. 

It seems you have mixed the wars.  My comment was directed on your remark: "Remember that's when Americans aided the indigenous people to defeat the Soviet machine."

And the "indigenous people" were organized by Bin Laden years ago not against USA but along USA in their generous war "to defeat the Soviet machine". Perhaps you should learn a bit more about that, e.g. from The Independent:

 

[placeholder]

Just now, Saanim said:

 

It seems you have mixed the wars.  My comment was directed on your remark: "Remember that's when Americans aided the indigenous people to defeat the Soviet machine."

And the "indigenous people" were organized by Bin Laden years ago not against USA but along USA in their generous war "to defeat the Soviet machine". Perhaps you should learn a bit more about that, e.g. from The Independent:

 

So, that's just an additional example. How does that support your case that the US is making the same mistake in Ukraine that it made in Iraq and Afghanistan?  And Bin Laden was not the leader of the Afghanis against the Russians. He was one of many fighters.

[ericthai]

 

On 7/2/2022 at 1:29 PM, Hanaguma said:

Actually it doesn't. It shows that both in dollars and in GDP, the US is spending more to defend Ukraine than countries like the UK and Germany. Which is of course ridiculous.   I get that Putin has been made into some mythical boogeyman figure in the media, but reality is different. Whether or not Russia takes the Donbass or whatever other territory matters exactly zero to the big picture of the world. Russia has a GDP somewhere in the range of South Korea. The other Europeans should be able to handle the situation if they choose.

 

You want to find an actual enemy? A country that is worth worrying about? Try China.

And what do you think China is thinking when the world is not stepping up to help Ukraine? 

[Saanim]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So, that's just an additional example. How does that support your case that the US is making the same mistake in Ukraine that it made in Iraq and Afghanistan?  And Bin Laden was not the leader of the Afghanis against the Russians. He was one of many fighters.

Seems you have mixed me with somebody else. I did not compare the wars, I just reacted on your remark to the Soviet war in Afghanistan.

Perhaps you should read a bit more about that, it's really not a black-and-white story.  Interesting the Brezinski's role and his famous interview he later allegedly denied., however, many sources mentioning that.       

[ericthai]

14 hours ago, IAMHERE said:

The cool aid from America; The west is always right, don't cha know? 

dont understand your post, so you think what putin is doing is ok? or just everything the west does is wrong?

[Credo]

I suspect that a lot of people don't seem to understand that the money being spent on arming Ukraine, is money that is being spent on arms and equipment that is manufactured in the US.  I suspect some of those companies have a well-oiled lobby in Congress.  

 

For the Hawkish members of Congress, they see Ukraine as a good testing ground and a financial win.  For the less Hawkish members, it's simply the right thing to do to help a country that has been invaded.   

 

I don't know much about the weapon manufacturers in other countries, but I suspect it's not all that difference.  

[gearbox]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:29 PM, Hanaguma said:

Actually it doesn't. It shows that both in dollars and in GDP, the US is spending more to defend Ukraine than countries like the UK and Germany. Which is of course ridiculous.   I get that Putin has been made into some mythical boogeyman figure in the media, but reality is different. Whether or not Russia takes the Donbass or whatever other territory matters exactly zero to the big picture of the world. Russia has a GDP somewhere in the range of South Korea. The other Europeans should be able to handle the situation if they choose.

 

You want to find an actual enemy? A country that is worth worrying about? Try China.

Yup...these pesky Chinese are trying to win the race by working harder and smarter.  Most annoyingly all attempts to kneecap them failed so far. On top of that they look different.

[Bkk Brian]

This will help the oil sanctions kick in a little more and narrow down the vast amounts of money Russia is still raking in.

 

Price cap on Russian oil to be about half of current price, Kishida says

 

Referring to a joint communique released after a summit of the Group of Seven developed nations late last month, Kishida said during a stump speech in Tokyo that a mechanism would be designed so that Russian oil “will not and cannot be bought at a higher price” than the cap.

The communique said an oil price cap plan could include options such as enabling transportation of Russian seaborne crude oil and petroleum products globally only if the oil is purchased at or below a specified price.

 

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/07/03/national/politics-diplomacy/price-cap-russian-oil-half-current-price-kishida-says/

[jchfriis]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:45 PM, Hanaguma said:

Maybe Zelensky shouldn't have been so cocky and should have sat down with Russia before everything kicked off.

Sit down with a dictator like Putin? Oh Yeah, we saw how that worked with Hitler.

[Cory1848]

1 hour ago, Credo said:

I suspect that a lot of people don't seem to understand that the money being spent on arming Ukraine, is money that is being spent on arms and equipment that is manufactured in the US.  I suspect some of those companies have a well-oiled lobby in Congress.  

 

For the Hawkish members of Congress, they see Ukraine as a good testing ground and a financial win.  For the less Hawkish members, it's simply the right thing to do to help a country that has been invaded.   

 

I don't know much about the weapon manufacturers in other countries, but I suspect it's not all that difference.  

I’m sure that when a politician like Biden weighs whether and how much military aid to send to Ukraine, he calculates several things at once: the financial benefit to US arms companies, the sheer politics of not wanting to come off as Neville Chamberlain, the geopolitical need to contain a rogue Russian state and maintain some sort of Western alliance, and the simple moral imperative to do the right thing. Some of these factors are cynical, and some not. But the job for sure is not easy …

[blazes]

2 hours ago, Cory1848 said:

I’m sure that when a politician like Biden weighs whether and how much military aid to send to Ukraine, he calculates several things at once: the financial benefit to US arms companies, the sheer politics of not wanting to come off as Neville Chamberlain, the geopolitical need to contain a rogue Russian state and maintain some sort of Western alliance, and the simple moral imperative to do the right thing. Some of these factors are cynical, and some not. But the job for sure is not easy …

Love it.

In your long list of things that (laughably) Biden is supposed to "weigh" and "calculate" (surely you jest!), you omit one important little item:  Biden

intimated back in February (while the Russians were all lined up on the border) that the USA could live with a "minor incursion"!!!!

And here we are today....

 

 

[heybruce]

37 minutes ago, blazes said:

Love it.

In your long list of things that (laughably) Biden is supposed to "weigh" and "calculate" (surely you jest!), you omit one important little item:  Biden

intimated back in February (while the Russians were all lined up on the border) that the USA could live with a "minor incursion"!!!!

And here we are today....

Biden using US intelligence to describe in great detail Russia's plans for invading Ukraine is the reason why the initial invasion was a costly and embarrassing failure for Russia.

[herfiehandbag]

On 7/3/2022 at 2:14 AM, placeholder said:

Tell that to Finland,, Norway Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Moldova, Georgia...

Absolutely right. What was the phrase; all "far away countries of which we know little"!

 

And that approach ended well didn't it?

[heybruce]

55 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Absolutely right. What was the phrase; all "far away countries of which we know little"!

 

And that approach ended well didn't it?

I've been to four of the countries on that list.  Good people there.

[billd766]

11 hours ago, blazes said:

Love it.

In your long list of things that (laughably) Biden is supposed to "weigh" and "calculate" (surely you jest!), you omit one important little item:  Biden

intimated back in February (while the Russians were all lined up on the border) that the USA could live with a "minor incursion"!!!!

And here we are today....

 

 

Is this what you meant when you said " Biden intimated back in February (while the Russians were all lined up on the border) that the USA could live with a "minor incursion"!!!!

 

Or did you omit the clarification links that I posted below.

 

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-vladimir-putin-moscow-russia-europe-7e06c808f644679afcfe64f66bc83792

 

By MATTHEW LEE, AAMER MADHANI and FRANK JORDANS

January 21, 2022

 

GENEVA (AP) — U.S. President Joe Biden said Thursday that any Russian troop movements across Ukraine’s border would constitute an invasion and that Moscow would “pay a heavy price” for such an action.

It was the latest White House effort to clear up comments Biden made a day earlier when he suggested that a “minor incursion” by Russia into Ukrainian territory could result in a more measured response by the United States and allies.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/joe-biden-press-conference-01-19-22/index.html

 

By Maureen Chowdhury, Meg Wagner, Melissa Macaya, Melissa Mahtani, Fernando Alfonso III and Mike Hayes, CNN

Updated 0522 GMT (1322 HKT) January 20, 2022

 

7:11 p.m. ET, January 19, 2022
White House clarifies Biden's comments on Russia
From CNN's Kevin Liptak

The White House has issued a high-level clarification following President Biden's remarks suggesting potential disunity within NATO over how to respond in the event of a "minor incursion" by Russia into Ukraine.

"President Biden has been clear with the Russian President: If any Russian military forces move across the Ukrainian border, that's a renewed invasion, and it will be met with a swift, severe, and united response from the United States and our Allies," said press secretary Jen Psaki in a statement.
Psaki continued by noting that the president "knows from long experience that the Russians have an extensive playbook of aggression short of military action, including cyberattacks and paramilitary tactics."

Additionally, the statement continued with Psaki adding that Biden "affirmed today that those acts of Russian aggression will be met with a decisive, reciprocal, and united response."

Earlier Wednesday: As part of a live press conference marking his first full year in office, Biden intimated that Western nations may not be fully aligned on how to react should Russia commit a lesser violation. 

"It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and we end up having to fight about what to do and not do," Biden told reporters at an East Room news conference. "But if they actually do what they're capable of doing with the forces amassed on the border, it is going to be a disaster for Russia if they further invade Ukraine."

6:36 p.m. ET, January 19, 2022