US Government debars Wuhan Institute of Virology from its programs

[Eleftheros]

After 3 years of obfuscation, mis-statements, deflections, and cancellations, the US government has given its clearest signal that dodgy work at the US-funded Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) was likely to have caused the Covid-19 virus outbreak.

 

In very strong language for a government communique, the Department of Health & Human Services issued a Notice of Suspension and Notice of Proposed Debarment directly to WIV director-general Dr Yanyi Wang, noting:

 

  Quote

"In summary, the NIH determined that WIV may have conducted an experiment yielding a level of viral activity which was greater than permitted under the terms of the grant. ... WIV conducted an experiment that violated the terms of the grant regarding viral activity, which possibly did lead or could lead to health issues or other unacceptable outcomes."

 

"NIH's conclusion that WIV likely violated protocols of the NIH regarding biosafety is undisputed."

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As the saying goes, the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth is about 18 months. This one took a little longer.

 

At least we don't have to call it a "pandemic" any more, it's just an "unacceptable outcome".

 

[save the frogs]

damn obfuscation!

[OneMoreFarang]

It would almost be funny if it wouldn't be so serious.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 9/23/2023 at 11:53 AM, Eleftheros said:

the US government has given its clearest signal that dodgy work at the US-funded Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) was likely to have caused the Covid-19 virus outbreak.

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The HHS letter you linked to above makes absolutely no mention of the coronavirus outbreak or anything specific regarding any causal role of WIV in it.  The rest is just unfounded speculation on your part, as usual.

 

There remain divided views among both federal agencies and the scientific community on the origins of the pandemic, with the scientific community especially leaning more in the direction of a natural cause.

 

The HHS action re WIV doesn't change that, especially given that a good part of the rationale for the HHS's action was WIV's refusal to cooperate in the inquiry and provide requested documentation.

 

Newly declassified report shows U.S. intelligence community remains divided over likely origin of Covid

June 24, 2023

 

"A long-anticipated government report on the origins of Covid-19 offered new details on the U.S. intelligence community’s findings but did not state definitively whether the source of the coronavirus was exposure to an infected animal or an event at a laboratory.

...

“All agencies continue to assess that both a natural and laboratory-associated origin remain plausible hypotheses to explain the first human infection,” the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said Friday in a 10-page declassified report.

...

While the National Intelligence Council and four unnamed agencies assessed that natural exposure to an infected animal was the most likely scenario for the first human infection, the Department of Energy and FBI’s assessment was that a laboratory-associated incident was more likely the cause."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/us-intelligence-agencies-remain-divided-likely-covid-origin-rcna90914

 

[rattlesnake]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:19 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The HHS letter you linked to above makes absolutely no mention of the coronavirus outbreak or anything specific regarding any causal role of WIV in it.  The rest is just unfounded speculation on your part, as usual.

 

There remain divided views among both federal agencies and the scientific community on the origins of the pandemic, with the scientific community especially leaning more in the direction of a natural cause.

 

The HHS action re WIV doesn't change that, especially given that a good part of the rationale for the HHS's action was WIV's refusal to cooperate in the inquiry and provide requested documentation.

 

Newly declassified report shows U.S. intelligence community remains divided over likely origin of Covid

June 24, 2023

 

"A long-anticipated government report on the origins of Covid-19 offered new details on the U.S. intelligence community’s findings but did not state definitively whether the source of the coronavirus was exposure to an infected animal or an event at a laboratory.

...

“All agencies continue to assess that both a natural and laboratory-associated origin remain plausible hypotheses to explain the first human infection,” the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said Friday in a 10-page declassified report.

...

While the National Intelligence Council and four unnamed agencies assessed that natural exposure to an infected animal was the most likely scenario for the first human infection, the Department of Energy and FBI’s assessment was that a laboratory-associated incident was more likely the cause."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/us-intelligence-agencies-remain-divided-likely-covid-origin-rcna90914

 

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"Divided views", what a nice euphemism!

 

We've come a long way, I remember very well when those who challenged the official narrative on the natural origin were called nutcase conspiracy theorists.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Actual scientists with expertise in the field lean more toward the natural cause theory, unlike right-wing Republican politicians who have been drum-beating on the issue but have no expertise (or credibility) on the issue whatsoever.

 

What does the science say about the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic?

February 28, 2023

 

"Virologists who study pandemic origins are much less divided than the U.S. intelligence community. They say there is "very convincing" data and "overwhelming evidence" pointing to an animal origin.

 

In particular, scientists published two extensive, peer-reviewed papers in Science in July 2022, offering the strongest evidence to date that the COVID-19 pandemic originated in animals at a market in Wuhan, China."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/28/1160162845/what-does-the-science-say-about-the-origin-of-the-sars-cov-2-pandemic

 

[Nick Carter icp]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:35 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Actual scientists with expertise in the field lean more toward the natural cause theory, unlike right-wing Republican politicians who have been drum-beating on the issue but have no expertise (or credibility) on the issue whatsoever.

 

What does the science say about the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic?

February 28, 2023

 

"Virologists who study pandemic origins are much less divided than the U.S. intelligence community. They say there is "very convincing" data and "overwhelming evidence" pointing to an animal origin.

 

In particular, scientists published two extensive, peer-reviewed papers in Science in July 2022, offering the strongest evidence to date that the COVID-19 pandemic originated in animals at a market in Wuhan, China."

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/28/1160162845/what-does-the-science-say-about-the-origin-of-the-sars-cov-2-pandemic

 

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How far away from the Wuhan institute if virology , where they experiment on virus's like Covid 19  was that Wuhan animals market ?

   What was the distance between the market and the institute ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:44 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

How far away from the Wuhan institute if virology , where they experiment on virus's like Covid 19  was that Wuhan animals market ?

   What was the distance between the market and the institute ?

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New England Journal of Medicine:

June 22, 2023

 

"Proponents of the accidental laboratory leak theory stress the geographic location of the WIV in the city where the pandemic began. They point to the presence of the bat coronavirus RaTG13 strain at the laboratory, arguing that genetic manipulations such as gain-of-function (GOF) research may have produced SARS-CoV-2. Most scientists refute this theory because there is considerable evolutionary distance between the two viruses."

 

The Origins of Covid-19 — Why It Matters (and Why It Doesn’t)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

 

[Nick Carter icp]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:53 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

New England Journal of Medicine:

June 22, 2023

 

"Proponents of the accidental laboratory leak theory stress the geographic location of the WIV in the city where the pandemic began. They point to the presence of the bat coronavirus RaTG13 strain at the laboratory, arguing that genetic manipulations such as gain-of-function (GOF) research may have produced SARS-CoV-2. Most scientists refute this theory because there is considerable evolutionary distance between the two viruses."

 

The Origins of Covid-19 — Why It Matters (and Why It Doesn’t)

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

 

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If you are going to reply to me, you should at least answer my question 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:25 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

If you are going to reply to me, you should at least answer my question 

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"Most scientists refute this theory because there is considerable evolutionary distance between the two viruses."  

 

That kinda makes the physical distance issue irrelevant, at least in terms of the COVID lab leak theory, given the substantial divergence between the bat virus in the lab and the virus that ended up as COVID.

 

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:30 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Most scientists refute this theory because there is considerable evolutionary distance between the two viruses."   That kinda makes the distance issue irrelevant.

 

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Do you believe everything you are told without questioning  it or being a bit suspicious that some people may not be being completely truthful 

[NoDisplayName]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:19 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The HHS letter you linked to above makes absolutely no mention of the coronavirus outbreak or anything specific regarding any causal role of WIV in it.  The rest is just unfounded speculation on your part, as usual.

 

There remain divided views among both federal agencies and the scientific community on the origins of the pandemic, with the scientific community especially leaning more in the direction of a natural cause.

 

The HHS action re WIV doesn't change that, especially given that a good part of the rationale for the HHS's action was WIV's refusal to cooperate in the inquiry and provide requested documentation.

 

Newly declassified report shows U.S. intelligence community remains divided over likely origin of Covid

June 24, 2023

 

"A long-anticipated government report on the origins of Covid-19 offered new details on the U.S. intelligence community’s findings but did not state definitively whether the source of the coronavirus was exposure to an infected animal or an event at a laboratory.

...

“All agencies continue to assess that both a natural and laboratory-associated origin remain plausible hypotheses to explain the first human infection,” the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said Friday in a 10-page declassified report.

...

While the National Intelligence Council and four unnamed agencies assessed that natural exposure to an infected animal was the most likely scenario for the first human infection, the Department of Energy and FBI’s assessment was that a laboratory-associated incident was more likely the cause."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/us-intelligence-agencies-remain-divided-likely-covid-origin-rcna90914

 

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Gosh, another government report about the covids!  This must be serious!

5 intel agencies say most likely zoonotic origin, two say can't make a determination, and two say the lab leak was the most likely origin.

 

Those last two are the most concerning, "the Department of Energy and FBI’s assessment was that a laboratory-associated incident was more likely the cause."  But how, ummmm............confident........are they?  That's odd, nothing in the article.

 

What does Mr. Googles have to say?   Oh, here it is!

  Quote

WASHINGTON — The Energy Department concluded with "low confidence" that the Covid-19 pandemic "likely" originated from a laboratory leak in Wuhan, China, according to a classified report delivered to key lawmakers on the House and Senate Intelligence committees, two sources with direct knowledge told NBC News.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/us-energy-department-assesses-low-confidence-covid-may-originated-chin-rcna72378

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Low confidence?  Why didn't the linked article tell us that?

  Quote

Low confidence generally means questionable or implausible information was used, the information is too fragmented or poorly corroborated to make solid analytic inferences, or significant concerns or problems with sources existed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_confidence

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Oh, I see.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:33 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

Do you believe everything you are told without questioning  it or being a bit suspicious that some people may not be being completely truthful 

Expand  

You mean like the Republican right-wingers in Congress?

 

For me, I like to weigh the actual evidence and the varying opinions of actual experts on the issues of what to make of that evidence.... something the Republican conspiracy theorists on this issue seem to avoid like the plague.

 

"All U.S. intelligence agencies rejected the allegation that participants in a clandestine Chinese biologic weapons program intentionally developed SARS-CoV-2. Yet a report issued in mid-December 2022 by Republican members of the House of Representatives still credited that theory."

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

 

[Nick Carter icp]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:38 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I like the weigh the actual evidence and the varying opinions of actual experts on the issues of what to make of that evidence.... something the Republican conspiracy theorists on this issue seem to avoid like the plague.

 

"All U.S. intelligence agencies rejected the allegation that participants in a clandestine Chinese biologic weapons program intentionally developed SARS-CoV-2. Yet a report issued in mid-December 2022 by Republican members of the House of Representatives still credited that theory."

 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2305081

 

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You could try to forget about Republicans or a while , not everything revolves around what they think 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:41 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

You could try to forget about Republicans or a while , not everything revolves around what they think 

Expand  

When it comes to COVID conspiracy theories of all sorts, they're at or near the top of the heap, and various members here are continually echoing their spurious, unsubstantiated claims, as with the OP in this thread.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

When it comes to COVID conspiracy theories of all sorts, they're at or near the top of the heap.

 

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If you are looking for a Republican to have a fight with, well I am sorry but I am not one of them, you will have to find someone else to argue with 

[tgw]

  On 9/23/2023 at 5:30 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Most scientists refute this theory because there is considerable evolutionary distance between the two viruses."  

 

That kinda makes the physical distance issue irrelevant, at least in terms of the COVID lab leak theory, given the substantial divergence between the bat virus in the lab and the virus that ended up as COVID.

Expand  

I have written quite extensively on the subject a bit more than a year ago - I am of the opinion that the virus is of animal origin and leaked from another lab in Wuhan. Maybe it's the virus that decimated Chinese mink farm populations in 2019.

 

Coronaviruses have a history of escaping labs very easily and Wuhan concentrates 25% of the whole country's bio labs, for Universities, Veterinary Institutes, Disease Control, Ministry for Agriculture, Virology, etc.  A lot of the main labs, central analysis facilities are in Wuhan.

Typically samples of a virus collected in a mink farm would be examined in a level 2 lab, probably by students.

 

So it's occam's razor:
- virus possibly breaks out in mink farms, infects humans and infects back minks
- virus sample is taken

- sample is sent to Wuhan for analysis (no surprise, most national veterinary virology facilities are in Wuhan)
- lab is probably level 2, low safety procedures
- virus escapes lab (coronaviruses escaping labs is a common occurrence, especially when as contagious as this one)
- result: COVID

of course Chinese authorities wanted to hide their responsibility

[impulse]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:19 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Newly declassified report shows U.S. intelligence community remains divided over likely origin of Covid

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Is that the same intelligence community that pinkie swore promised that the laptop was a Russian concoction?

 

[ozimoron]

  On 9/23/2023 at 10:04 PM, impulse said:

Is that the same intelligence community that pinkie swore promised that the laptop was a Russian concoction?

 

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it isn't?

[VinnieK]

They won't be ...errr....cough cough....'funding' it anymore..

Not that they were funding it for years prior to the COVID outbreak of course.

That would be a conspiracy..

[BarstoolChang]

  On 9/23/2023 at 4:19 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The HHS letter you linked to above makes absolutely no mention of the coronavirus outbreak or anything specific regarding any causal role of WIV in it.  The rest is just unfounded speculation on your part, as usual.

 

There remain divided views among both federal agencies and the scientific community on the origins of the pandemic, with the scientific community especially leaning more in the direction of a natural cause.

 

The HHS action re WIV doesn't change that, especially given that a good part of the rationale for the HHS's action was WIV's refusal to cooperate in the inquiry and provide requested documentation.

 

Newly declassified report shows U.S. intelligence community remains divided over likely origin of Covid

June 24, 2023

 

"A long-anticipated government report on the origins of Covid-19 offered new details on the U.S. intelligence community’s findings but did not state definitively whether the source of the coronavirus was exposure to an infected animal or an event at a laboratory.

...

“All agencies continue to assess that both a natural and laboratory-associated origin remain plausible hypotheses to explain the first human infection,” the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said Friday in a 10-page declassified report.

...

While the National Intelligence Council and four unnamed agencies assessed that natural exposure to an infected animal was the most likely scenario for the first human infection, the Department of Energy and FBI’s assessment was that a laboratory-associated incident was more likely the cause."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/us-intelligence-agencies-remain-divided-likely-covid-origin-rcna90914

 

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It's time for your 6th booster shot, John.

[ozimoron]

  On 9/24/2023 at 1:46 AM, BarstoolChang said:

It's time for your 6th booster shot, John.

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Mine too, do you know where I can get one in Pattaya?

[BenStark]

  On 9/24/2023 at 1:47 AM, ozimoron said:

Mine too, do you know where I can get one in Pattaya?

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And don't forget to get some new stock of the 7-layer masks, and wearing them when you are alone in the room, or are you more advanced yet?

 

https://www.fgear.in/products/copy-of-f-gear-pearl-f95-mask-grey-pack-of-1-safeguard-7-layer-iso-ce-sitra-lab-certified-95-bacteria-filtration-1

[ozimoron]

  On 9/24/2023 at 1:58 AM, BenStark said:

And don't forget to get some new stock of the 7-layer masks, and wearing them when you are alone in the room, or are you more advanced yet?

 

https://www.fgear.in/products/copy-of-f-gear-pearl-f95-mask-grey-pack-of-1-safeguard-7-layer-iso-ce-sitra-lab-certified-95-bacteria-filtration-1

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I think you probably sit there and imagine a lot of things.

[BenStark]

  On 9/24/2023 at 1:59 AM, ozimoron said:

I think you probably sit there and imagine a lot of things.

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Just the opposite

[ozimoron]

  On 9/24/2023 at 2:00 AM, BenStark said:

Just the opposite

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Let me think. What did I accuse you personally of? That's right, nothing.

[BenStark]

  On 9/24/2023 at 2:02 AM, ozimoron said:

Let me think. What did I accuse you personally of? That's right, nothing.

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A that so much loved word by the extreme wokes.

 

Nothing, you have nothing.

 

You accused me of sitting there imagining a lot of things.

 

Well, to say the least, I don't imagine that I need a 6th booster, because otherwise I may die from the next covid variant

[ozimoron]

  On 9/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, BenStark said:

A that so much loved word by the extreme wokes.

 

Nothing, you have nothing.

 

You accused me of sitting there imagining a lot of things.

 

Well, to say the least, I don't imagine that I need a 6th booster, because otherwise I may die from the next covid variant

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I don';t imagine it either. A medical expert somewhere recommended it.

[Eleftheros]

  On 9/24/2023 at 2:08 AM, ozimoron said:

I don';t imagine it either. A medical expert somewhere recommended it.

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I think it was Rachel Maddow on MSNBC..

[ozimoron]

  On 9/24/2023 at 2:20 AM, Eleftheros said:

I think it was Rachel Maddow on MSNBC..

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Nah, I think his name started with an F. Kind of Italian sounding.