Trump charged with four counts over 2020 election

[xylophone]

19 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Smith lets indictments speak for him
Updated August 3, 2023 at 4:43 p.m. EDT

Legal experts said that much of the election conspiracy case is likely to center on a question of intent — essentially, whether Trump believed his false claims while pushing to have the election results overturned.

 

And that, they said, could pose a challenge for Smith and his team.

 

“It’s certainly not an easy case, it’s not a slam-dunk case,” (Lauren Ouziel, a former federal prosecutor in Manhattan and Philadelphia who is now a law professor at Temple University)
said, “because it really comes down to mental state, to intent.”

 

“It’s not a crime to spread lies; that is not a federal crime,” she said. “The crime is spreading the lies with the intent to prevent the lawful functioning of the electoral certification process. The crime is the unlawful intention.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/03/jack-smith-special-counsel-trump/

https://archive.is/LAVZf

Many points to ponder in that post as I have noted, but then again lawyers will do what they will, but many a case has faltered on their "misguided" beliefs........after all the trump lawyers fought 60 cases on their misguided beliefs and look where that got them!

[jerrymahoney]

13 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Many points to ponder in that post as I have noted, but then again lawyers will do what they will, but many a case has faltered on their "misguided" beliefs........after all the trump lawyers fought 60 cases on their misguided beliefs and look where that got them!

I am not saying Trump will get off or should get off for any of the current or possible criminal cases. Just that these cases are complex, have detailed Federal jury instructions, and Supreme Court precedent rulings that may affect what would seem to be an otherwise 'obvious' outcome.

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Tug said:

More encouraging stuff did anyone notice how tepid the support was during old Donnie’s most recent arrest?Ill bet Donnie did!as far as Donnie scampering (wallowing) off to Putin’s warm embrace I don’t think that would last long.any info he would /could give would be tainted by his mental illness most likely of little use now if he has thumb drives of real info that’s a problem.my guess is Putin would arrange an accident as soon as he’s given up what he has,and most likely bill us to get the carcass back for burial 

Sure, but recent reports indicate that Putin needs to be very careful of accidents. 

[Liverpool Lou]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:16 AM, Berkshire said:

If we can get every Republican voter to read the indictment, then we would have an informed electorate.

You don't seem to realise that an indictment is not a statement of facts, it's just an accusation!

[Liverpool Lou]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:13 AM, earlinclaifornia said:

I read the document and in my lifetime I never have read something so shocking and so well laid out factually.

You need to get out a bit more, then.   How could you know what areas of the indictment will be confirmed to be "facts"?

[ThailandRyan]

47 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

I have to disagree on this.

 

If you rob a bank, it doesn't matter if you truly believe the money is really yours. 

 

However, state of mind enters the picture when considering an insanity defense.

A defense that DT will never go with is an insanity defense.  He will go down believing the lies he has spoken are truths and that he is being singled out because he was the greatest President the US ever had.....and he believes it.

[pomchop]

39 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Fine. How many federal cases have you prosecuted?

 

Ms. Ouziel said this is not a slam-dunk case. You sure wouldn't get that notion from reading the posts on here.

 

 

That is why we have courts and trials and rules of law....rather than a bunch of screaming lunatics yelling lock her/him at at political rallies because they read some stupid conspiracy theory online or listened to some talking head tell lie after lie designed to increase their audience or online clicks.

 

Present the  evidence in a court of law, corraborated by republican after republican that saw and heard action after action and further corraborated by documents, texts, emails, audio tapes, video tapes, etc...

 

Then let the jury decide if the case has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt (not a shawdow of doubt which many undeducated seem to think is the standard). 

 

Let the system proceed without death threats against witnesses, judges, lawyers, jurors designed to intimidate/delay/ and corrupt the legal system.   Then accept the verdict without storming the courtrooms or resorting to violence.

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You need to get out a bit more, then.   How could you know what areas of the indictment will be confirmed to be "facts"?

If they were not facts in evidence Sir then the grand jury would never have heard them.  The facts in evidence are well supported and up to the defense to try and punch holes in and ergo as you say are accusations which are supported and not unsupported.  Please know the difference between the two

 

 

[Berkshire]

23 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You don't seem to realise that an indictment is not a statement of facts, it's just an accusation!

Lordy.  The DOJ is not going to make accusations without facts/evidence to back them up.  Especially not against an ex-Prez.  You need to read the indictment.

[watthong]

15 minutes ago, pomchop said:

Let the system proceed without death threats against witnesses, judges, lawyers, jurors designed to intimidate/delay/ and corrupt the legal system.   Then accept the verdict without storming the courtrooms or resorting to violence.

No way Jose - that's anathema to the MAGA crowd raison d'etre! 

(Apology for the choice of foreign words.)

[watthong]

2 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Lordy.  The DOJ is not going to make accusations without facts/evidence to back them up.  Especially not against an ex-Prez.  You need to read the indictment.

You just don't understand - 

The MAGA dna dictates that when it's fact you have to say it's accusation. And vice versa. Same with "Stop the steal" meaning you have to go stop AND steal.  It's "the thief sounding the alarm," strategically speaking. Easy hint: when they accuse you of attacking them, that's the code phrase saying they admit it. And so on.

 

[riclag]

You may have heard the expression that prosecutors can “indict a ham sandwich.”
This reflects the facts that: (1) grand jury proceedings are secret and closed to the public. The defense has no opportunity to present evidence at a grand jury proceeding, challenge the prosecution’s evidence, or present its side of the story. 
https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/criminal-defense-resources/federal-criminal-process/federal-indictments-faqs

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

imop

Now onto a hostile DC court system , where  95% of the voters, vote for dems and where the electorate has been told previously by his political  opponent that Trump is like Gobbels a Nazi propagandist !

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047

 

 

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, riclag said:

You may have heard the expression that prosecutors can “indict a ham sandwich.”
This reflects the facts that: (1) grand jury proceedings are secret and closed to the public. The defense has no opportunity to present evidence at a grand jury proceeding, challenge the prosecution’s evidence, or present its side of the story. 
https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/criminal-defense-resources/federal-criminal-process/federal-indictments-faqs

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

imop

Now onto a hostile DC court system , where  95% of the voters, vote for dems and where the electorate has been told previously by his political  opponent that Trump is like Gobbels a Nazi propagandist !

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047

 

 

Please stop insulting ham sandwiches.

[xylophone]

On 8/3/2023 at 5:12 PM, Walker88 said:

Obviously you have nothing of value to add, and certainly no defense of your messiah.

 

Another thing that is puzzling...do trumpers know that trump himself considers all of his cult losers? trump worships successful people, celebrities, and most of all wealthy people. His cult is almost solely poorly educated, unsuccessful, below average income, below average intelligence, losers. They're the forlorn, the forgotten, the mediocre, the meaningless. They try to live vicariously through him, even collecting his NFTs that pretend he's brave and physically sculpted, when he's an abject coward and has the body composition of Jabba the Hut. He's gathered the Incels, the Neo Nazis, the racists, the white supremacists, and all those who are incapable of accepting responsibility for their own life failures. Drawing from the autocrats handbook, trump gave them an excuse. He gave them "others" to blame. He lies and tells them they are something they are not and never can be, and they buy his absurdist pabulum because they need it. To see themselves clearly for the losers they are is too much for them to take. If trump goes away, they have nothing left in life. He was their only hope, even if it was a false one, concocted merely to exploit their weakness and get their support.

Found it........have been looking for that post, so, sorry that it seems to be out of "sync" with what is currently being discussed. BUT IMO it really does point to why trump has the support that he does and the description of a typical trump supporter fits to a "T".

 

Also interesting to note that some folk in the GOP are also of low IQ...........; "Jewish space lasers" and "Krakens" immediately spring to mind; and as for the rubes "dancincg" at a trump rally. Well that says it all. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by xylophone

[Neeranam]

29 minutes ago, riclag said:

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

There are other people who were jailed by their political opponents. 

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Neeranam

[Neeranam]

31 minutes ago, riclag said:

You may have heard the expression that prosecutors can “indict a ham sandwich.”
This reflects the facts that: (1) grand jury proceedings are secret and closed to the public. The defense has no opportunity to present evidence at a grand jury proceeding, challenge the prosecution’s evidence, or present its side of the story. 
https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/criminal-defense-resources/federal-criminal-process/federal-indictments-faqs

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

imop

Now onto a hostile DC court system , where  95% of the voters, vote for dems and where the electorate has been told previously by his political  opponent that Trump is like Gobbels a Nazi propagandist !

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047

 

 

Good post. 

[gargamon]

Following the former president’s third indictment, The Onion asked Republicans to explain why Donald Trump is innocent, and this is what they said.

 

 

https://www.theonion.com/republicans-explain-why-trump-is-innocent-1850705405

Yes, theonion. Strange how their humor hits so close to home sometimes. 

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

You don't seem to realise that an indictment is not a statement of facts, it's just an accusation!

Speaking of accusations, can you recall an instance when Trump has lied?

[xylophone]

20 minutes ago, gargamon said:

Following the former president’s third indictment, The Onion asked Republicans to explain why Donald Trump is innocent, and this is what they said.

 

 

https://www.theonion.com/republicans-explain-why-trump-is-innocent-1850705405

Yes, theonion. Strange how their humor hits so close to home sometimes. 

Humour??? Am I missing something? These bogans obviously believe the nonsense they are spouting! Sad.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

There are other people who were jailed by their political opponents. 

 

And millions more jailed for crimes they actually committed.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

You may have heard the expression that prosecutors can “indict a ham sandwich.”
This reflects the facts that: (1) grand jury proceedings are secret and closed to the public. The defense has no opportunity to present evidence at a grand jury proceeding, challenge the prosecution’s evidence, or present its side of the story. 
https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/criminal-defense-resources/federal-criminal-process/federal-indictments-faqs

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

imop

Now onto a hostile DC court system , where  95% of the voters, vote for dems and where the electorate has been told previously by his political  opponent that Trump is like Gobbels a Nazi propagandist !

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047

 

 

Trump supporters are bang on the trajectory of denial I predicted from the beginning.

 

Trump supporters don’t accept the allegations agains their ‘leader’, they don’t accept the investigation, they don’t accept the indictments, they won’t accept the trial, they wont accept any evidence or testimony against Trump, they will not accept any guilty verdict, they will not accept any sentencing.

 

Trump, to use his own words “I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters,”

 

I’m sure he’ll loose voters, but I doubt very much he’ll lose any ‘deplorables’.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

You may have heard the expression that prosecutors can “indict a ham sandwich.”
This reflects the facts that: (1) grand jury proceedings are secret and closed to the public. The defense has no opportunity to present evidence at a grand jury proceeding, challenge the prosecution’s evidence, or present its side of the story. 
https://www.burnhamgorokhov.com/criminal-defense-resources/federal-criminal-process/federal-indictments-faqs

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

imop

Now onto a hostile DC court system , where  95% of the voters, vote for dems and where the electorate has been told previously by his political  opponent that Trump is like Gobbels a Nazi propagandist !

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047

 

 

Yet the Grand Jury is a constitutional requirement for this type of crime. You abide by the constitution right?

 

Your claim that its all political is pure nonsense. Jack Smith has prosecuted both Republicans and Democrats before and “He knows how to do high-profile cases. He’s independent. He will not be influenced by anybody,” said Greg Andres, a former member of Mueller’s team.

 

Your final spit the dummy point regarding the trial being held in Washington. Didn't see you complain with Trumps documents case in Florida by Judge Aileen Cannon

Edited August 6, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Bkk Brian]

Sorry Donnie, no more delays with this Judge. You have to respond by Monday.

 

Judge denies Trump legal team’s motion to extend deadline over protective order dispute in election subversion case

 

A federal judge on Saturday denied a request from former President Donald Trump’s legal team for a deadline extension over the handling of evidence in the 2020 election subversion case.

The decision from US District Judge Tanya Chutkan caps a flurry of activity in the case after special counsel Jack Smith’s team on Friday asked Chutkan to quickly set limits on what Trump’s team can do with the evidence that will be shared with them. Their request pointed to a post by Trump on Truth Social from earlier in the day to argue that the former president has a habit of speaking publicly about the details of the various legal proceedings he’s facing.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/trump-truth-social-smith-evidence-2020/index.html

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23898465/protectiveorder.pdf

Thank you for the link:

 

18 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

From the 04AUG23 GOVERNMENT’S MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER as referenced above: 

<snip>

All the proposed order seeks to prevent is the improper dissemination or use of discovery materials, including to the public

Actually the proposed order goes significantly further:

 

Trump has until Monday evening to respond and has been denied motion for more time (to delay).

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

At this point its all political! Accusations by a democrat prosecutor ,hired by a democrat attorney general Garland .

Jack Smith is not a Democrat (he's a registered Independent) and in any event he is not ultimately the source of the accusations in the indictment. Those come from the largely Republican witnesses who testified before the grand jury, notably Trump's own VP Mike Pence.

 

If you look at the list of witnesses in the article below (and on whose testimony the indictment is based) you can see that the vast majority of them are Republicans.

 

Dozens of witnesses have testified as the Jan. 6-focused grand jury probes Trump

 

[candide]

7 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

You do realize the Trump Russia collusion you are TWICE referring to in this post has been debunked long ago? You knw it was, I guess some narratives are just too beneficial to dump even when we know they are disinformation. Why does the forum left keep attacking Trump over the hoaxes their side concocted to smear him(this week we had someone attacking him for the false claim he cleared a street for a photo op too and many others)? 

 

"The Russia-Trump collusion narrative of 2016 and beyond was a dirty trick for the ages, and now we know it came from the top—candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton. That was the testimony Friday by 2016 Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook in federal court, and while this news is hardly a surprise, it’s still bracing to find her fingerprints on the political weapon."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-did-it-robby-mook-michael-sussmann-donald-trump-russia-collusion-alfa-bank-11653084709

 

while this news is hardly a surprise!!!! Was it a surprise for you, Tug?

 

As testified during this trial, the FBI did not use the Alfa Bank information, because they thought it was unreliable. They also stated that the investigation into collusion started before the Alfa Bank file was given to them.

Already objected to you before, but don't let facts get in the way of a good MAGA fake story.

[traveller101]

After going through 25 pages of comments about Trumps character traits in light of various indictments and his suitability to once again reside in the White House .... all those who regard the honourable Mr. Trump as 

an upstanding citizen, a honest man, an excellent or even the best economic Manager ever, only concerned with the wellbeing of fellow citizens, upholding America's democratic principles and the Constituition at all times -

please vote in the Affirmative.

All others, which can only be described as extreme left looneys, Marxists, Socialists, please Abstain from voting.

Note:

Mr. Trump unfairly lost the last election because a mere additional 11'779 votes could not be found in Georgia among other irregularities, and presently being relentlessly pursued by the FBI and DOJ - agencies weaponized by the real criminal (Biden).

Thank you

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

I have to disagree on this.

 

If you rob a bank, it doesn't matter if you truly believe the money is really yours. 

 

However, state of mind enters the picture when considering an insanity defense.

I think some crimes don't require the mens rea element, like drug possession, speeding, murder, bank robbery, etc. Incitement probably does require the defendant to understand that he was committing a crime. In Trump's case that might be tricky to prove given his known state of mental development.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, traveller101 said:

After going through 25 pages of comments about Trumps character traits in light of various indictments and his suitability to once again reside in the White House .... all those who regard the honourable Mr. Trump as 

an upstanding citizen, a honest man, an excellent or even the best economic Manager ever, only concerned with the wellbeing of fellow citizens, upholding America's democratic principles and the Constituition at all times -

please vote in the Affirmative.

All others, which can only be described as extreme left looneys, Marxists, Socialists, please Abstain from voting.

Note:

Mr. Trump unfairly lost the last election because a mere additional 11'779 votes could not be found in Georgia among other irregularities, and presently being relentlessly pursued by the FBI and DOJ - agencies weaponized by the real criminal (Biden).

Thank you

Where was this mere additional 11,779 votes going to come from? Do you think they must have gotten lost somehow because Trump didn't get the most votes?

[gargamon]

Buckle your seatbelt. Racketeering charge's probably coming this week in Georgia.

 

Trump is clearly not the Teflon Don everyone was alluding to. More like a Velcro Don.