"I think it is a rigged deal here, we have a rigged country, we have a country that is corrupt."

[Hanaguma]

8 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Do you have a link to verify your point of the Democrats refusing to achknowledge his 2016 win?  I find the statement made is false

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/24/jody-hice/did-democrats-refuse-acknowledge-trumps-2016-victo/

 

In fact, Democrats began acknowledging Trump’s electoral-vote victory in 2016 within hours after it became clear. Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, who won the popular vote, called Trump on election night to congratulate him and offered to work with him. She also urged her supporters to accept the results and "look to the future."

Winning the popular vote is the equivalent of capturing more pawns in a chess game, but losing the game. Interesting but completely irrelevant. 

Hillary was calling Trump an "illegitimate President" until 2019.  John Lewis, the same. 

Tim Kaine said, "What we've got to do is fight in Congress, fight in the courts, fight in the streets, fight online, fight at the ballot box, and now there's the momentum to be able to do this".

Nancy Pelosi said; "Our election was hijacked. There is no question"

 

https://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills211/hlrbillspdf/2047H.01I.pdf

 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

When I soundly went to sleep the evening of NOV 8, 2016 Thai time, the New York Times polling was saying 90% chance of Hillary Clinton winning the Presidency.  A big topic was what would be the proper titles for President H. Clinton and her spouse Bill post-election.

 

When I woke the next morning Thai time, the NY Times was saying 90% chance Donald Trump will win the Presidency.

 

So regardless of the probabilities, could this happen again? Yes.

Using Trump logic that means the 2016 election was stolen.  Of course Trump logic only applies when it benefits Trump.

[heybruce]

25 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Calling him "illegitimate" and refusing to attend his inauguration is hardly criticism. It is petulance at best, and refusal to accept the election result at worst.

Show us the statements where Trump was called illegitimate in full context. 

 

Obama attended Trump's nomination, Trump didn't attend Biden's. 

 

What would you call falsely claiming massive voter fraud, nominating fake electors and pressuring the Vice President to illegally refuse to certify a legitimate election?

[heybruce]

23 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

It IS possible for two things to be true at the same time.

 

It is true that, if the charges against Trump are proven, he should be punished and possibly jailed. Doesn't matter what happened or didn't happen to anyone else.

 

It is also true that other politicians who are accused of similar crimes should also face similar investigations and possible consequences. 

Trump supporters object to the first part.  No one objects to the second.

[Walker88]

42 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

 

Trump may be a con man, but at least he pretends to represent the common man.

 

Yes, he pretends. He regularly calls people who are not wealthy "losers". He called members of the military who fought and either died or were disabled "suckers". There are a thousand suits filed against trump and his organization for failure to pay contractors.

 

So much for the 'common man' and the elitist grifter trump. Heck, he even grifts his low paid cult for dosh by schlepping fantasy NFTs or appealing for funds to cover his defense.

 

That so many of them continue to worship him is proof of their gullibility.

 

As for Karl....Karl never considered the progress of technology. Low skilled jobs outsourced to China or elsewhere aren't coming back ever. Those foreign manufacturing positions are just a way station on the way to oblivion. Besides, we don't need another USSR or Bloc to show us human nature will never accept Marxism, and somebody is always going to grift the system for personal gain. Lots of Chinese communists died very wealthy. Oh, and Orwell pointed out the delusion of a worker's paradise.

 

Increasingly, human input will be obviated by technology. The 'workers' will have no beef, because they won't be adding any value. They are unnecessary.

 

That human labor is losing its pricing power is the most critical societal issue the world faces today. Technology is playing Pacman and chomping up the food chain. Blue collar work was the first to be replaced, but, for example, as AI gets better and better, lots of IT jobs are going to evaporate. Who needs human code writers when AI will do it faster and better?

 

What are the redundant going to do?

 

No politician has an answer for that. I'm not sure if trump understands what's coming, but he certainly knows how to broadcast a siren song to those losing out, which is to say he engages in pure self-interest by  creating fantasies for the forlorn.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Walker88

[bendejo]

said that "we have a country that is in decline like never before."
 

You think this is bad, you have seen it when that orange guy was president!

 

 

[Hanaguma]

9 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Show us the statements where Trump was called illegitimate in full context. 

 

Obama attended Trump's nomination, Trump didn't attend Biden's. 

 

What would you call falsely claiming massive voter fraud, nominating fake electors and pressuring the Vice President to illegally refuse to certify a legitimate election?

Again, two things can both be right. Here is John Lewis saying he cannot work with Trump because he thinks Trump is not a legitimate President;

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/john-lewis-trump-won-t-be-legitimate-president-n706676

 

Hillary Clinton saying Trump stole the election, and calling Trump an "illegitimate President" in 2019 on CNN;

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/09/30/hillary-clinton-calls-trump-illegitimate-president-sot-ip-vpx.cnn

 

I would call Trump's behavior after losing in 2020 also petulant and unnecessary. Unsurprising but unnecessary.  

 

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

4 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

Interesting that the former president does not establish any reasoning or defense for stealing, hiding, sharing and lying about classified documents.

He only has to do that in court.  

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, Walker88 said:

The term for taking something one has no right to possess is: Theft

 

The term for telling authorities everything was returned is: Lying

 

Q.E.D.

"Q.E.D".

Q.E.D.?   Talk about counting you chickens!

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Again, two things can both be right. Here is John Lewis saying he cannot work with Trump because he thinks Trump is not a legitimate President;

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/john-lewis-trump-won-t-be-legitimate-president-n706676

 

Hillary Clinton saying Trump stole the election, and calling Trump an "illegitimate President" in 2019 on CNN;

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/09/30/hillary-clinton-calls-trump-illegitimate-president-sot-ip-vpx.cnn

 

I would call Trump's behavior after losing in 2020 also petulant and unnecessary. Unsurprising but unnecessary. 

Neither John Lewis nor Hillary Clinton denied the election outcome or tried to prevent the certification.  They both had legitimate concerns about Russian interference (yes, it was real as explained in the Mueller report) but did nothing to prevent Trump from taking office.

 

The behavior of Trump and his followers went beyond petulant; they actively and illegally sought to prevent the legal certification of a legitimate election.  There is no comparing that with Democrats who complained about Russian interference.

[Pink Mist]

The OP was locked for trolling and off-topic posts generated by one member.  Continue to troll the OP, and post off-topic posts trying to derail the OP, and then making comments on moderation will be treated with a posting suspension.

 

10. You will not post troll messages. Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing forum members by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other members into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[Hanaguma]

13 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Neither John Lewis nor Hillary Clinton denied the election outcome or tried to prevent the certification.  They both had legitimate concerns about Russian interference (yes, it was real as explained in the Mueller report) but did nothing to prevent Trump from taking office.

 

The behavior of Trump and his followers went beyond petulant; they actively and illegally sought to prevent the legal certification of a legitimate election.  There is no comparing that with Democrats who complained about Russian interference.

Never said there was, and never said he did. But to imply that the Democrats "graciously" (to quote another member) accepted Trump's victory is also false. They were beyond p1ssed off and it showed. The whole Russia collusion hoax just made it worse.  

 

And yes, what happened on January 6 was worse. Never said otherwise. 

[Gecko123]

He's not running for President. He's running from the law.

[ozimoron]

18 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Never said there was, and never said he did. But to imply that the Democrats "graciously" (to quote another member) accepted Trump's victory is also false. They were beyond p1ssed off and it showed. The whole Russia collusion hoax just made it worse.  

 

And yes, what happened on January 6 was worse. Never said otherwise. 

I don't think we've heard the last of the "Russia hoax".

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, pegman said:

True, Trump was a con man before becoming president. Problem was he brought those same traits to the Oval Office. 

Only to be outdone by the Democrat Party.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Well here is a partial answer from 2020 presidential election. Kansas metro area counties blue for Biden -- Counties red for Trump. Trump won roughly 56% to Biden's 41%.

 

 

Nice try, but still no cigar.

 

That is most probably correct, as far as your biased picture shows.

 

It is however only one state among 50 that make up the USA.

 

Why did you not show the picture of the whole of the 50 states of the USA and accompany that with the full facts and figures that prove beyond doubt that Trump lost the electoral college vote AND the popular vote?

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Only to be outdone by the Democrat Party.

Which Democrat had to pay 25 million to the victims of a fake university? Which Democrat is accused of large scale money laundering through property sales to Russian oligarchs? Which left wing supreme court justices are credibly accused of corruption? Which Democrats have received massive donations from Russian criminals?

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/14/russian-oligarch-andrey-muraviev-indicted-linked-to-trump-donors.html

[candide]

2 hours ago, Walker88 said:

His cult will be the same whether trump lives or dies, is jailed or allowed to remain free. Worshiping such a flawed person won't correct for their personal shortcomings and lack of success in life. He can't deliver what nature and an impish Universe did not hand out to them. They seem to carry a sense of entitlement that they deserve more than their mediocre skills and (lack of) talent can bring them in a free and competitive capitalist society. trump gave them 'others' to blame for their own failures, and they are slow to give that up. Blacks, immigrants, women, Moslems, the 'woke', 'the radical left'....trump dished out all the excuses a loser might need to feel victimized. Taking an honest look at themselves and accepting fault for failure doesn't seem to be something they are capable of doing. trump was their last hope to salvage what has been a meaningless existence. In the end, however, Darwin wins.

That's the point. Trump understood that he could convince some people, who don't have much power and influence in their lives, to follow him, if he gives them dome power.

Of course, he could not give them the real power. The swamp behind him (the Koch etc..) would not have let him do it (and it was not his intent, as he is only a conman). So he gave them only some limited negative power on other people they don't like (I.e. restrict freedom, culture, etc...). And they have gone addicted to it.

Edited June 14, 2023 by candide

[jerrymahoney]

35 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Nice try, but still no cigar.

 

That is most probably correct, as far as your biased picture shows.

 

It is however only one state among 50 that make up the USA.

 

Why did you not show the picture of the whole of the 50 states of the USA and w beyoand doubt that Trump lost the electoral college vote AND the popular vote?

I was responding to a query of "How could America stoop so low as to give this obnoxious buffoon any credibility???"

 

And the Kansas map was just one example as to where such persons who give Trump credibility were located in 2020.

Edited June 14, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, 2baht said:

Don't forget Nixon!

Slime ball that he was, at least he set himself up to get pardoned.  Stupid he wasn't.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Winning the popular vote is the equivalent of capturing more pawns in a chess game, but losing the game. Interesting but completely irrelevant. 

Hillary was calling Trump an "illegitimate President" until 2019.  John Lewis, the same. 

Tim Kaine said, "What we've got to do is fight in Congress, fight in the courts, fight in the streets, fight online, fight at the ballot box, and now there's the momentum to be able to do this".

Nancy Pelosi said; "Our election was hijacked. There is no question"

 

https://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills211/hlrbillspdf/2047H.01I.pdf

 

In most sensible countries, the popular vote and preferencing from other candidates decides who gets elected, and who is the leader. A cockeyed system like the Electoral College could only exist in America.

 

It reminds me of the Churchill quote: " Americans usually get it right, after they have tried everything else".

 

IMO Trump was illegitimate because he was lazy, surrounded himself with yes-men, and sucked up to tyrants to massage his ego. See any John Bolton interview

( former National Security Adviser ) for an inside view of Trump's complete lack of leadership. He did not even bother to read daily briefings.

 

AFAIK no Democrats rioted at the Capitol.

[candide]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

Using Trump logic that means the 2016 election was stolen.  Of course Trump logic only applies when it benefits Trump.

Actually Trump initially thought he would lose the 2016 elections, so he started to claim they were rigged.

Edit: He even claimed elections have been rigged after winning, as he was enraged that Hillary won the popular vote! ????

Edited June 14, 2023 by candide

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, riclag said:

The problem the left had initially was and is ,they mostly never accepted him as the 45 th POTUS.

(Not deserving any rights and freedoms of the office) imop

This in 2016 was furthered by the Washington establishments  , (politicians,fbi and some in the media) by attempting to delegitimize Trump and everyone in his sphere) imop

Unfortunately for the American people like myself , we gotten delegitimized and defeated out of our vote for a Trump America policy by the establishment ever since!imop

Be nice to see a election by the citizens  of my country without any 

interference by the Washington establishment ! Imop

“The Establishment has been best understood as the primary source of power in a society, the implicit organization to which all politically minded people long to join but few will confess to being a member”

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/what-is-the-establishment-now-213565/

I’m lost for words

That’s just too bizarre.

[h90]

9 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I agree. It is just too hard a sale for conservatives to accept a non-President can smash classified records on a hard drive with a HAMMER to destroy and it's totally fine, a non-President can store classified docs in what is essentially a crackhouse rented by national security nightmare Hunter Biden and again, it's fine. But don't let them catch a real President having some in a heavily guarded estate.

Sorry, not buying it. Looks like a 2 tier justice system.

I agree...Trump should go to jail, but all the others from Bill Clinton onwards should be long in jail as well and some for way worse things like war crimes. The discussion should not if Trump should be in jail or not. It should be why the others aren't locked in. Made up weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, waging war without declaration of war and boasting about that it was worth 500.000 dead children....and these people are not in jail or executed and everyone talks about some paperwork at home?

[candide]

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Again, two things can both be right. Here is John Lewis saying he cannot work with Trump because he thinks Trump is not a legitimate President;

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/john-lewis-trump-won-t-be-legitimate-president-n706676

 

Hillary Clinton saying Trump stole the election, and calling Trump an "illegitimate President" in 2019 on CNN;

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/09/30/hillary-clinton-calls-trump-illegitimate-president-sot-ip-vpx.cnn

 

I would call Trump's behavior after losing in 2020 also petulant and unnecessary. Unsurprising but unnecessary.  

 

 

 

Petulant and unnecessary! That's all? Nothing about the big lie?

[h90]

28 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

In most sensible countries, the popular vote and preferencing from other candidates decides who gets elected, and who is the leader. A cockeyed system like the Electoral College could only exist in America.

 

It reminds me of the Churchill quote: " Americans usually get it right, after they have tried everything else".

 

IMO Trump was illegitimate because he was lazy, surrounded himself with yes-men, and sucked up to tyrants to massage his ego. See any John Bolton interview

( former National Security Adviser ) for an inside view of Trump's complete lack of leadership. He did not even bother to read daily briefings.

 

AFAIK no Democrats rioted at the Capitol.

Look at the elections for European parliament and than the president of it.....that is even worse.

a popular vote in an union of states of different sizes has also problems. The smaller one would leave it as they feel they have no say.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, h90 said:

I agree...Trump should go to jail, but all the others from Bill Clinton onwards should be long in jail as well and some for way worse things like war crimes. The discussion should not if Trump should be in jail or not. It should be why the others aren't locked in. Made up weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, waging war without declaration of war and boasting about that it was worth 500.000 dead children....and these people are not in jail or executed and everyone talks about some paperwork at home?

All previous Presidents were ‘protected’ by being considered above the law, un-indictable.

 

That’s no longer the case, and it’s a good thing that it’s no longer the case.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

Overnight and as if by magic,  ‘Trump Derangement Syndrome’ morphs into ‘Trump Arraignment Syndrome’.

 

And there’s yet more to come.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Never said there was, and never said he did. But to imply that the Democrats "graciously" (to quote another member) accepted Trump's victory is also false. They were beyond p1ssed off and it showed. The whole Russia collusion hoax just made it worse.  

 

And yes, what happened on January 6 was worse. Never said otherwise. 

I don't know of anyone who was gracious about the Trump victory; Trump and his fans certainly weren't. 

 

However there is no equivalence between the objections to Trump's 2016 election and Trump's calling both the 2016 and 2020 elections fraudulent and fixed (starting before the vote took place both times), and attempting to overturn the 2020 election results using illegal means.

[candide]

13 minutes ago, h90 said:

I agree...Trump should go to jail, but all the others from Bill Clinton onwards should be long in jail as well and some for way worse things like war crimes. The discussion should not if Trump should be in jail or not. It should be why the others aren't locked in. Made up weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, waging war without declaration of war and boasting about that it was worth 500.000 dead children....and these people are not in jail or executed and everyone talks about some paperwork at home?

I don't disagree that others should also have been investigated, in particular about the WMD lie.

 

About your last point, Trump would have disagreed with you in 2018, as he felt necessary to strengthen the law about it.

https://www.businessinsider.com/law-trump-signed-2018-may-punish-him-classified-info-2022-8?r=US&IR=T