LTR Visa is Now available for Long Term Residency

[mrmagyar]

33 minutes ago, DjChris28 said:

This article from a tax accountant is golden in all the tax implications of this visa (This told me everything and then I confirmed it next with the Thailand revenue department itself):

 

https://www.austchamthailand.com/tax-implications-of-remote-working-in-thailand/#:~:text=With few exceptions%2C a foreign,individual is a Thai resident.

 

Have a look under sections "Taxation of a work-from-Thailand professional visa holder"

and also "Double tax agreements (DTA)"

Just to add a couple of points here, RE the link. (And hoping to not come across as a douche about it).

 

The article states - "With few exceptions, foreigners will require a work permit to work in Thailand." That's explicitly not the case for Work from Thailand Professionals.

 

The article also states income tax rates but fails to mention the fixed/flat 17% rate that applies to WFTP.

 

I'm not sure just how well informed/researched the author is, based on the above.

 

[DjChris28]

2 minutes ago, mrmagyar said:

Just to add a couple of points here, RE the link. (And hoping to not come across as a douche about it).

 

The article states - "With few exceptions, foreigners will require a work permit to work in Thailand." That's explicitly not the case for Work from Thailand Professionals.

 

The article also states income tax rates but fails to mention the fixed/flat 17% rate that applies to WFTP.

 

I'm not sure just how well informed/researched the author is, based on the above.

 

The 17% tax rate is for the highly skilled professionals. All other visa types pay normal thai tax rates.

[mrmagyar]

5 minutes ago, DjChris28 said:

The 17% tax rate is for the highly skilled professionals. All other visa types pay normal thai tax rates.

Yes, you're right there.

[khunjeff]

4 hours ago, Zuman said:

After receiving the LTR visa is it a requirement to submit a new TM.30 since we are now on a new/different visa?

Going by the Immigration announcement from a couple of years ago clarifying the requirement to do TM-30s when returning to your habitual residence, the answer would seem to be "yes".

 

That announcement said that you don't have to do another TM-30 when returning from any domestic trip, and don't need to do one when coming back from overseas if you're on a multiple entry visa or a reentry permit for the same visa. If coming back on a different visa, or a visa exempt, a new TM-30 is required. (It would only be needed the first time you come back into the country, since after that the other rule kicks in.)

 

I don't think it's either necessary or possible to do a new TM-30 if you're just staying at home and not going anywhere. 

[aublumberg]

1 hour ago, mrmagyar said:

I'm not sure just how well informed/researched the author is, based on the above.

 

Yes a couple other factual inaccuracies in the article. It also doesn't even mention the Royal decree 743 nor the Revenue Department notification 427, both listed on the BOI LTR website. So the LTR specifics are not duly considered in the article. This is not a surprise since the article is dated 14 Sep 2022 (and thus probably written a week or more prior) at which time the LTR had only just been launched and the info on the BOI LTR website was not as comprehensive as it is today. The majority of the aspects in the article are not dependent on LTR visa but are generally applicable. Similarly, I would expect the average person answering enquiries at the Revenue Department not to know the LTR specifics. It's just too new, and too rare.

 

Here is a more relevant article from an expert firm specialised in Thai tax: Thailand Long Term Resident Visa Tax - SHERRINGS.

 

I've contacted two of the global top four tax and accounting firms and both provide specific tax advisory on this point for around USD2,000 - 3,000. I haven't gone ahead with it at this point due to personal circumstances, but would recommend anyone who is planning to spend any more than 180 days a calendar year in Thailand under a LTR-T visa to consider seeking professional tax advise.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by aublumberg

[DjChris28]

25 minutes ago, aublumberg said:

Yes a couple other factual inaccuracies in the article. It also doesn't even mention the Royal decree 743 nor the Revenue Department notification 427, both listed on the BOI LTR website. So the LTR specifics are not duly considered in the article. This is not a surprise since the article is dated 14 Sep 2022 (and thus probably written a week or more prior) at which time the LTR had only just been launched and the info on the BOI LTR website was not as comprehensive as it is today. The majority of the aspects in the article are not dependent on LTR visa but are generally applicable. Similarly, I would expect the average person answering enquiries at the Revenue Department not to know the LTR specifics. It's just too new, and too rare.

 

Here is a more relevant article from an expert firm specialised in Thai tax: Thailand Long Term Resident Visa Tax - SHERRINGS.

 

I've contacted two of the global top four tax and accounting firms and both provide specific tax advisory on this point for around USD2,000 - 3,000. I haven't gone ahead with it at this point due to personal circumstances, but would recommend anyone who is planning to spend any more than 180 days a calendar year in Thailand under a LTR-T visa to consider seeking professional tax advise.

 

 

But you see, this is what everyone is confused by. Just because you're being paid outside of Thailand but exercising the work in Thailand does NOT make your income foreign sourced. It is actually thai sourced. The source of the income is where you do the work, not where it is paid from. So this 180 day thing is illrellevant. You're taxed from day 1 for any work you exercise in Thailand regardless if it' s being paid into a bank account outside Thailand - I've heard this directly from the Thailand revenue department themselves.

 

The only thing which saves you is a DTA agreement from being taxed in thailand. And that agreement says stay under 183 days in thailand, the employer can't be a tax resident of Thailand and you must not create a PE and you can avoid tax for shorter stays. It under "Dependent personal services" section 2 of the DTA agreements. Usually article 14,15,16 for many countries and then section 2.

 

If you live in Thailand longer than 183 days, then you must look at making sure your home country either does not tax you or you can claim a foreign tax offset. Both of which can be done with my country Australia (Australian companies cannot tax their employees if you live overseas for the whole year). I believe for the USA, your only option will be to claim a foreign tax offset and get a tax refund on the usa side as you are always taxed whereever you go.

[Pib]

5 hours ago, Zuman said:

After receiving the LTR visa is it a requirement to submit a new TM.30 since we are now on a new/different visa?

 

1 hour ago, khunjeff said:

Going by the Immigration announcement from a couple of years ago clarifying the requirement to do TM-30s when returning to your habitual residence, the answer would seem to be "yes".

 

That announcement said that you don't have to do another TM-30 when returning from any domestic trip, and don't need to do one when coming back from overseas if you're on a multiple entry visa or a reentry permit for the same visa. If coming back on a different visa, or a visa exempt, a new TM-30 is required. (It would only be needed the first time you come back into the country, since after that the other rule kicks in.)

 

I don't think it's either necessary or possible to do a new TM-30 if you're just staying at home and not going anywhere. 

Here's the English translation document (one and half pages) of the revised TM30 law which came into effect in 30 June 2020.  Got it from the Aseannow Visa forum where they list all the various immigration laws/regulations/memos and other immigration confusion.

833830297_TM30reportingregulation.pdf

 

To me the two key paragraphs are shown in below snapshot from the doc.    Now I don't see where it specifically says if you get a new visa then you have to do a new TM30.   However, since the 2nd paragraph below says/implies if you leave Thailand on a visa/reentry permit and then come back in within the validity of that visa/reentry permit then no TM30 is required.  Therefore, since that paragraph makes no mention/gives no TM30 waiver for entry on a "new/different" visa then that can imply a TM30 "would" be required in such a case.

 

And from reviewing various posts since the new TM30 law came in effect it seems most agree a new TM30 would be required when switching to a new Visa...like leaving the country to kill off a Non-OA and then coming back in on a Non-O or visa exempt even when returning to the same residence you lived at before switching visas. 

 

To me whether a new TM30 is required when switching to a LTR is murky water. 

 

Since I have a TM30 online acct where I can do a TM30 myself, I did a new TM30.  In fact did it twice....once on immigration extranet TM30 website at: https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/ which I find very confusing and couldn't see where it had a pull down menu for a LTR visa....longest visa shown was 1 year visas....so that is what I used.  And then I did it again using the Android Section 38 mobile app (which apparently is no longer available for download according to Google Play, but if you still have it on your phone it still works)....using the mobile app it did have the various LTR visas in the pull down menu.  Both systems apparently accepted my submissions.....I printed out a snapshot of the screens from both submissions and stapled them in my passport.    But if hadn't had a TM30 online acct, I wouldn't have submitted any TM30....would just waited till sometime in the future when immigration might once again "go crazy" about how important (giggle, giggle) submitting a TM30 is to national security and safety of farangs in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrmagyar]

2 hours ago, DjChris28 said:

But you see, this is what everyone is confused by. Just because you're being paid outside of Thailand but exercising the work in Thailand does NOT make your income foreign sourced. It is actually thai sourced. The source of the income is where you do the work, not where it is paid from. So this 180 day thing is irellevant. You're taxed from day 1 for any work you exercise in Thailand regardless if it' s being paid into a bank account outside Thailand - I've heard this directly from the Thailand revenue department themselves.

I agree that this is the crux of the matter at hand here.

 

The link that @aublumberg refers to directly contradicts your point. And so it would at this stage seem to be an argument between the authority of this Foreign specialist tax advisory, or the Thai tax office.

 

 

I would also tend to side the Sherrings here. It is both my own understanding and corroborates with conversations i've had directly with the BOI team. I would also expect that the tax office are not completely au fait with the LTR visa legislation and are more likely to be relaying 'safety first' advice.

 

It's good discussion though, and it'd be great to get something conclusive either way.

[pepper402]

Thai Los Angeles Consulate took 3 business days to process and approve my e-visa!  I had difficulty making the $1,600 payment and needed to have Chase fraud department on the line when I submitted my payment.   I submitted my application over the weekend and received the approval letter this morning (2 1/2 business days!).   I might have expected such a quick turnaround from the Swiss Consulate.   I thought I was going to get a fancy sticker to put in my Passport.  Maybe I will get one in the mail.  I presume I now take my e-visa approval letter, get on a plane to Thailand, and show Immigration who will put an ugly stamp in my Passport.   Am I missing anything?   

[Misty]

3 hours ago, pepper402 said:

Thai Los Angeles Consulate took 3 business days to process and approve my e-visa!  I had difficulty making the $1,600 payment and needed to have Chase fraud department on the line when I submitted my payment.   I submitted my application over the weekend and received the approval letter this morning (2 1/2 business days!).   I might have expected such a quick turnaround from the Swiss Consulate.   I thought I was going to get a fancy sticker to put in my Passport.  Maybe I will get one in the mail.  I presume I now take my e-visa approval letter, get on a plane to Thailand, and show Immigration who will put an ugly stamp in my Passport.   Am I missing anything?   

Congratulations, that's great news.  Glad to hear the LA Consulate was quick to complete the LTR e-visa. 

 

From here it works pretty much as you state.  Keep a print-out of the e-visa in your passport, as that is the LTR e-visa - unlike other LTR visas, there's no stamp you'll get.  And no fancy sticker coming in the mail. Immigration will only put a small arrival stamp in your passport listing the type of visa, arrival date, and how long you can stay (essentially 5 years). 

 

LTR visa holders can use the Fast Track queue at the airport. Even in Fast Track, the IO may need to consult with colleagues or superiors about how to handle the LTR e-visa, since it's relatively new and few people have them.  But so far in this thread, no one has reported trouble or much delay in going through Immigration.

 

 

[Boomer6969]

I think it might be worth sharing this report from one of my UN former colleagues. It is remarkable in that they have accepted his Cigna health coverage while they refused mine a few weeks prior.

 

 

InfoLetter 09 Report 2023-01-11do.pdf

[TaiMaiTai]

7 hours ago, pepper402 said:

Thai Los Angeles Consulate took 3 business days to process and approve my e-visa!  I had difficulty making the $1,600 payment and needed to have Chase fraud department on the line when I submitted my payment.   I submitted my application over the weekend and received the approval letter this morning (2 1/2 business days!).   I might have expected such a quick turnaround from the Swiss Consulate.   I thought I was going to get a fancy sticker to put in my Passport.  Maybe I will get one in the mail.  I presume I now take my e-visa approval letter, get on a plane to Thailand, and show Immigration who will put an ugly stamp in my Passport.   Am I missing anything?   

Congratulations pepper402! To add another data point for the LA consulate, I applied for the e-visa last night (and had to go through my credit card's fraud department as well) and also got an approval this morning. I wonder if they queue them up and then batch process them all at once.

[User3847385]

Regarding taxes and WFTP category, this information is from LTR visa unit today, apparently there is no 180 day rule and one should not register with the revenue department. As those were my questions for them. 

 

“

Dear Mr. ******,

For WFTP, you have to work for company oversea, so you do not need work permit. Applicant have to work remotely for overseas company from Thailand.
 

And yes, income from overseas is tax exempt. You do not need to register with the Thai revenue department.

Kind regards,
LTR Visa Unit

[JJJJJJJJ]

1 hour ago, User3847385 said:

Regarding taxes and WFTP category, this information is from LTR visa unit today, apparently there is no 180 day rule and one should not register with the revenue department. As those were my questions for them. 

 

“

Dear Mr. ******,

For WFTP, you have to work for company oversea, so you do not need work permit. Applicant have to work remotely for overseas company from Thailand.
 

And yes, income from overseas is tax exempt. You do not need to register with the Thai revenue department.

Kind regards,
LTR Visa Unit

What does it mean "applicant have to work remotely for overseas company from Thailand"?

[anotherexpat4444]

this whole taxation for LTR-WFT  getting more confusing here - 

 

When I contacted BOI  they told me  no tax for any income earned outside Thailand .  They did not mention any 180 days rule . 

[Alotoftravel]

I wish BOI can educate TAT that long term visa holders like 10 years residence visa holders be included in the group with those with work permit: 

 

Tourism and Sports Minister Phiphat Ratchakitprakarn. Regarding b300-tourist-fee-to-take-effect-in-june

 

[Misty]

15 hours ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

this whole taxation for LTR-WFT  getting more confusing here - 

 

When I contacted BOI  they told me  no tax for any income earned outside Thailand .  They did not mention any 180 days rule . 

I think an important definition to clarify would be "income earned outside Thailand."

 

Does the LTR visa change the definition? Does what would normally be considered "Thai source" (because the earner is working in Thailand, doesn't matter where the company is) for the purpose of the LTR-WFT visa somehow become overseas income, or foreign-sourced?  I don't know, but a tax professional would. 

 

For the residency definition, from PWC "Residents are defined as persons residing in Thailand at one or more times for an aggregate period of 180 days or more in any tax (calendar) year. Short-term residence is not defined under Thai tax regulations."

 

I really appreciate the LTR Unit, most especially their professional courtesy.  However, it's also true that some of the information I've received from LTR unit staff has not been correct. Sooner or later they do correct the wrong information, however, if you have Thai income tax questions now, my suggestion would be to go to a competent Thai tax advisor for clear answers.

 

 

 

[DjChris28]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:12 PM, mrmagyar said:

 

 

 

 

Key word here is "Derived". When you exercise work in Thailand even if the company pays you from outside Thailand is is located outside Thailand, you are still deriving it inside Thailand.

 

That clause would indicate they would not tax you for work you did if you went home for a couple of months and exercised the work back home and then brought that money to Thailand. That's what i think it means.

 

Also they state "Exemption from foreign source income law". The work you exercise in Thailand is not foreign sourced, it is Thai sourced. However, going back home and exercising work back home in your home country would be considered foreign sourced income to Thailand.

 

For example:

a) You work in Thailand from January to March < -- this is taxed in thailand

b) You work in USA from April to May. <-- this is not taxed in thailand

c) You work in Thailand from June to December <-- this is taxed.

 

Point a, is Thai sourced income, point b is foreign sourced income, pojnt c is thai sourced. What that clause is doing is waiving the 180 day rule so you are not taxed regardless of how many days of the year you are in Thailand for work that you EXCERCISE OUTSIDE of Thailand. Normally before these tax rules, in the above scenario you would also be taxed for point b since you are staying longer than 180 days in Thailand and also bringing the money into Thailand.

Edited January 13, 2023 by DjChris28

[Pib]

 

After reading LTR tax law announcements on the LTR website (weblink/snapshot 1 below) multiple times which left my head spinning with all the references to the different Thai tax code sections, maybe we are all over complicating things whether being in Thailand 1 day or 365 days per year. 

 

Maybe it's simply boils down to the LTR infographic below (snapshot 2) which basically says for the LTR Highly Skilled Professional visa category the personal tax rate is 17% max for accessible income from Thailand......and for all LTR visa categories (except maybe the Skilled Professional category based on the announcements) overseas income is tax exempt. 

 

I think the most confusing laws/regulations/agreements "for any country" on Earth is their tax laws/regulations/agreements.   And all too often info published on tax accountants/law firms websites can sometimes confuse things even more just to round-up business. 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/page/laws-regulations.html

 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/LTRbrochure_EN.pdf

Edited January 13, 2023 by Pib

[Misty]

11 hours ago, Pib said:

 

After reading LTR tax law announcements on the LTR website (weblink/snapshot 1 below) multiple times which left my head spinning with all the references to the different Thai tax code sections, maybe we are all over complicating things whether being in Thailand 1 day or 365 days per year. 

 

Maybe it's simply boils down to the LTR infographic below (snapshot 2) which basically says for the LTR Highly Skilled Professional visa category the personal tax rate is 17% max for accessible income from Thailand......and for all LTR visa categories (except maybe the Skilled Professional category based on the announcements) overseas income is tax exempt. 

 

I think the most confusing laws/regulations/agreements "for any country" on Earth is their tax laws/regulations/agreements.   And all too often info published on tax accountants/law firms websites can sometimes confuse things even more just to round-up business. 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/page/laws-regulations.html

 

 

https://ltr.boi.go.th/documents/LTRbrochure_EN.pdf

It's all in that pesky definition:  what is "overseas income"

[Misty]

The latest LTR program numbers from a BoI LTR presentation yesterday:

To date:

*2,120 applications

* 745 approved

* 1,168 in process

* 207 rejected (but it was noted that about half of these apparently returned for more information or translations, so not fully rejected)

 

Top 5 nationalities applying:

* USA 386

* China 247

* Russia 182

* UK 168

* Germany 121

 

Breakdown of LTR visas approved:

* Wealthy Global Citizens 41

* Wealthy Pensioners 254

* Work from Thailand Professionals 216

* Highly Skilled Professionals 75

* Dependents 159

[mrmagyar]

14 hours ago, DjChris28 said:

Key word here is "Derived". When you exercise work in Thailand even if the company pays you from outside Thailand is is located outside Thailand, you are still deriving it inside Thailand.

 

That clause would indicate they would not tax you for work you did if you went home for a couple of months and exercised the work back home and then brought that money to Thailand. That's what i think it means.

 

Also they state "Exemption from foreign source income law". The work you exercise in Thailand is not foreign sourced, it is Thai sourced. However, going back home and exercising work back home in your home country would be considered foreign sourced income to Thailand.

 

For example:

a) You work in Thailand from January to March < -- this is taxed in thailand

b) You work in USA from April to May. <-- this is not taxed in thailand

c) You work in Thailand from June to December <-- this is taxed.

 

Point a, is Thai sourced income, point b is foreign sourced income, pojnt c is thai sourced. What that clause is doing is waiving the 180 day rule so you are not taxed regardless of how many days of the year you are in Thailand for work that you EXCERCISE OUTSIDE of Thailand. Normally before these tax rules, in the above scenario you would also be taxed for point b since you are staying longer than 180 days in Thailand and also bringing the money into Thailand.

This is very well thought out and put together Chris.

 

I just think it would be misleading in the extreme if the LTR visa holders were expected to pay tax on their earnings here. Given that these questions are simply never asked of the Elite visa holders either, i'm really fairly confident that the intention is that LTR holders are not going to be asked to pay tax.

 

That said, I agree that sufficient ambiguity has been left to make it uncomfortable. But that is the way here.

 

I quote another member recently: "In Thailand there is always engineered uncertainty because that introduces more opportunity for tea money."

[DjChris28]

5 hours ago, mrmagyar said:

 Given that these questions are simply never asked of the Elite visa holders either, i'm really fairly confident that the intention is that LTR holders are not going to be asked to pay tax.

That's because it's not expected that you are working remotely on the elite visa. Its totally illegal to do so, it's just that the thai authorities turn their head the other way.

 

You can ask any thai tax account or the thailand revenue department if it's legal to work on an elite visa and they will always say you need a work permit.

[DjChris28]

8 hours ago, Misty said:

It's all in that pesky definition:  what is "overseas income"

Right

 Their definition should also include the words "if it is exercised from ...., then it will be tax free"

[Pib]

11 hours ago, Misty said:

* 207 rejected (but it was noted that about half of these apparently returned for more information or translations, so not fully rejected)

 

Misty,

   Where you say about half of apparently Returned for more information is that like when an application's status changes to "Request for Additional Docs" which doesn't seem to be uncommon for many applications?     In this long thread quite a few applicants got such requests (to include me) like maybe wanting a copy of your tax return to help validate other income docs you initially provided.....or maybe more medical coverage docs.

 

   Or was the Returned application for more serious documentation issues beyond just a request for additional docs?   Like maybe just flat out rejecting some docs?

 

   Just wondering if BoI might have elaborated a little more on issues causing a Rejection.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Pib

[Misty]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

Misty,

   Where you say about half of apparently Returned for more information is that like when an application's status changes to "Request for Additional Docs" which doesn't seem to be uncommon for many applications?     In this long thread quite a few applicants got such requests (to include me) like maybe wanting a copy of your tax return to help validate other income docs you initially provided.....or maybe more medical coverage docs.

 

   Or was the Returned application for more serious documentation issues beyond just a request for additional docs?   Like maybe just flat out rejecting some docs?

 

   Just wondering if BoI might have elaborated a little more on issues causing a Rejection.

 

 

 

Unfortunately I'm not sure what was meant by that comment. There wasn't more elaboration and no one asked about it in the Q&A.  And I'm afraid I was too busy scribbling numbers and just wrote a note on the side about the rejection figure.

[Misty]

3 hours ago, DjChris28 said:

That's because it's not expected that you are working remotely on the elite visa. Its totally illegal to do so, it's just that the thai authorities turn their head the other way.

 

You can ask any thai tax account or the thailand revenue department if it's legal to work on an elite visa and they will always say you need a work permit.

Correct, and to work you also need a NonB - this is the case even though you already have the elite card

[Pib]

12 hours ago, Misty said:

The latest LTR program numbers from a BoI LTR presentation yesterday:

To date:

*2,120 applications

* 745 approved

* 1,168 in process

* 207 rejected (but it was noted that about half of these apparently returned for more information or translations, so not fully rejected)

 

Top 5 nationalities applying:

* USA 386

* China 247

* Russia 182

* UK 168

* Germany 121

 

Breakdown of LTR visas approved:

* Wealthy Global Citizens 41

* Wealthy Pensioners 254

* Work from Thailand Professionals 216

* Highly Skilled Professionals 75

* Dependents 159

 

Well, the BoI LTR Visa with 745 approved over approx 4 months (around 186/month) is certainly doing better than its sister BoI SMART Visa program which shows 1060 approved over 49 months (around 22/month)

 

https://smart-visa.boi.go.th/smart/pages/statistics.html

SMART Visa Results over 49 months from 1 Feb 2018 to 28 Feb 2022

Edited January 14, 2023 by Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

 

Well, the BoI LTR Visa with 745 approved over approx 4 months (around 186/month) is certainly doing better than its sister BoI SMART Visa program which shows 1060 approved over 49 months (around 22/month)

 

https://smart-visa.boi.go.th/smart/pages/statistics.html

SMART Visa Results over 49 months from 1 Feb 2018 to 28 Feb 2022

Americans at the top of both nationality lists... I figured we'd be relatively high on the lists given the size of the U.S. population, but I didn't expect we'd be at the top of both... and by a pretty wide margin... especially considering the Chinese and Japanese business presences here.

 

But perhaps it's a result of that famous and often mis-attributed American slogan -- "there's a sucker born every minute."  ????

 

 

[K2938]

9 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Americans at the top of both nationality lists...

And Chinese and Russians on place 2 and 3 of the LTR visa.  Among these are probably a lot of Chinese fleeing the (at that time) zero-covid policies and Russians fleeing from the repercussions of the Ukraine war, so their number and relative share will probably strongly decline in the future when these two special factors do not exist any longer