Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Neeranam

 

So you can't even stick with your 'ignore' threats?

So are you ignoring me, can you not answer the question?

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

So are you ignoring me, can you not answer the question?

 

 

[Neeranam]

Heard the Thai  hostages called 'Thai nationals' on a few medias now but other nationalities called , for example, 'Filipinos'. Why are they not just called 'Thais'? It would make sense if they were Israeli/Thai dual citizens, if that is possible, or Naturalized Israeli citizens, which I doubt can happen.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Neeranam

[novacova]

The United Nations General Assembly yesterday voted in favor of a motion calling on Israel to immediately withdraw from the Golan Heights, Judea, Samaria and the eastern half of Jerusalem.

 

[Thorgal]

19 minutes ago, novacova said:

The United Nations General Assembly yesterday voted in favor of a motion calling on Israel to immediately withdraw from the Golan Heights, Judea, Samaria and the eastern half of Jerusalem.

 

 

Looks like the beginning of the end...

 

[Nick Carter icp]

11 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Looks like the beginning of the end...

 

 

   Yes, I expect the settlers in the West bank are packing  their bags as we speak .

Were they given a moving out date by the U.N ?

[Nick Carter icp]

36 minutes ago, novacova said:

The United Nations General Assembly yesterday voted in favor of a motion calling on Israel to immediately withdraw from the Golan Heights, Judea, Samaria and the eastern half of Jerusalem.

 

 

 

   The voting just concerned the Syrian Golan .

Where did the other locations come from ?

Did you add them yourself ?

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, novacova said:

The United Nations General Assembly yesterday voted in favor of a motion calling on Israel to immediately withdraw from the Golan Heights, Judea, Samaria and the eastern half of Jerusalem.

 

In reality all that's happened here is the UN resolution of 1967 has been renewed again for Syrian Golan Heights. Way off topic

[Wobblybob]

57 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Looks like the beginning of the end...

 

Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

Winston Churchill

[Bkk Brian]

Back on topic. I hope this 10 month old is part of the hostage release later today, if not things are not looking good. 

 

https://twitter.com/LTCPeterLerner/status/1729421338354340198

 

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Looking into death’s eyes without blinking. Israel will win 

 

 

For what it's worth, which isn't much, Hamas fighters seem to be positively enthusiastic about dying. I suspect the Israeli soldiers have enough sense to be less than enthusiastic about the possible fate.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

For what it's worth, which isn't much, Hamas fighters seem to be positively enthusiastic about dying. I suspect the Israeli soldiers have enough sense to be less than enthusiastic about the possible fate.

 

How do the Hamas men 'seem to be positively enthusiastic about dying'?

[Jeff the Chef]

Political scientist Dr. Norman Finkelstein explains Zionism in his own words and shares his observations on the ongoing Israel-Hamas war in Gaza.

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

How do the Hamas men 'seem to be positively enthusiastic about dying'?

They are willing to enrage an overwhelmingly powerful opponent. And while their surprise attack succeeded, it was certainly a highly risky move. And then there's that bizarre religious take on things.

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

How do the Hamas men 'seem to be positively enthusiastic about dying'?

And of course, as you well know, my comment was directed against the degradation of thought that accompanies war, as exemplified in this sentiment:

"Looking into death’s eyes without blinking. Israel will win." 

If Israel wins it will be because it has a superb military machine, not because of some hero-worshiping assertion about their attitude towards death.

[novacova]

Unbelievable lunacy 

Sky News

Thai hostage negotiator thanks Iran for support - and says Hamas justified in taking captives Lerpong Sayed told Sky News Hamas saw his negotiating team as "Thai Muslims" rather than as politicians. Thais make up the largest group of foreign nationals working in Israel and many were among those taken hostage by Hamas on 7 October.

https://news.sky.com/story/thai-hostage-negotiator-thanks-iran-for-support-and-says-hamas-justified-in-taking-captives-13018272?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter

 

[novacova]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

In reality all that's happened here is the UN resolution of 1967 has been renewed again for Syrian Golan Heights. Way off topic

Pay attention…the topic is “Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)”

 

 

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

They are willing to enrage an overwhelmingly powerful opponent. And while their surprise attack succeeded, it was certainly a highly risky move. And then there's that bizarre religious take on things.

 

That's one way of looking at things. Then again, they are mostly sacrificing civilians. To be sure, a whole lot of Hamas men died so far, but it's not like they went out of their way to confront the IDF once the fighting started in earnest. Given that they are more of a guerrilla warfare kind of force, maybe to be expected. Overall, their last weeks' strategy seems to be more about conserving forces, delaying things as much as possible - rather than some fanatic religious charge at the infidels.

 

The interviews released from interrogations of Hamas men caught on 7/10 and afterwards was rather amusing (not as far as content, which was gruesome) in as much as these were supposed to be the hyper motivated religiously and politically indoctrinated troops. Granted, everyone breaks under interrogation, given time - but this was still a fast crumbling as such things go.

 

Not underestimating their fighting skills, as I wasn't there. But from all I've seen, they were 'doing alright' up until the point where they met actual, organized resistance. From they way Hamas touted these guys, one would have expected a whole lot more. Maybe it was the drugs, who knows.

 

 

[Jingthing]

32 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Political scientist Dr. Norman Finkelstein explains Zionism in his own words and shares his observations on the ongoing Israel-Hamas war in Gaza.

 

 

 

 

That extremist doesn't represent Jews.

A Jewish Frankenstein – The Forward

Frankly, I won't even listen to that lunatic.

No surprise that he's the darling of Israel demonizers though. 

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

That extremist doesn't represent Jews.

A Jewish Frankenstein – The Forward

Frankly, I won't even listen to that lunatic.

No surprise that he's the darling of Israel demonizers though. 

The truth hurt does it?

[Morch]

28 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And of course, as you well know, my comment was directed against the degradation of thought that accompanies war, as exemplified in this sentiment:

"Looking into death’s eyes without blinking. Israel will win." 

If Israel wins it will be because it has a superb military machine, not because of some hero-worshiping assertion about their attitude towards death.

 

Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for, or what sort of things one doesn't do while fighting. With regard to many of it's more recent wars and other military operation, Israel and the IDF (or at least, parts of) were often in doubt about the righteousness of actions, justifications and so on. Not this time - the 7/10 attack provided for that, and then some.

 

On the other hand, I get the feeling (subjective, yes - reading social media, news, talking to people I know) that as far as the Palestinians/Gazans/Hamas - things are somewhat different than previous engagements. Many celebrated the 7/10 attack and atrocities, sure - but it's not like all Palestinians are blood thirsty demons or anything. Not even all of the Hamas men. And certainly Gazans are not all blind to the way Hamas (especially leadership abroad) goes on about things. Maybe will take some time (and certainly the death and destruction by Israel would have a mitigating effect) but some kind of cracks may be spreading.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

The truth hurt does it?

I would say that anyone that thinks Fink...'s views represent "the truth" has a very poor relation with reality.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

The truth hurt does it?

 

If you take the speaker to be truthful and objective - which would be a very contrived position considering his history and positions.

I'm pretty sure you had no idea who this was up until when you saw the interview, and that you did not bother checking to much about his background, history and ideas anyway. That would be in line with previous comments and links you posted earlier on these discussions.

[Bkk Brian]

37 minutes ago, novacova said:

Pay attention…the topic is “Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)”

 

 

Check again:

 

"The War in Israel
Latest developments and discussion of events in the Israel-Hamas War."

 

Since when was Hamas around in 1967? Since when were they in the Syrian Golan Heights?

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Political scientist Dr. Norman Finkelstein explains Zionism in his own words and shares his observations on the ongoing Israel-Hamas war in Gaza.

 

 

 

 

This total nut case.......................

 

Norman Finkelstein praises Holocaust denier David Irving at pro-Corbyn group meeting

https://www.thejc.com/news/norman-finkelstein-praises-holocaust-denier-david-irving-at-pro-corbyn-group-meeting-ogne1mz1

[Bkk Brian]

THEY STOLE HER VOICE Emily’s too afraid to speak after Hamas threats… she was a happy, noisy kid & now she whispers because she’s terrified

[placeholder]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Maybe so, but I think there is some value (or added value) to what one fights for, or what sort of things one doesn't do while fighting. With regard to many of it's more recent wars and other military operation, Israel and the IDF (or at least, parts of) were often in doubt about the righteousness of actions, justifications and so on. Not this time - the 7/10 attack provided for that, and then some.

 

On the other hand, I get the feeling (subjective, yes - reading social media, news, talking to people I know) that as far as the Palestinians/Gazans/Hamas - things are somewhat different than previous engagements. Many celebrated the 7/10 attack and atrocities, sure - but it's not like all Palestinians are blood thirsty demons or anything. Not even all of the Hamas men. And certainly Gazans are not all blind to the way Hamas (especially leadership abroad) goes on about things. Maybe will take some time (and certainly the death and destruction by Israel would have a mitigating effect) but some kind of cracks may be spreading.

Can you share with us exactly what is the added value in the war is fighting now? In WW2 it was about liberating Europeans from Nazism. The Korean War was and the UKraine war is about resisting invasion from foes ruled by despots. Even in other wars where the justifications were either based on delusion or deception or some mixture of both, at least there was some sort of appeal to idealism. What is adding value to Israel's campaign against Hamas? Is Israel promising to help rebuild Gaza? To pursue policies different from those it has pursued in the past?  As far as I can tell, it's about eliminating Hamas. It can be argued that Israel's plan to exterminate Hamas may be necessary, and that taking vengeance is only incidental (unconvincing), but what higher principle is moving Israelis to look " into death’s eyes without blinking."

As for conduct in war. Well, you're setting a very low bar in comparing Israel to Hamas.. Who knows what Israeli troops are up to considering that reporters are mostly banned? A few reports, like the beating of that Gazan poet get some play, but it's mostly darkness.  

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

"You can make strong moral and political arguments, but if in making those you feel like you must obscure or ignore atrocity and horror, that’s corrupt intellectually and morally. It prevents you from actually understanding the complexity of the situation which you’re attempting to speak to and in the long term will make you less effective in whatever you want to do. Out of basic humanist principles, the idea that we must close our eyes to suffering that is not ideologically useful is morally degrading to ourselves."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/11/26/magazine/phil-klay-interview.html

Yes you already posted the same thing here a couple of days ago, two or three pages back 

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

42 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

If you take the speaker to be truthful and objective - which would be a very contrived position considering his history and positions.

I'm pretty sure you had no idea who this was up until when you saw the interview, and that you did not bother checking to much about his background, history and ideas anyway. That would be in line with previous comments and links you posted earlier on these discussions.

As it happens I have read and watched many of his interviews and am of the opinion that his background, history and idea's are exactly what this conflict needs, a truthful look at reality.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes you already posted the same thing here a couple of days ago, two or three pages back 

 

 

So that's twice you apparently you see in it no relevance to your one-sideism?