Why rich foreigners like me are spending much less in Thailand

[Olmate]

6 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

The OP's alter ego?

 On OP, s payroll to play  'tagteam'! 

[charleskerins]

6 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Is it just me, or are others not getting the point of this thread.

It appears the OP just wants to let everyone know he has some money, and cant work out any of the 127 ways there are to buy something at 7/11.

Maybe he's looking for 128?    Ugly American ring  a bell?      Want some whine with your cheese Holmey ?  I'm an America my youngest son lives here - food is good ,beer needs work ,people are nice . Shut the front door 

[Walker88]

Okay. I read the whole thing. It wasn't what I expected.

 

Thailand does make it difficult to spend money, but not so much in 7-11 or Siam Paragon. Where it makes it difficult, in my opinion, are:

 

1) Limits on RE purchases by foreigners

 

2) An extremely complicated and bureaucratic process when one wants to buy/establish a business

 

I have heard the argument about buying RE, but the reality is foreigners would not drive up prices anymore, nor put prices out of reach of the average Thai. Chinese buy plenty of property, because they find loopholes that are not available to everyone. More importantly, Thailand's 1% control 75% of all assets in Thailand. THEY are the ones keeping property out of reach of the average Thai, save for in rural areas.

 

Regarding doing business, only Americans---via the Treaty of Amity---are allowed 100% ownership of a Thai business. Other foreigners are limited to 49%, and must find a trustworthy Thai partner. That is not always easy, especially for someone relatively new to the market. Reporting is somewhat onerous, and there are folks in positions of authority who expect tributes.

 

A second issue is the visa bureaucracy. I know some members here are business owners, but most are retirees, married, digital nomads, or scamming the visa system. My Non-B Business Visa is now a 170 page application, done yearly, and redundant (as little has changed since the last renewal). It could be 20,000 pages and the officer would find something missing, even without looking at the tome. Whatever is missing---apparently officers can request whatever additional documents they want, such as one's 2nd grade report card---can generally be fixed instantly, albeit for a fee. That is irritating. The renewal usually costs somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 baht. Granted that isn't make-or-break money, but the nonsense is off-putting.

 

Things will be made worse if Thailand imposes the tax on cash inflows for those staying more than 180 days in country. Funds sent to Thailand are not necessary current income. It may well be savings from many years in the past, which has already been taxed by a home country government. Proving that is just additional expense and bureaucracy.

[FritsSikkink]

6 hours ago, RandomFarangDontAsk said:

It is too hard to spend money in Thailand, and this issue is getting worse and worse.

 

Firstly, I need to explain, and before that I need to apologize. Some will see this post as incredibly arrogant, others will see it as pathetic, others will see it as fake, or whatever. The purpose of this post is simply to highlight an important issue in Thailand that I simply cannot bring up anywhere else. There is no real public forum for expats in Thailand that Thais will listen to, which is probably by design. Nonetheless, the issue I want to highlight is one of the pointless frictions that keeps this country’s economy back. I know no one will listen or care, but I think this needs to get documented on the off chance one clever Thai journalist who actually cares about the country’s economy can bring any of the myriad growing issues in Thailand to the surface.

 

I believe I am one of those highly sought after “quality” tourists in the eyes of the Thai government, not because I’m a good person (I’m not) but because I am wealthy. I’m in the top 2% of wealth and 10% of income earners in the U.S., and living full time on a Thailand Elite visa in Thailand I spend about 3m thb per year on living excluding what i spend on that visa and excluding multiple trips outside of Thailand (I’m only here about 9 months out of the year in total).

 

I do not look at prices and do not care about them, at least in Thailand. I pay my maid triple the market rate, I happily buy heavily tariffed imported cars, alcohol, and so on—I consider all of this a small price to pay in the scheme of things, and it’s too insignificant an amount of money for me to pay attention to. As a result, I’m a perfect mark for scams—but since i avoid tourist areas and have been here a long time, I’m not prey to them. I do overtip, though—taxi drivers never get less than 100 thb, masseuses never less than a 80% tip, wait staff will always get 20% tips even if there’s a service charge, and so on.

 

People like me contribute significantly to the Thai economy, and the Thai government has many times said they want more people like me: high earners to spend a lot in the country. I am doing precisely that, but I’m starting to spend less and my spending is likely to continue to decline.

 

Why? It started with clothes. Clothes are very poor quality in Thailand unless one purchases designer brands—but since I can get those abroad anyway at a lower tax rate, why bother?

 

Then it started with 7/11. I know this sounds bizarre, but compulsive stops to the shop to buy a snack or drink is no longer a part of my lifestyle. Why? I, like many others, have switched to digital payments, but I still am not sure which mobile payment app works with 7/11 (is it true money?), but my bank doesn’t work there so I don’t go there anymore.

 

There are many things these days that I would buy but do not because the digital payment process is a firction point that I, in my old retired years, am too lazy to deal with. I’m fine, thanks.

 

Then there’s the online shopping mega-apps, which I probably can’t name on this forum. Both have been deleted from my phone after too many fake and defective items. Which motivated me to start buying products from the large and well respected department stores owned my multi-billionaire households in Thailand—except here, too, I end up overpaying by several thousand baht as I’m given the wrong item (in one case), or I end up waiting weeks for the delivery for no real reason.

 

Wait times for delivery are another issue that has made ecommerce more miserable. Again, why not just wait for the next time I fly to Europe and just buy everything there? Not only will it be cheaper, but the stress of fretting over quality isn’t there anymore.

 

Hiring a bilingual personal shopper obviates many of these issues, and I have indeed tried this. Briefly. I grew up poor and still am unaccustomed to having enough money to do things like this, so it felt odd—but more importantly, it was too much of a hassle. My former shopper was great, but suddenly my life was a frustrating game of telephone.

 

We’re talking about small potatoes now, so let’s get into financing.

 

I have a Mercedes CLS, not the most impressive car, but it is very comfortable and I like how it looks. A pricier car would be more comfortable and would have been my choice, and I am not even opposed to paying double or more of what it’d cost in America or elsewhere. However, I am opposed to paying all of it at once and not having access to the low financing that partly compensates for inflated sticker prices on cars. I acknowledge this is more of a temperament issue than anything, but surely I am not the only high net worth individual who feels this way and who would consider Thailand as a base.

 

For houses, this issue is exponentially compounded. There is a 135m thb house I nearly bought a couple of years ago. The issue of having such a large amount of assets in another person’s name is daunting, and that I would have been happy to counteract that risk by having a Thai institution’s skin in the game. If, for instance, a bank lent some of the money on this house, that bank would be as eager as me to insure that whatever legal structure used to purchase and occupy the house would indeed stand the test of time.

 

There are many legal ways to do this (leaseholds, Thai companies), and I even found a pathway that I was comfortable with and did mitigate the risks, as long as, from my perspective, a Thai bank had some collateral on my purchase of the house. A 20% LTV mortgage should, in theory, be absurdly easy to get, especially when the monthly payments reflect a small percentage of one’s income. These kinds of financing arrangements are very common with large property purchases (I used to work in this field so I know they are common). The only way I could arrange this is with a non-Thai institution, which doesn’t satisfy the risk management requirement I put in front of me.

 

So, not only is the 3 million baht I spend annually in Thailand dwindling because it’s harder for me to buy snacks, and not only are my relatively large purchases dwindling because buying cars, cell phones, and nice clothing is emotionally exhausting and overly time consuming. I am also withholding literally millions of dollars of foreign direct investment with zero expectations of a return (I’m hardly planning on renting my house out and wiring the puny income to America); if I’d bought the house and then died before selling it, that would have been millions of dollars injected into the Thai economy literally for free.

 

I wonder if, perhaps, this is the issue. Thailand’s injection of foreign cash for really very little return—we just want nice beaches and pina coladas for the most part—is part of what has kept Thailand’s economy inefficient and poor moving. Whatever the reason, this post is a little historical document about how Thailand has effectively cost itself millions of dollars in foreign investment. This is not a debatable fact—I am the one keeping those millions from Thailand! What is debatable is how many of me are there, and how many billions of dollars Thailand is losing out because of its immature and ineffective management, both in government and private industry.

So in short:

1) you are not able to find out how to use a 7/11 APP and ask somebody to teach you.

2) you aren't able to use a debit card at other shops

3) you are moaning about prices to high because of taxes.

 

Goodbye.

[Spamhead]

56 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Everyone needs to show ID to do that.

I've lived here many years and regularly post letters abroad.

I have never been asked for any ID whatsoever nor have I seen

or heard of anyone else being asked to show ID for this.

 

I think you may be confusing this with parcels being posted.

[ThomasThBKK]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Someone who claims to be so wealthy and who could therefore live anywhere in the word chooses to live in a lawless and corrupt-to-the-core country with generally poor infrastructure? Come on! I suppose though you could be both very rich and insane.

yeah like millions of other people that have a nice house or condo in Thailand, or drive a nice car, all of that stuff costs serious money here...

 

This is always the dumbest argument people can bring on. 

[Liverpool Lou]

5 minutes ago, Spamhead said:

I've lived here many years and regularly post letters abroad.

I have never been asked for any ID whatsoever nor have I seen

or heard of anyone else being asked to show ID for this.

 

I think you may be confusing this with parcels being posted.

No, I m not confused, I am asked every time.   There are notices posted in Nana Post Office, for instance, warning that original ID/passport is required for all overseas mail.  Which specific Post Office are you referring to that doesn't enforce this requirement?

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, RandomFarangDontAsk said:

I am one of those highly sought after “quality” tourists in the eyes of the Thai government

7 hours ago, RandomFarangDontAsk said:

I’m only here about 9 months out of the year in total

Good news. Under the proposed new Thai tax law you're considered a "resident," not a tourist, and might have to pay significant taxes on your foreign (outside of Thailand) income. Just one more dom3dtic expense you can brag about contributing to the Thai economy and helping Thailand's income inequality. 

And you will receive in return from the Thai government - nothing.

[Spamhead]

13 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, I m not confused, I am asked every time.   There are notices posted in Nana Post Office, for instance, warning that original ID/passport is required for all overseas mail.  Which specific Post Office are you referring to that doesn't enforce this 

27 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, I m not confused, I am asked every time.   There are notices posted in Nana Post Office, for instance, warning that original ID/passport is required for all overseas mail.  Which specific Post Office are you referring to that doesn't enforce this requirement?

228 Moo 5, Bang Mueang Subdistrict, Mueang District, Samut Prakan 10270

[Purdey]

A lot of people turning green on AN today...

[johnnybangkok]

7 hours ago, RandomFarangDontAsk said:

It is too hard to spend money in Thailand, and this issue is getting worse and worse.

 

Firstly, I need to explain, and before that I need to apologize. Some will see this post as incredibly arrogant, others will see it as pathetic, others will see it as fake, or whatever. The purpose of this post is simply to highlight an important issue in Thailand that I simply cannot bring up anywhere else. There is no real public forum for expats in Thailand that Thais will listen to, which is probably by design. Nonetheless, the issue I want to highlight is one of the pointless frictions that keeps this country’s economy back. I know no one will listen or care, but I think this needs to get documented on the off chance one clever Thai journalist who actually cares about the country’s economy can bring any of the myriad growing issues in Thailand to the surface.

 

I believe I am one of those highly sought after “quality” tourists in the eyes of the Thai government, not because I’m a good person (I’m not) but because I am wealthy. I’m in the top 2% of wealth and 10% of income earners in the U.S., and living full time on a Thailand Elite visa in Thailand I spend about 3m thb per year on living excluding what i spend on that visa and excluding multiple trips outside of Thailand (I’m only here about 9 months out of the year in total).

 

I do not look at prices and do not care about them, at least in Thailand. I pay my maid triple the market rate, I happily buy heavily tariffed imported cars, alcohol, and so on—I consider all of this a small price to pay in the scheme of things, and it’s too insignificant an amount of money for me to pay attention to. As a result, I’m a perfect mark for scams—but since i avoid tourist areas and have been here a long time, I’m not prey to them. I do overtip, though—taxi drivers never get less than 100 thb, masseuses never less than a 80% tip, wait staff will always get 20% tips even if there’s a service charge, and so on.

 

People like me contribute significantly to the Thai economy, and the Thai government has many times said they want more people like me: high earners to spend a lot in the country. I am doing precisely that, but I’m starting to spend less and my spending is likely to continue to decline.

 

Why? It started with clothes. Clothes are very poor quality in Thailand unless one purchases designer brands—but since I can get those abroad anyway at a lower tax rate, why bother?

 

Then it started with 7/11. I know this sounds bizarre, but compulsive stops to the shop to buy a snack or drink is no longer a part of my lifestyle. Why? I, like many others, have switched to digital payments, but I still am not sure which mobile payment app works with 7/11 (is it true money?), but my bank doesn’t work there so I don’t go there anymore.

 

There are many things these days that I would buy but do not because the digital payment process is a firction point that I, in my old retired years, am too lazy to deal with. I’m fine, thanks.

 

Then there’s the online shopping mega-apps, which I probably can’t name on this forum. Both have been deleted from my phone after too many fake and defective items. Which motivated me to start buying products from the large and well respected department stores owned my multi-billionaire households in Thailand—except here, too, I end up overpaying by several thousand baht as I’m given the wrong item (in one case), or I end up waiting weeks for the delivery for no real reason.

 

Wait times for delivery are another issue that has made ecommerce more miserable. Again, why not just wait for the next time I fly to Europe and just buy everything there? Not only will it be cheaper, but the stress of fretting over quality isn’t there anymore.

 

Hiring a bilingual personal shopper obviates many of these issues, and I have indeed tried this. Briefly. I grew up poor and still am unaccustomed to having enough money to do things like this, so it felt odd—but more importantly, it was too much of a hassle. My former shopper was great, but suddenly my life was a frustrating game of telephone.

 

We’re talking about small potatoes now, so let’s get into financing.

 

I have a Mercedes CLS, not the most impressive car, but it is very comfortable and I like how it looks. A pricier car would be more comfortable and would have been my choice, and I am not even opposed to paying double or more of what it’d cost in America or elsewhere. However, I am opposed to paying all of it at once and not having access to the low financing that partly compensates for inflated sticker prices on cars. I acknowledge this is more of a temperament issue than anything, but surely I am not the only high net worth individual who feels this way and who would consider Thailand as a base.

 

For houses, this issue is exponentially compounded. There is a 135m thb house I nearly bought a couple of years ago. The issue of having such a large amount of assets in another person’s name is daunting, and that I would have been happy to counteract that risk by having a Thai institution’s skin in the game. If, for instance, a bank lent some of the money on this house, that bank would be as eager as me to insure that whatever legal structure used to purchase and occupy the house would indeed stand the test of time.

 

There are many legal ways to do this (leaseholds, Thai companies), and I even found a pathway that I was comfortable with and did mitigate the risks, as long as, from my perspective, a Thai bank had some collateral on my purchase of the house. A 20% LTV mortgage should, in theory, be absurdly easy to get, especially when the monthly payments reflect a small percentage of one’s income. These kinds of financing arrangements are very common with large property purchases (I used to work in this field so I know they are common). The only way I could arrange this is with a non-Thai institution, which doesn’t satisfy the risk management requirement I put in front of me.

 

So, not only is the 3 million baht I spend annually in Thailand dwindling because it’s harder for me to buy snacks, and not only are my relatively large purchases dwindling because buying cars, cell phones, and nice clothing is emotionally exhausting and overly time consuming. I am also withholding literally millions of dollars of foreign direct investment with zero expectations of a return (I’m hardly planning on renting my house out and wiring the puny income to America); if I’d bought the house and then died before selling it, that would have been millions of dollars injected into the Thai economy literally for free.

 

I wonder if, perhaps, this is the issue. Thailand’s injection of foreign cash for really very little return—we just want nice beaches and pina coladas for the most part—is part of what has kept Thailand’s economy inefficient and poor moving. Whatever the reason, this post is a little historical document about how Thailand has effectively cost itself millions of dollars in foreign investment. This is not a debatable fact—I am the one keeping those millions from Thailand! What is debatable is how many of me are there, and how many billions of dollars Thailand is losing out because of its immature and ineffective management, both in government and private industry.

So, do you have money?

Its not clear from your post ????

[richard_smith237]

37 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

yeah like millions of other people that have a nice house or condo in Thailand, or drive a nice car, all of that stuff costs serious money here...

 

This is always the dumbest argument people can bring on. 

Indeed... I know guys with 40 million baht houses... Happily married etc, house is in their Wife's name of course... but its not really right, is it.

I think there is an option for wealthy guys to make their 'investment' here over a certain amount and they may be able to own property outright, but as the Op also mentioned, its risky.

 

For a single guy, why would they come here and make those sorts of purchases.

 

The same goes for Cars... Why can't foreigners who can prove income finance a car ?... not everyone wants to pay up front.

 

The 'system' seems set up to 'offend' those willing to spend plenty of money here. 

 

And... as the Op mentioned, unless making purchases from street markets, the items in department stores are often more expensive that the same items in our home countries... 

Luxuiry items, forget it, a lot more expensive here. 

 

The 7-11 thing... Its just stupid and another example of how Thailand refused to put the consumer first....  refusing to accept PromptPay and forcing TrueMoney (because thats owned by the same people) highlights exactly this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prubangboy]

Not getting the clothing complaints. An Izod polo shirt costs the same as in America. A Central Dept Store one costs the same as Walmart (and is a little better). Muji is my go-to for everything else.

 

I find it hard to spend fifty bucks a day here out of pocket, and that's factoring in a Starbucks brekkie and a sushi dinner. For two. AND there's a few $30-40 days in the week when we just order in vegan or pad thai from the good place (Ging Gri in Nimman).

 

For me, the biggest luxury letdown in Thailand has been upscale dining. Unless you're going for the higher end of seafood in a nice place, you really top out quality/value-wise at 3-500 baht. There's a limit to how creatively they can do up those Khao Soi Noodles (Khao Soi Nimman is worth the extra dollar).

 

I don't pretend my sushi lunches are moving the Thai economy. Every last whitie dollar spent by every last whitie amounts to a rounding error in an economy this size.

 

I'm the opposite of the OP: I will never buy a property, a car, or possess any household goods totaling even $1,000. Money is piling up back home.

 

To have every last thing I want, good medical care, lots of personal services, and still see my bank account rise every month means that I have hit the ceiling of what I can materially absorb in life. Whatever % that puts me in is meaningless.

 

Buddha was asked what should wealthy householders who have given to their families, servants, and the monkhood do next.

 

Buddha said, "Abide".  Which I take to mean chill.

 

I'm on it, B-man.

 

[newbee2022]

Too much time

Too boring

Too ridiculous 

[Toby1947]

If I was as rich as you I'd have more money than you. How? I'd do a bit of window cleaning on the side. 

[trainman34014]

Personally i've never had a problem buying a Toasted Sandwich in 7/11; but i'm not as rich as him and i carry Cash.   I wonder if he has ever heard of that ?

[rwill]

I'm fairly well off.  I'm spending as much as I ever did.  Probably more.  But I don't care about trying to show off my social status.  

[Bangkok Barry]

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

3 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Someone who claims to be so wealthy and who could therefore live anywhere in the word chooses to live in a lawless and corrupt-to-the-core country with generally poor infrastructure? Come on! I suppose though you could be both very rich and insane.

yeah like millions of other people that have a nice house or condo in Thailand, or drive a nice car, all of that stuff costs serious money here...

 

This is always the dumbest argument people can bring on. 

I doubt very much that there are many mega-rich people, apart from Thais, who choose Thailand as the best place in the world to live. The type of people - the millions, you say - that live here are not in the same league as the OP claims to be. Not even close. They are normal and would almost certainly spend far, far more on a house in their own country. My old very average terraced house in the UK now costs close to a million pounds. There are not many people spending 40 million plus on a house here. Did you? So if any argument is dumb, it's yours.

[arick]

Because they have already lost millions on fruad and corruption in this country! 

[ThaiFelix]

Can you change hands without missing a beat?  ????

[Celsius]

2 hours ago, ThomasThBKK said:

yeah like millions of other people that have a nice house or condo in Thailand, or drive a nice car, all of that stuff costs serious money here...

 

Nice house? Stopped reading right there. 

 

Rich people don't get rich buying something they can not even own,

[Enoon]

"I’m in the top 2% of wealth and 10% of income earners in the U.S."

 

What are you doing slumming it in Thailand?......If I was the UK equivalent I would be nowhere near the place.

 

Your story reads like an average Joes complaint about prices/services.......but "adding a few zeros" to make you sound like a "credible source".

 

All in all a bit desperate and creepy.

 

 

[BTB1977]

Wow, I thought I was the only one. Good to know there is more just like me. 

[nobodysfriend]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

A lot of the responses are typical of what can be expected from many who's attraction to Thailand is most certainly not about 'quality'.

 

Thailand is a wonderful country for a rich man .

If you can pay the price , everything is for sale , even justice . The price for this is very variable , depends on the crime comitted ... let's hope for the OP that he will never need this .

[gearbox]

9 hours ago, save the frogs said:

we're illiterates here. keep it brief.

 

they're putting you out of your misery.

if you buy houses like that, you'll be a target. 

 

The top 2% in the US have net worth cut off of 2.2 mil, yet the OP just casually tries to buy a house worth more than 4m USD. The numbers don't match...

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/know-im-rich-140000452.html

[KannikaP]

2 hours ago, Spamhead said:

Which specific Post Office are you referring to that doesn't enforce this 

My local, Bang Rakam, post office does not. 

[barmatt]

Ever thought about donating some of your cash to some needy charities in Thailand...a few dollars goes a long way ????

[ujayujay]

????????????.......

[liddelljohn]

Random Farang I almost totally agree with your  surmises

[JayClay]

17 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Emphasis.   

Okay let me rephrase that for you. I sometimes forget that you are clearly unable to understand the context of a question.... What was the point of emphasizing the word "are"??

 

17 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Incidentally, (as you brought up grammar) what was the purpose of spelling "italicising" with a "z" ("zed") and what was the purpose of the double question mark?  

Firstly, I hope we have now established that I didn't, in fact, raise a grammar issue.

 

I also don't usually respond to people pointing out such issues but I'll make a special case for you as it is actually possible that you really don't understand. The double question marks are also for emphasis. In this case to emphasize the confusion as to why you yourself placed emphasis on such a mundane verb.

 

As for spelling issues.... As long as my point is made, I don't really care if there's the odd typo/auto correct issue/mis spelling. Replies to you (or anybody else on this forum, to be honest) don't warrant the time and effort required to ensure that I have created a flawless masterpiece of wording.

 

(edit. Bold font nothing to do with me)

Edited October 11, 2023 by JayClay