Red cards issued in Phuket, foreigners deported

[webfact]

Yellow card red card PhuketYellow card and red cards being issued in Phuket

 

By Peter Roche

Phuket’s new ‘red’ and ‘yellow’ card system has resulted in warnings and arrests for several foreigners. The system, launched earlier this month, has indeed been implemented, without details, and is aimed at reducing crime and illegal activity committed by foreigners in Phuket.

 

The new system has been initiated in Phuket under the banner of the local immigration office, but has not, as yet, been introduced in other tourists zones around Thailand.

 

The system awards a ‘yellow’ or ‘red’ card warning for various offences with no avenue for protest or appeal.

 

Full story: https://phuket-go.com/phuket-news/phuket-news/red-cards-issued-in-phuket-foreigners-deported/

 

-- © Copyright Phuket GO 2023-03-20

 

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[eisfeld]

27 minutes ago, webfact said:

The system awards a ‘yellow’ or ‘red’ card warning for various offences with no avenue for protest or appeal.

I'm pretty sure any action by immigration can be appealed to the courts no matter what name they give the systems. Not sure why the journalist claims there is no way of appeal.

[NanLaew]

31 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

I'm pretty sure any action by immigration can be appealed to the courts no matter what name they give the systems. Not sure why the journalist claims there is no way of appeal.

You mean appealed via an orderly formal procedure similar to the one NOT available at their international airports for visitors denied entry based on the arbitrary use of the 'insufficient funds' rule?

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, eisfeld said:

Not sure why the journalist claims there is no way of appeal.

It's arbitrary extra judicial summary punishment.

 

This will backfire in a massive way and make Thailand look worse than a third world backwater.

 

Quote

Five foreigners were also found to have breached immigration laws by failing to register their place of residence, as required by Section 38 of the Immigration Act. The hotels, guesthouses or places of accommodation are required to register where foreign guests are staying. But the Immigration department often blames the foreigner instead of the accommodation provider.

If they start giving out these ridiculous 'cards' for not reporting your address when the law clearly states the hotel should do this then it's a much, much worse situation.

 

Why are they blaming foreigners for Thais who break the law?

Edited March 19, 2023 by ukrules

[ikke1959]

scary... implemented without details.. It means it is  a carte blanche for the immigration.. They can make their own rules again for everybody... Corruption in inevitable...  

[RichardColeman]

Avoidance of Yellow card - 000

Avoidance of Red card - 00000

[hotchilli]

3 hours ago, eisfeld said:

I'm pretty sure any action by immigration can be appealed to the courts no matter what name they give the systems. Not sure why the journalist claims there is no way of appeal.

This is Thailand, they can do what they like.

You think the courts are going to be on the foreigners side?

[ThailandRyan]

53 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

scary... implemented without details.. It means it is  a carte blanche for the immigration.. They can make their own rules again for everybody... Corruption in inevitable...  

Have they not already molested the rules and changed them to suit there own views in several locations around Thailand already? Yes it's a rhetorical question.

[zzaa09]

Time to close the borders - for good.

[AhFarangJa]

Every Immigration office is a mini fiefdom for the bosses. They interpret, and instigate the regulations how they wish, with impunity mainly. 

Break their rules, and pay a 'fine' or leave. 

The one bad thing I can foresee in Phuket is that if you upset a local, or someone else with influence, it is now a lot easier to get rid of you.

Edited March 19, 2023 by AhFarangJa

[Wiggy]

8 hours ago, ukrules said:

Why are they blaming foreigners for Thais who break the law?

It’s easier that way. Plus it also avoids upsetting potentially wealthy Thais (hotel owners), which as we all know is not the done thing here. 

[smedly]

11 hours ago, webfact said:

The system awards a ‘yellow’ or ‘red’ card warning for various offences with no avenue for protest or appeal.

wow

 

 

and no actual details given of the alleged offences, this is so open to abuse, countries have laws that are well defined and understood and supposedly enforced by police - this scheme just bins the whole lot and gives police powers outside the law against foreigners 

[CLW]

Another reason not to step a foot on this mafia island ever again

[eisfeld]

10 hours ago, NanLaew said:

You mean appealed via an orderly formal procedure similar to the one NOT available at their international airports for visitors denied entry based on the arbitrary use of the 'insufficient funds' rule?

You could appeal the denial of entry due to insufficient funds to the courts but no one will do that because it's utterly useless when the person trying to enter was not able to show the necessary cash. The rule might be applied arbitrarily, same like checking for a motorbike license. Doesn't mean that people that get caught can get a free pass.

 

9 hours ago, ukrules said:

It's arbitrary extra judicial summary punishment.

Is it arbitrary though? Seems like they are punishing for offenses that are indeed illegal.

 

9 hours ago, ukrules said:

If they start giving out these ridiculous 'cards' for not reporting your address when the law clearly states the hotel should do this then it's a much, much worse situation.

We are not told the details in these five cases. If the foreigners were renting houses long term they are considered the house master and then take on the responsibility of reporting themselves or any other foreigners staying at the property. I have not seen a single case where a foreigner was punished for a hotel failing o file a TM30 for them.

 

7 hours ago, hotchilli said:

This is Thailand, they can do what they like.

You think the courts are going to be on the foreigners side?

If the foreigner is in the right? Yes. I've sued in Thai court. It wasn't a great experience but won. What's your experience with the courts?

[Elkski]

So getting caught with e cig, I don't use,  or wife checking into a hotel would be a yellow or red?  Half the times when wife checks in they don't ask for my passport.   If I stay in village or friends I never report.   Good think I've spent 17 days in Phuket and don't need to go back.  I guess public nudity or sex would be a yellow card or red depending?   Thailand has some real thinkers in government they do. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Elkski

[Salerno]

15 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

I have not seen a single case where a foreigner was punished for a hotel failing o file a TM30 for them.

Agree with your post other than the above depending if you used "hotel" specifically or as a catch-all for any type of accommodation. People where, particularly at the height of TM30 madness, being fined rather than landlords, and no, the "possessor" argument doesn't cut it when numerous reports where from people just wanting 30 day extensions on tourist or visa exempt others where people who couldn't get the required paperwork from the landlords and others just because (easier to fine the person in the office trying to get a renewal/extension than hunt down the actual person responsible).

 

I believe it was those reports that led to people looking into it and discovering a renter could in fact register and do it themselves - as long as the dodgy landlords (some condo and air bnb landlords) supplied the relevant paperwork.

[NanLaew]

18 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

You could appeal the denial of entry due to insufficient funds to the courts but no one will do that because it's utterly useless when the person trying to enter was not able to show the necessary cash. The rule might be applied arbitrarily, same like checking for a motorbike license. Doesn't mean that people that get caught can get a free pass.

Where do you appeal at Don Muang or Suvarnabhumi? When they are walking you to a detention room? The room with no wi-fi and no public phone? This is before being escorted by airline and immigration reps straight to your flight departure gate so you don't get to use the free wi-fi in the departure lounge either.

 

Thai Immigration abuse the "lack of funds" rule as it the easiest to enforce REGARDLESS of having proof or otherwise. If they chose not to see it, then it doesn't exist. There's been reports on here where some were shown the door with the lack of funds annotation in their passports despite immigration never even asking them for proof of funds. They can suspect anyone of working but that's hard work to prove whereas they can honestly say they never saw sustaining funds, especially if they never asked to see such in the first place.

 

26 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

If the foreigner is in the right? Yes. I've sued in Thai court. It wasn't a great experience but won. What's your experience with the courts?

Well done. Now what's your experience with the courts air-side at Thailand's international airports?

 

[ukrules]

55 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Is it arbitrary though? Seems like they are punishing for offenses that are indeed illegal.

Are they?

 

Like what? There is no list.

 

Annoying a waiter? Is that on the list?

 

[Salerno]

24 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Where do you appeal at Don Muang or Suvarnabhumi?

You ask for a TM11 (see attached) or you come prepared if you have concerns (and ensure your phone is fully charged and have a Thai SIM or home SIM with roaming activated).

 

27 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

This is before being escorted by airline and immigration reps straight to your flight departure gate so you don't get to use the free wi-fi in the departure lounge either.

Extremely unlikely you will have an available flight there and then, best case scenario you are "locked up" in holding at the airport, worst case, off to IDC.

 

8.อุทธรณ์คำสั่งของพนักงานเจ้าหน้าที่ที่ให้เดินทางออกนอกราชอาณาจักร-ตม.11.pdf

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Where do you appeal at Don Muang or Suvarnabhumi? When they are walking you to a detention room? The room with no wi-fi and no public phone? This is before being escorted by airline and immigration reps straight to your flight departure gate so you don't get to use the free wi-fi in the departure lounge either.

You could use your phone to contact a lawyer. You have no right for a public wifi or phone in Thailand as far as I am aware. Nowhere does it say you should be able to appeal right at the airport. There is however, as Salerno said, the possibility of filing a TM11 at the airport.

 

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Thai Immigration abuse the "lack of funds" rule as it the easiest to enforce REGARDLESS of having proof or otherwise. If they chose not to see it, then it doesn't exist. There's been reports on here where some were shown the door with the lack of funds annotation in their passports despite immigration never even asking them for proof of funds. They can suspect anyone of working but that's hard work to prove whereas they can honestly say they never saw sustaining funds, especially if they never asked to see such in the first place.

Yes I have also read these reports. I am not supporting this behavior. The issue though is that an immigration officer can refuse entry when they suspect for example that the person will work illegaly, they don't need to prove it. There is no absolute right to enter the country as a foreigner, even with a valid visa.

 

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

Well done. Now what's your experience with the courts air-side at Thailand's international airports?

None as there are no courts air-side at airports. I am not aware of any country that has courts there either. One can, however, contact the courts inside the country from outside.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by eisfeld

[eisfeld]

52 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Are they?

 

Like what? There is no list.

 

Annoying a waiter? Is that on the list?

 

I think there is confusion as to what immigration is doing here and I blame the journalists for not communicating it properly and instead trying to foster misunderstanding.

 

Immigration didn't invent new offenses. They categorized existing offenses as stipulated in the law into yellow and red card groups in order to clarify to offenders how serious an offense is in the eyes of immigration.

 

This is actually good. As before you didn't know if some offense was grounds for refusing entry next time someone tries to travel to Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

"Group 3 – special cases
 

• Group 4 – cases in which the state is the victim.
 

Five other foreigners were found to have committed Group 4 offences, which refer to “offences against the state”."

 

I hope someone from Immigration  is going to be coming forward publicly and soon explaining just what kind of conduct qualifies as group 3 and group 4 offenses....

 

Special cases?  Offenses against the state?

 

And 5 foreigners already having fallen afoul of the latter.  ????

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[DJ54]

This yellow/red card puzzles me how can it promote tourism… if I was a tourist I’d be concerned about  being a desired vacation destination… … 

[ukrules]

20 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Special cases?  Offenses against the state?

Annoying an official who works for the government, could be a street cleaner I guess.

 

Sounds like a 'catch all' for someone who is not cooperating (read that as boot licking) any glorious Thai official.

 

Like the tourist who told Anutin he didn't want his stinking mask - red card - out!

Edited March 20, 2023 by ukrules

[CLW]

20 minutes ago, DJ54 said:

This yellow/red card puzzles me how can it promote tourism… if I was a tourist I’d be concerned about  being a desired vacation destination… … 

I hope the international press and travel promoters / SM influencers spread out this wonderful news

[connda]

I have a solution:  Mexico! 

[carabaothai]

A good idea to stop the corruption ????????????

You pay or you go back to your country 

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Salerno said:

You ask for a TM11 (see attached) or you come prepared if you have concerns (and ensure your phone is fully charged and have a Thai SIM or home SIM with roaming activated).

 

Extremely unlikely you will have an available flight there and then, best case scenario you are "locked up" in holding at the airport, worst case, off to IDC.

 

8.อุทธรณ์คำสั่งของพนักงานเจ้าหน้าที่ที่ให้เดินทางออกนอกราชอาณาจักร-ตม.11.pdf 135.52 kB · 2 downloads

Good advice. How much is the application fee the TM11 ?

 

"WHETHER PERMISSION IS GRANTED OR NOT, APPLICATION FEE IS NON REFUNDABLE UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES"

[Salerno]

On 3/20/2023 at 11:30 PM, NanLaew said:

How much is the application fee the TM11 ?

Very good question, unfortunately, I have no idea if there is actually a fee or not or if it's just a standard disclaimer (it's on several immigration forms).

 

Personally, I don't know anyone that has used it just remembered it as it was mentioned on some forum/site I read when they where having that clampdown before covid and refusing a few people. Just done a quick search but can't find the source of the stories. There was one from a guy allegedly posting from within the airport detention who successfully argued for a flight out to a nearby country instead of home country as they initially where telling him it had to be (Cambodia I think he ended up going to?) then coming back in via a land crossing and, from memory of reports around that time, a guy that actually had a TM11 prepared that when he pulled it out they decided to let him in telling him to get a "proper" visa next time - that's about the only time I remember hearing about a TM11 but the forms legit (downloaded from https://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/downloads_en/ when I initially attached it above). 

 

 

 

 

[still kicking]

On 3/20/2023 at 5:18 AM, ukrules said:

It's arbitrary extra judicial summary punishment.

 

This will backfire in a massive way and make Thailand look worse than a third world backwater.

 

If they start giving out these ridiculous 'cards' for not reporting your address when the law clearly states the hotel should do this then it's a much, much worse situation.

 

Why are they blaming foreigners for Thais who break the law?

They can't deport Thais