Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, jerrymahoney said:

Halloween is coming up -- is this your practice?

Good Luck.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

Thanks for that.

You're welcome. 

I do have allowances for kids at school/uni., old parents in law, charities, etc. 

[Neeranam]

24 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Be careful mate.  That will bring you to their attention.  

When I asked my wife why other Thai wives/GFs were not complkainig, she said because that will mean that they get 'noticed' and it is always better to not get noticed by any Thai Govt person or office.

Indeed, not wise to show yourself volantarily. 

I might look into changing my name????

[quake]

15 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That tactic could work in a rational rule-based country, but it will not work here.  And this is something that everyone needs to hear about - Thailand is NOT a rules-based society.  Saying 'but that is the rule' means nothing to any Thai who has been told the rule is applied 'this way'.  So if that tactic is found out about, the Thai Officer will (and can) decide that the Expat was deliberately avoiding taxes and hit them with a bill and fine. Good Luck getting his/her Superviser to reverse that decision. Good Luck appealing against that decision.  In fact Good Luck challenging anything any Thai RD Officer decides is the rule. Not only will an Expat not win, it will cost them money to find out that they cant win. That is the legal reality of Thailand for Expats - you have very little if any legal rights.  Now if an Expat has the ability to get a wife/friend to sit down with that Thai person and talk it out and through and do what is needed 'the Thai way' then that Expat might have success.  But if an Expat quotes the rules at an official Thai person and think that the rule matters - they are very wrong.

Put a sock in it. 

 

[Jenkins9039]

I actually phoned the revenue office (bangkok).

 

Money earned overseas, and or as a business owner overseas regardless of tax overseas or not, is tax free unless remitted and then taxed, this includes companies which say are overseas in tax havens, and say don't have substance in the overseas location (otherwise hire someone on Fiverr on a permanent contract and use their home as the office). 

 

Money from property (rent / sale) overseas will be treated as Income when remitted (this will <deleted> a few people).

 

Money in the form of 'not in the bank account' - say cash or even stablecoins (thankfully public) whereby savings and remitted, is tax free *IF* it was earned before and/or tax was collected, having said that any funds earned in 2023 and remitted will be taxed as Income, evidence to support it is savings is a must, for pre-2023.

 

Money extracted from stock market activities, principle is tax free, ROI is treated as Income if remitted to Thailand.

 

Elite Visa holders 'reportedly' spend around 30,000$ a year (such a low number and I am one of them so not sure where they are getting that from) anyway they will be taxed as Income like everyone else.

 

Pensioners are in for a whammy though... State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that, your private pensions on the other hand will be treated as Income and taxed, note some countries charge tax anyway, the terms of some of the treaties outline that Thailand will provide a credit for the tax paid, what you need to recognise is that is specifically on the $ (equivalent) amount 'earned' and 'remitted' meaning in some countries (say the UK) there is something like a tax exemption of 13/14,000 GBP, whereas in Thailand there is a tax exemption of 150,000 THB + (60,000 THB - needs verification), so from the 150,000 THB onwards you'd be taxed at the standard Thai rates.

 

Note the Government is pushing through higher income for Thais, with luck they also increase the Tax levels upwards... also note 96%+ of Thais don't pay tax (and earn enough just they do not declare it or feel they should not be productive members of society) - the Government has commenced populistic politics which is what specifically has led to the downfall of our own countries (deficit spending and populistic appeal) - in this latest move we are the ones, alongside the productive members of Thai society paying for the populistic policies such as a free 10,000 THB bribe etc.

 

This appears to be the start of the road our own Governments went down, and will need to be factored in before individual property appraisals and tax there etc.

 

Likewise I am somewhat surprised no one has complained that for example, in the time i've been in Thailand, i've seen not one but two exit taxes created, and not one but three entry taxes created under the promise of this or that and then folded into the flight ticket.

 

Somewhere the Thai Government has some major economic hurdles that haven't revealed themselves as of yet, and they are appearing to consolidate into causing more long-term hardship (like our own debasing currencies) by compounding what ever the issue is with populistic vote buying. 

[Celsius]

4 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I actually phoned the revenue office (bangkok).

 

Money earned overseas, and or as a business owner overseas regardless of tax overseas or not, is tax free unless remitted and then taxed, this includes companies which say are overseas in tax havens, and say don't have substance in the overseas location (otherwise hire someone on Fiverr on a permanent contract and use their home as the office). 

 

Money from property (rent / sale) overseas will be treated as Income when remitted (this will <deleted> a few people).

 

Money in the form of 'not in the bank account' - say cash or even stablecoins (thankfully public) whereby savings and remitted, is tax free *IF* it was earned before and/or tax was collected, having said that any funds earned in 2023 and remitted will be taxed as Income, evidence to support it is savings is a must, for pre-2023.

 

Money extracted from stock market activities, principle is tax free, ROI is treated as Income if remitted to Thailand.

 

Elite Visa holders 'reportedly' spend around 30,000$ a year (such a low number and I am one of them so not sure where they are getting that from) anyway they will be taxed as Income like everyone else.

 

Pensioners are in for a whammy though... State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that, your private pensions on the other hand will be treated as Income and taxed, note some countries charge tax anyway, the terms of some of the treaties outline that Thailand will provide a credit for the tax paid, what you need to recognise is that is specifically on the $ (equivalent) amount 'earned' and 'remitted' meaning in some countries (say the UK) there is something like a tax exemption of 13/14,000 GBP, whereas in Thailand there is a tax exemption of 150,000 THB + (60,000 THB - needs verification), so from the 150,000 THB onwards you'd be taxed at the standard Thai rates.

 

Note the Government is pushing through higher income for Thais, with luck they also increase the Tax levels upwards... also note 96%+ of Thais don't pay tax (and earn enough just they do not declare it or feel they should not be productive members of society) - the Government has commenced populistic politics which is what specifically has led to the downfall of our own countries (deficit spending and populistic appeal) - in this latest move we are the ones, alongside the productive members of Thai society paying for the populistic policies such as a free 10,000 THB bribe etc.

 

This appears to be the start of the road our own Governments went down, and will need to be factored in before individual property appraisals and tax there etc.

 

Likewise I am somewhat surprised no one has complained that for example, in the time i've been in Thailand, i've seen not one but two exit taxes created, and not one but three entry taxes created under the promise of this or that and then folded into the flight ticket.

 

Somewhere the Thai Government has some major economic hurdles that haven't revealed themselves as of yet, and they are appearing to consolidate into causing more long-term hardship (like our own debasing currencies) by compounding what ever the issue is with populistic vote buying. 

That is some info. 

 

Thanks for that.

[Jenkins9039]

In addition, various "potential" ways to overcome (specific to some people).

• Own company overseas which pays a dividend/salary (recommend Dividend).
  • Company does a loan for amount owed annually (lump sum)
    • Lawyers countersign/translate.
      • Remitted funds are NOT income but a Loan covered by overseas debt which is serviced by your next Annual Dividends. 
• Own a overseas Credit Card
  • Credit Cards are 'Credit Lines' covered under Debt, you are not remitting funds, and your annual overseas Dividends/Other will service that Debt.

 

These are two areas I expect to play out in the Thai courts, and expect to be challenged, but Credit in no country is Remittance, however Thailand will likely claim otherwise especially if the person doesn't routinely leave Thailand during the periods.

 

Note Thailand doesn't charge tax for Bullion/Gold (may change) - Selling Gold overseas would be contestable within Thailand as it's tax free in Thailand. 

 

Other manners to get funds is a quick flight to KL and fly back in with the max (9.5k?) which carries some risk, but ultimately is legal.

18 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I actually phoned the revenue office (bangkok).

 

Money earned overseas, and or as a business owner overseas regardless of tax overseas or not, is tax free unless remitted and then taxed, this includes companies which say are overseas in tax havens, and say don't have substance in the overseas location (otherwise hire someone on Fiverr on a permanent contract and use their home as the office). 

 

Money from property (rent / sale) overseas will be treated as Income when remitted (this will <deleted> a few people).

 

Money in the form of 'not in the bank account' - say cash or even stablecoins (thankfully public) whereby savings and remitted, is tax free *IF* it was earned before and/or tax was collected, having said that any funds earned in 2023 and remitted will be taxed as Income, evidence to support it is savings is a must, for pre-2023.

 

Money extracted from stock market activities, principle is tax free, ROI is treated as Income if remitted to Thailand.

 

Elite Visa holders 'reportedly' spend around 30,000$ a year (such a low number and I am one of them so not sure where they are getting that from) anyway they will be taxed as Income like everyone else.

 

Pensioners are in for a whammy though... State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that, your private pensions on the other hand will be treated as Income and taxed, note some countries charge tax anyway, the terms of some of the treaties outline that Thailand will provide a credit for the tax paid, what you need to recognise is that is specifically on the $ (equivalent) amount 'earned' and 'remitted' meaning in some countries (say the UK) there is something like a tax exemption of 13/14,000 GBP, whereas in Thailand there is a tax exemption of 150,000 THB + (60,000 THB - needs verification), so from the 150,000 THB onwards you'd be taxed at the standard Thai rates.

 

Note the Government is pushing through higher income for Thais, with luck they also increase the Tax levels upwards... also note 96%+ of Thais don't pay tax (and earn enough just they do not declare it or feel they should not be productive members of society) - the Government has commenced populistic politics which is what specifically has led to the downfall of our own countries (deficit spending and populistic appeal) - in this latest move we are the ones, alongside the productive members of Thai society paying for the populistic policies such as a free 10,000 THB bribe etc.

 

This appears to be the start of the road our own Governments went down, and will need to be factored in before individual property appraisals and tax there etc.

 

Likewise I am somewhat surprised no one has complained that for example, in the time i've been in Thailand, i've seen not one but two exit taxes created, and not one but three entry taxes created under the promise of this or that and then folded into the flight ticket.

 

Somewhere the Thai Government has some major economic hurdles that haven't revealed themselves as of yet, and they are appearing to consolidate into causing more long-term hardship (like our own debasing currencies) by compounding what ever the issue is with populistic vote buying. 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Jenkins9039

[Aldo123]

Not sure if this was ever fully addressed, but two questions:

 

1. Does the new interpretation order mean Thailand intends to tax all residents (over 180 days) on their entire "Global Income"? Or does it mean they only plan to tax foreign remittances/income brought into Thailand each year from one's global income that same year?

 

2. Are foreign pension incomes under the Long Term Resident visa for "Wealthy Pensioners" (5+5 years) considered exempt from all income taxation, or does that rule refer only to 'earned income' that is non-taxable? (in other words, could they still tax the pension income (passive income), but not 'earned income' from foreign sources?). Yes, I've read the BOI Website on this, but it's not clear either. 

[SHA 2 BKK]

12 minutes ago, Aldo123 said:

Not sure if this was ever fully addressed, but two questions:

 

1. Does the new interpretation order mean Thailand intends to tax all residents (over 180 days) on their entire "Global Income"? Or does it mean they only plan to tax foreign remittances/income brought into Thailand each year from one's global income that same year?

 

2. Are foreign pension incomes under the Long Term Resident visa for "Wealthy Pensioners" (5+5 years) considered exempt from all income taxation, or does that rule refer only to 'earned income' that is non-taxable? (in other words, could they still tax the pension income (passive income), but not 'earned income' from foreign sources?). Yes, I've read the BOI Website on this, but it's not clear either. 

Hi matey 

 

1.  Only money brought into Thailand not Global Income (not sure but I think only the Yanks do that) and that’s for Tax Paying Residents (over 180 days)

 

2.   I’ve got one of the LTR Pensioner Visas.   I asked about these changes.  Posted this earlier but this was the response from the BOI LTR Team.  They are pretty adamant there won’t be any change for this type of Visa.  Though they don’t mention Pensions in particular which as you point out could be seen as passive income.  Personally I get mine paid in Australia and bring it in only when needed - in the following tax year.  It’s taxed in Australia and I would consider it savings after that.  
 

“Thank you for your inquiry. On the note of the recent Revenue Department announcement on the new conditions for oversea income that generate from business/ asset or work abroad to be subject for personal income tax. 

 

We would like to address that for the LTR tax benefits: the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets. Therefore the change in conditions will not effect the exemption of the LTR mentioned group. 

 

Therefore, we can assure you that the incentive of the LTR visa is still the same. We also believe the revenue department will shortly give an official clarification also as it is their main responsibility and we will work with them to get the procedure for future assistance i.e. to address when you wire in the money that it is from the work remotely (same as in LTR application)- the revenue can cross check with us if they want, don't worry. 

 

If you have any further inquiry or find any obstacles, please let us know so we can address the issue with revenue department on your behalf.”

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Hi matey 

 

1.  Only money brought into Thailand not Global Income (not sure but I think only the Yanks do that) and that’s for Tax Paying Residents (over 180 days)

 

2.   I’ve got one of the LTR Pensioner Visas.   I asked about these changes.  Posted this earlier but this was the response from the BOI LTR Team.  They are pretty adamant there won’t be any change for this type of Visa.  Though they don’t mention Pensions in particular which as you point out could be seen as passive income.  Personally I get mine paid in Australia and bring it in only when needed - in the following tax year.  It’s taxed in Australia and I would consider it savings after that.  
 

“Thank you for your inquiry. On the note of the recent Revenue Department announcement on the new conditions for oversea income that generate from business/ asset or work abroad to be subject for personal income tax. 

 

We would like to address that for the LTR tax benefits: the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets. Therefore the change in conditions will not effect the exemption of the LTR mentioned group. 

 

Therefore, we can assure you that the incentive of the LTR visa is still the same. We also believe the revenue department will shortly give an official clarification also as it is their main responsibility and we will work with them to get the procedure for future assistance i.e. to address when you wire in the money that it is from the work remotely (same as in LTR application)- the revenue can cross check with us if they want, don't worry. 

 

If you have any further inquiry or find any obstacles, please let us know so we can address the issue with revenue department on your behalf.”

Some clarification on those things here, from Sherrings

 

https://sherrings.com/assessable-income-foreign-sources-thailand.html

[MangoKorat]

On 9/18/2023 at 5:09 AM, scorecard said:

Could also be that the individual amount of pension received by some folks is under the Thai personl tax threshhold.

Interesting.  I wonder how this would work then...........................

 

Let's say you are from a country that has a double taxation agreement with Thailand that means tax is paid where it is earned but in that country your income, say a state pension, is below the tax threshold meaning you pay no tax.  Is that money then classed as tax paid?

 

It is highly likely that many expats in such positions will not get sufficient pension for it to be over the tax threshold in the country where its paid but it will almost certainly be over the Thai tax threshold.  Will that income be classed as taxable in Thailand or assesed for tax in the country where it was paid and therefore exempt?

[Jenkins9039]

44 minutes ago, Aldo123 said:

1. Does the new interpretation order mean Thailand intends to tax all residents (over 180 days) on their entire "Global Income"? Or does it mean they only plan to tax foreign remittances/income brought into Thailand each year from one's global income that same year?

I answered this above.

 

As per conversation with Revenue Department, Thailand intends to tax ALL income Remitted.

 

 

[Jenkins9039]

18 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Let's say you are from a country that has a double taxation agreement with Thailand that means tax is paid where it is earned but in that country your income, say a state pension, is below the tax threshold meaning you pay no tax.  Is that money then classed as tax paid?

See my comment above - Yes/No, it would be tax free up-to 150,000 THB and then taxed at Thai rates as Income...

 

Because you don't get a tax receipt when you don't pay tax.

[scorecard]

32 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Interesting.  I wonder how this would work then...........................

 

Let's say you are from a country that has a double taxation agreement with Thailand that means tax is paid where it is earned but in that country your income, say a state pension, is below the tax threshold meaning you pay no tax.  Is that money then classed as tax paid?

 

It is highly likely that many expats in such positions will not get sufficient pension for it to be over the tax threshold in the country where its paid but it will almost certainly be over the Thai tax threshold.  Will that income be classed as taxable in Thailand or assesed for tax in the country where it was paid and therefore exempt?

Good question and we wait and see.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I actually phoned the revenue office (bangkok).

 

Money earned overseas, and or as a business owner overseas regardless of tax overseas or not, is tax free unless remitted and then taxed, this includes companies which say are overseas in tax havens, and say don't have substance in the overseas location (otherwise hire someone on Fiverr on a permanent contract and use their home as the office). 

 

Money from property (rent / sale) overseas will be treated as Income when remitted (this will <deleted> a few people).

 

Money in the form of 'not in the bank account' - say cash or even stablecoins (thankfully public) whereby savings and remitted, is tax free *IF* it was earned before and/or tax was collected, having said that any funds earned in 2023 and remitted will be taxed as Income, evidence to support it is savings is a must, for pre-2023.

 

Money extracted from stock market activities, principle is tax free, ROI is treated as Income if remitted to Thailand.

 

Elite Visa holders 'reportedly' spend around 30,000$ a year (such a low number and I am one of them so not sure where they are getting that from) anyway they will be taxed as Income like everyone else.

 

Pensioners are in for a whammy though... State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that, your private pensions on the other hand will be treated as Income and taxed, note some countries charge tax anyway, the terms of some of the treaties outline that Thailand will provide a credit for the tax paid, what you need to recognise is that is specifically on the $ (equivalent) amount 'earned' and 'remitted' meaning in some countries (say the UK) there is something like a tax exemption of 13/14,000 GBP, whereas in Thailand there is a tax exemption of 150,000 THB + (60,000 THB - needs verification), so from the 150,000 THB onwards you'd be taxed at the standard Thai rates.

 

Note the Government is pushing through higher income for Thais, with luck they also increase the Tax levels upwards... also note 96%+ of Thais don't pay tax (and earn enough just they do not declare it or feel they should not be productive members of society) - the Government has commenced populistic politics which is what specifically has led to the downfall of our own countries (deficit spending and populistic appeal) - in this latest move we are the ones, alongside the productive members of Thai society paying for the populistic policies such as a free 10,000 THB bribe etc.

 

This appears to be the start of the road our own Governments went down, and will need to be factored in before individual property appraisals and tax there etc.

 

Likewise I am somewhat surprised no one has complained that for example, in the time i've been in Thailand, i've seen not one but two exit taxes created, and not one but three entry taxes created under the promise of this or that and then folded into the flight ticket.

 

Somewhere the Thai Government has some major economic hurdles that haven't revealed themselves as of yet, and they are appearing to consolidate into causing more long-term hardship (like our own debasing currencies) by compounding what ever the issue is with populistic vote buying. 

One thing I find particularly disgusting about this is the short notice.  It should have been done as an act of parliament for a major change like this with a longish notice period. But Srettha jumped on this unlawful reinterpretation as a great way to counter critics of his stupid unfunded digital wallet and fuel subsidies, even though any tax from this will not arrive till 2025 over a year after the digital wallet is spent and forgotten by the voters.  As it is all many people will not have records of past income, tax credits and bank balances because there was never much need to keep them.

 

I am even starting to think seriously about leaving for the first time in over 30 years. I will do better in a jurisdiction that taxes global income in the year that it arises but not past income on remittance. I wouldn't mind paying tax on overseas earnings if I had them but being forced to pay tax on past savings remitted just to survive is unacceptable.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Dogmatix

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

See my comment above - Yes/No, it would be tax free up-to 150,000 THB and then taxed at Thai rates as Income...

 

Because you don't get a tax receipt when you don't pay tax.

Remebering that personal tax in Thailand is subject to factors (mostly re size, age etc., of family, from memory) which can reduce the final amount on whch any tax is calculated. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by scorecard

[Neeranam]

14 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I wouldn't mind paying tax on overseas earnings if I had them but being forced to pay tax on past savings remitted just to survive is unacceptable.

Can they actually force us to pay tax on past cross border remittances? If so, how many years? 

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Q 10. This deals with a question about a Thai who moves back to Thailand and brings back money earned while spending several years living abroad.  The answer is vague but what they are saying seems to be that such a person had better make sure they bring in all the money in the year before they become tax resident again. Many Thais returning home will get caught by this unwittingly, if they move back before July in any year without understanding this, which is pretty disgusting.  But even more worrying, this doesn't offer any hope for foreigners who are already tax resident and want to remit savings from abroad going way back, if they say the Thai workers savings would taxable if they brought them back after becoming tax resident again.  It seems to imply tough luck, we'll tax your savings at 35%,m whereas the 2003 RD directive was that savings are not taxable.

Isn't this Q9? About Mr D who worked in China many years?

They write that the money accumulated from working in China is tax free when remitted (when coming back to Thailand), because Mr D was not a resident of Thailand when he received and accumulated this money.

 

So a foreigner who is already a tax resident (and maybe has been a tax resident for years) can bring in savings that accumulated before he ever became a tax resident here. Savings from foreign income from the years he was a tax resident already are taxable whenever remitted to Thailand. 

Good luck proving the time you accumulated your savings!

[MangoKorat]

Well I still think a lot of clarification is needed/will become available soon but............................................

 

I thought Thailand wanted to promote itself as somewhere to retire to?  It seems to me that taxing pensions that wouldn't be taxable in the country they were paid in is something we call - shooting yourself in the foot, is it not?

 

I suspect that many pensioners have retired to Thailand because their pension goes further and therefore they can enjoy a better life during their retirement.

 

I also suspect that those pensioners, who I would add, have no claim to Thai benefits or healthcare. spend a substantial if not massive amount of money in Thailand every month. Some sell their properties back home and buy one/have one built in Thailand - again, income for Thailand.

 

Many of those people will have seen their pensions worth far less over the last few years due to falling exchange rates.  This may tip the balance and I guess many will be forced to leave.

 

So will Thailand not actually earn less in tax income?  At least at the moment they get 7% Vat on most things the foreign pensioners buy.

 

Those 'rich retirees' and business people the Thai government claim to be trying to attract to Thailand will, like they do in most other countries, have ways of avoiding tax and will not be of any use to Thailand in terms of income tax.

[redwood1]

17 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

One thing I find particularly disgusting about this is the short notice.  It should have been done as an act of parliament for a major change like this with a longish notice period. But Srettha jumped on this unlawful reinterpretation as a great way to counter critics of his stupid unfunded digital wallet and fuel subsidies, even though any tax from this will not arrive till 2025 over a year after the digital wallet is spent and forgotten by the voters.  As it is all many people will not have records of past income, tax credits and bank balances because there was never much need to keep them.

 

I am even starting to think seriously about leaving for the first time in over 30 years. I will do better in a jurisdiction that taxes global income in the year that it arises but not past income on remittance. I wouldn't mind paying tax on overseas earnings if I had them but being forced to pay tax on past savings remitted just to survive is unacceptable.

 

There are 80,000 people on retirement visas in Thailand...

 

Let's say every one paid 1,000 dollars in Taxes...

 

That would be 80,000,000 million dollars or about 2,700,000,000 billion baht...

 

The 10,000 baht give away will cost Thailand 560,000,000,000 billion baht....

 

It would take the expat's tax money 207 years to pay off the 10,000 baht giveaway......This would take many generations to pay off with expat money...

 

 

So I think its VERY VERY clear if they say they need to tax the farangs to help pay for the 10,000 baht giveaway this is total nonsense....Farang taxes will hardly help at all....

 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, Jenkins9039 said:

In addition, various "potential" ways to overcome (specific to some people).

• Own company overseas which pays a dividend/salary (recommend Dividend).
  • Company does a loan for amount owed annually (lump sum)
    • Lawyers countersign/translate.
      • Remitted funds are NOT income but a Loan covered by overseas debt which is serviced by your next Annual Dividends. 
• Own a overseas Credit Card
  • Credit Cards are 'Credit Lines' covered under Debt, you are not remitting funds, and your annual overseas Dividends/Other will service that Debt.

 

These are two areas I expect to play out in the Thai courts, and expect to be challenged, but Credit in no country is Remittance, however Thailand will likely claim otherwise especially if the person doesn't routinely leave Thailand during the periods.

 

Note Thailand doesn't charge tax for Bullion/Gold (may change) - Selling Gold overseas would be contestable within Thailand as it's tax free in Thailand. 

 

Other manners to get funds is a quick flight to KL and fly back in with the max (9.5k?) which carries some risk, but ultimately is legal.

 

I think loans from company bank accounts could work.  However, bear in mind that banks under CRS have now started to lift the corporate veil and will report on the beneficial owners of the company bank accounts.  I think in Switzerland they will report on any shareholder who owns over 25% and they will report on beneficial owners of trusts too.  All this without telling you, unless you ask. Bank secrecy is completely gone there.  If that is not enough, BVI companies now have an obligation to file unaudited accounts with their BVI agents for 2023 onwards.  The accounts are not publicly available but can be revealed to any tax authority that is a part of CRS.  So the RD will know, if you are a beneficial owner of the company that makes the loan, and if it is a BVI company, they will be able to see the company accounts you file with the agent to check it really has loans, has paid dividends, salaries etc.  I imagine unaudited accounts requirement is just the thin end of the wedge and audited accounts may follow later.  Of course it may be hard to find auditors for family holding companies, particularly, if the past unaudited accounts filed were fraudulent. 

 

The problem I see is that the RD might lift the corporate veil and say a loan from your company is income.  They could also say that, if a loan is not repaid within a certain time frame. If you pay interest on the loan you have to deduct withholding tax. 

[Dogmatix]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Can they actually force us to pay tax on past cross border remittances? If so, how many years? 

What I meant was past savings that are still overseas and to be remitted in future, not past remittances of past savings.  But yes, they can tax past remittances and can go back 20 years, I think, but only if the remittances comprised earnings in the year they were remitted.  I don't think they will bother with that, particularly as they won't have past CRS information as they only joined this year. They have never bothered with it in the past.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Jenkins9039 said:

I actually phoned the revenue office (bangkok).

 

Money earned overseas, and or as a business owner overseas regardless of tax overseas or not, is tax free unless remitted and then taxed, this includes companies which say are overseas in tax havens, and say don't have substance in the overseas location (otherwise hire someone on Fiverr on a permanent contract and use their home as the office). 

 

Money from property (rent / sale) overseas will be treated as Income when remitted (this will <deleted> a few people).

 

Money in the form of 'not in the bank account' - say cash or even stablecoins (thankfully public) whereby savings and remitted, is tax free *IF* it was earned before and/or tax was collected, having said that any funds earned in 2023 and remitted will be taxed as Income, evidence to support it is savings is a must, for pre-2023.

 

Money extracted from stock market activities, principle is tax free, ROI is treated as Income if remitted to Thailand.

 

Elite Visa holders 'reportedly' spend around 30,000$ a year (such a low number and I am one of them so not sure where they are getting that from) anyway they will be taxed as Income like everyone else.

 

Pensioners are in for a whammy though... State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that, your private pensions on the other hand will be treated as Income and taxed, note some countries charge tax anyway, the terms of some of the treaties outline that Thailand will provide a credit for the tax paid, what you need to recognise is that is specifically on the $ (equivalent) amount 'earned' and 'remitted' meaning in some countries (say the UK) there is something like a tax exemption of 13/14,000 GBP, whereas in Thailand there is a tax exemption of 150,000 THB + (60,000 THB - needs verification), so from the 150,000 THB onwards you'd be taxed at the standard Thai rates.

 

Note the Government is pushing through higher income for Thais, with luck they also increase the Tax levels upwards... also note 96%+ of Thais don't pay tax (and earn enough just they do not declare it or feel they should not be productive members of society) - the Government has commenced populistic politics which is what specifically has led to the downfall of our own countries (deficit spending and populistic appeal) - in this latest move we are the ones, alongside the productive members of Thai society paying for the populistic policies such as a free 10,000 THB bribe etc.

 

This appears to be the start of the road our own Governments went down, and will need to be factored in before individual property appraisals and tax there etc.

 

Likewise I am somewhat surprised no one has complained that for example, in the time i've been in Thailand, i've seen not one but two exit taxes created, and not one but three entry taxes created under the promise of this or that and then folded into the flight ticket.

 

Somewhere the Thai Government has some major economic hurdles that haven't revealed themselves as of yet, and they are appearing to consolidate into causing more long-term hardship (like our own debasing currencies) by compounding what ever the issue is with populistic vote buying. 

This is not altogether bad news, providing it is accurate and fairly complete. If the "UK State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that", that becomes excluded income and shouldn't be reported on the Thai tax return.

 

Ditto US SSc income which is only taxable by the US under DTA rules.

 

The Thai tax return therefore begins with any private pension income and any property rental income. But Thai RD Allowances and deductions for people aged over 65 years total 340,000 baht or about 7,500 Pounds which will reduce the liability for many people, substantially.

 

Capital Gains on the eventual sale of property will be taxable but the principle will be regarded as savings hence tax .

free.

 

It seems to me that a tax free income of around 70k Baht per month is easily achievable, before tax becomes due.

 

 

[Dogmatix]

21 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

There are 80,000 people on retirement visas in Thailand...

 

Let's say every one paid 1,000 dollars in Taxes...

 

That would be 80,000,000 million dollars or about 2,700,000,000 billion baht...

 

The 10,000 baht give away will cost Thailand 560,000,000,000 billion baht....

 

It would take the expat's tax money 207 years to pay off the 10,000 baht giveaway......This would take many generations to pay off with expat money...

 

 

So I think its VERY VERY clear if they say they need to tax the farangs to help pay for the 10,000 baht giveaway this is total nonsense....Farang taxes will hardly help at all....

 

I think you've got too many zeros there but the 207 years is correct.  It is a drop in the bucket but makes Thailand no longer an attractive retirement destination and makes it impossible for retirees who are already here and renting to buy a condo without leaving for over half a tax year which could be costly and inconvenient.  Many will ask why bother coming back?  It creates great uncertainty for LTR visas and Elite/Privilege too, as who knows what they can chuck out at short notice next.  Netting off incremental tax with retirees leaving or not coming and not buying condos and new cars etc, the overall effect on the retiree sector which they have been trying to promoted is bound to be negative in economic terms. How incredibly stupid!

 

I don't think the results will be much better for the Thai overseas investment sector.  Keeping tax accounts for capital gains, dividends and interest is going to be a headache for traders who don't have to do this on their Thai stock portfolios.  If I were doing that I am sure I would give up and bring the money home but this is unfair too because the short notice period means they have to pay tax on earnings from this year and had no time to tax plan. Many wealthy Thai investors will just leave money overseas indefinitely that they would otherwise have reinvested in the Thai economy.  So probably a net negative on the Thai side too. 

 

If you saw Srettha blathering on TV about the digital wallet and the fuel subsidies (he said that 99 economists and two former Bank of Thailand governors were a minority because they were only 101 out of 71 million people), it is clear he is a man of shallow intellect, who can't or is too lazy to think things through.  He seems to just agree to all the ridiculous policies handed to him in scripts by the faceless, unelected  Thaksinite team which is Thailand's equivalent of Classic Dom Cummings to Boris Johnson.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

This is not altogether bad news, providing it is accurate and fairly complete. If the "UK State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that", that becomes excluded income and shouldn't be reported on the Thai tax return.

Unfortunately the UK Thai tax treaty doesn't exempt the UK state pension from taxation in Thailand, only government service pensions for civil servants and local government officers. The US treaty does exempt social security.

[Dogmatix]

25 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Well I still think a lot of clarification is needed/will become available soon but............................................

 

I thought Thailand wanted to promote itself as somewhere to retire to?  It seems to me that taxing pensions that wouldn't be taxable in the country they were paid in is something we call - shooting yourself in the foot, is it not?

 

I suspect that many pensioners have retired to Thailand because their pension goes further and therefore they can enjoy a better life during their retirement.

 

I also suspect that those pensioners, who I would add, have no claim to Thai benefits or healthcare. spend a substantial if not massive amount of money in Thailand every month. Some sell their properties back home and buy one/have one built in Thailand - again, income for Thailand.

 

Many of those people will have seen their pensions worth far less over the last few years due to falling exchange rates.  This may tip the balance and I guess many will be forced to leave.

 

So will Thailand not actually earn less in tax income?  At least at the moment they get 7% Vat on most things the foreign pensioners buy.

 

Those 'rich retirees' and business people the Thai government claim to be trying to attract to Thailand will, like they do in most other countries, have ways of avoiding tax and will not be of any use to Thailand in terms of income tax.

Definitely driving retirees away both those on modest pensions and the wealthy ones. Just the uncertainty (both regarding this edict and worries about future edicts from a flaky government getting deep into debt) and the hassle of having to file tax returns and deal with capricious official in a non rule of law jurisdiction is enough to put most people off.

[benHH]

hi 

 

will savings sent from a UK bank account to a thai bank account be taxable ?

 

sorry if this has been asked before , i couldn't find details for this question

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

Unfortunately the UK Thai tax treaty doesn't exempt the UK state pension from taxation in Thailand, only government service pensions for civil servants and local government officers. The US treaty does exempt social security.

That was my understanding also. But if you see Jenkins post earlier on this page he says he spoke with RD in Bangkok and he wrote, "UK State Pension is tax free as the State will have dealt with that". So, dunno, really. It would make sense that State pension would be disregarded but that's just me.

[moogradod]

42 minutes ago, Lorry said:

.............

So a foreigner who is already a tax resident (and maybe has been a tax resident for years) can bring in savings that accumulated before he ever became a tax resident here. Savings from foreign income from the years he was a tax resident already are taxable whenever remitted to Thailand........

 

...........unless it was remittance to the wife totalling not less than 20 Mio per year, from savings (provable but difficult) and on top taxed fully at the point of origin in the year before the remittance (in the past before 01.01.2024 the old rules apply).

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

Hi matey 

 

1.  Only money brought into Thailand not Global Income (not sure but I think only the Yanks do that) and that’s for Tax Paying Residents (over 180 days)

 

2.   I’ve got one of the LTR Pensioner Visas.   I asked about these changes.  Posted this earlier but this was the response from the BOI LTR Team.  They are pretty adamant there won’t be any change for this type of Visa.  Though they don’t mention Pensions in particular which as you point out could be seen as passive income.  Personally I get mine paid in Australia and bring it in only when needed - in the following tax year.  It’s taxed in Australia and I would consider it savings after that.  
 

“Thank you for your inquiry. On the note of the recent Revenue Department announcement on the new conditions for oversea income that generate from business/ asset or work abroad to be subject for personal income tax. 

 

We would like to address that for the LTR tax benefits: the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets. Therefore the change in conditions will not effect the exemption of the LTR mentioned group. 

 

Therefore, we can assure you that the incentive of the LTR visa is still the same. We also believe the revenue department will shortly give an official clarification also as it is their main responsibility and we will work with them to get the procedure for future assistance i.e. to address when you wire in the money that it is from the work remotely (same as in LTR application)- the revenue can cross check with us if they want, don't worry. 

 

If you have any further inquiry or find any obstacles, please let us know so we can address the issue with revenue department on your behalf.”

The problems with this, as I see it are:

 

1. LTR visas don't provide any exemption for earnings earned before the LTR visa was issued.  Therefore someone coming in with a new LTR visa and wiring funds to buy a condo will have to pay up to 35% tax, if they can't prove they earned the money after the LTR visa was issued, which is unlikely, if they earned the money somewhere else.

 

2. The Royal Decree was announced last year under the previous government and the whole LTR scheme was the brainchild of that government, one guy in particular who didn't get a job in this government. although he hoped to be a minister or at least a deputy minister. So the Srettha government feels no particular obligation to this project.  The LTR tax exemption didn't seem like a big deal when anyone could just wait till the next tax year and get the same exemption. Now resentment will build up from Thais who will see the LTR visas holders like British people used to see the non-domiciled foreigners who got exemption from foreign source income, like Rishi Sunak's rich Indian wife. Now the non-dom tax privileges are being gradually whittled away to nothing. Even though no one cares about expats, Srettha said this is being done in the interest of fairness and equality which will look odd when he gives tax exemption only to rich foreigners while taxing the butts off Thais and less well off foreign retirees who are often struggling to support Thai families. I predict the LTR tax exemption won't survive long term. Another Royal Decree or an amendment to the Revenue Code would eliminate it. Those with 10 year LTR visas are unlikely to get this privilege with their first renewal and it might not even last that long. The first Elite cards came with the right to buy land but that was axed in the first few months with an offer of a refund.  LTR visa holders would probably get their 50k baht back pro-rata, if the tax exemption went mid stream, i.e. a 25k refund if it went after 5 years and you no longer want the visa on that basis.

 

Obviously the BOI people who write that stuff have to sound upbeat because they are still selling the LTR scheme and will judged on their sales numbers.  But they have no power and are part of the PM's office.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Dogmatix