Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Not all the atrocities on 7/10 were committed by Hamas, many of the crimes were committed by Palestian civilians on Israeli civilians. anti-Semitic excuses are wearing very thin now. Israel has vowed to seek out all of the disgusting animals involved with these barbaric crimes including those living the life of Riley in Turkey and Qatar or any other country they may be hiding thinking that they are safe, oh how deluded they must be!

 

 

 

Come to think of it, this poor girl has not been released yet, nobody knows if she's even alive let alone her boyfriend who was also taken.

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I see the results of a war Hamas started. Pretty much the same on every war in urban setting.

It's easy enough to post pictures without context.

 

It started on October 7th now? The level of disinformation on this site is incredible,

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It started on October 7th now? The level of disinformation on this site is incredible,

Of course the current very major outbreak started on that date. FACT.

 

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

It started on October 7th now? The level of disinformation on this site is incredible,

 

No, what's incredible is how disingenuous your posts are.

These topics are about a current situation, this instance of the conflict started on 7/10.

There is no 'disinformation', there is no denial of history - even if you try to imply so.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

And your point is.....?

 

To be clear, the photos I posted are of Germany. 

Did they have guided bombs in WW2? Your excuses for israelis bombing residential buildings are just sad.

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Only if your as thick as pigs, obviously claiming WW11 bombing as a war crime the same as in Gaza doesn't apply as it didn't come into force till October 1950.

To be clear, I am not talking about legal definitions. Following your logic, the Nazis never committed war crimes.

 

If you would be more comfortable with other words:

 

The IDF invasion of Faza is morally comparable with the Allied bombing campaign of Germany during WWII.

[Danderman123]

12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Did they have guided bombs in WW2? Your excuses for israelis bombing residential buildings are just sad.

Dead people don't care if the bombs that killed them are guided or not.

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

It started on October 7th now? The level of disinformation on this site is incredible,

The current war started on October 7, yes.

 

There was no occupation of Gaza on that date.

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Only if your as thick as pigs, obviously claiming WW11 bombing as a war crime the same as in Gaza doesn't apply as it didn't come into force till October 1950.

So the Nazis committed no war crimes?

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

It started on October 7th now? The level of disinformation on this site is incredible,

 

  Its you who is trying to spread false information by stating the war started on a different date 

[Jingthing]

17 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The current war started on October 7, yes.

 

There was no occupation of Gaza on that date.

Yes and I wouldn't call some Israeli troops being in Gaza now an occupation either. They're carrying out a war now The government has no intention to occupy Gaza. If that changes, then it would be.

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes and I wouldn't call some Israeli troops being in Gaza now an occupation either. They're carrying out a war now The government has no intention to occupy Gaza. If that changes, then it would be.

The plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians faces some internal resistance from less hard-line members of Netanyahu’s cabinet, according to Israel Hayom.

 

https://theintercept.com/2023/12/03/netanyahu-thin-gaza-population/

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

The plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians faces some internal resistance from less hard-line members of Netanyahu’s cabinet, according to Israel Hayom.

 

https://theintercept.com/2023/12/03/netanyahu-thin-gaza-population/

 

The link above is based on another article appearing in an Israeli newspaper. The original article relates that this is not so much a government plan, or even a party plan, let alone something the IDF endorses - but something Netanyahu seems to have initiated on his own. Given the USA and the EU are unlikely to support or be party to it, and not much enthusiasm on the domestic front either, unlikely it would amount to nothing more than a diplomatic debacle.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

The plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians faces some internal resistance from less hard-line members of Netanyahu’s cabinet, according to Israel Hayom.

 

https://theintercept.com/2023/12/03/netanyahu-thin-gaza-population/

Have you actually read that report in  Israel Hayom @Neeranam ?

[Danny Australia]

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets

 

Very compelling article explaining the high casualties in Gaza. Israel is relying on AI-based systems for the target creation process. They went from 50 targets a year to 100 a day.

 

“It really is like a factory. We work quickly and there is no time to delve deep into the target. The view is that we are judged according to how many targets we manage to generate.”

 

In early November, the IDF said “more than 12,000” targets in Gaza had been identified by its target administration division.

[Jeff the Chef]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

To be clear, I am not talking about legal definitions. Following your logic, the Nazis never committed war crimes.

 

If you would be more comfortable with other words:

 

The IDF invasion of Faza is morally comparable with the Allied bombing campaign of Germany during WWII.

No point following my logic ask Morch.

The Nazis lost, if they had won there would have been no war crimes, but then we would not have had a Geneva Convention.

The IDF/Israeli thugs in uniform, are no better than Hamas, except they have air and sea power, trust me you don't want to be on the ground when there is aircraft engaging ground troops, better weapons, support etc.

This isn't a war, more like "a bit of a tidy up and mowing the lawn" or if you're a Palestinian a slaughter.

[Nick Carter icp]

9 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

The IDF/Israeli thugs in uniform, are no better than Hamas,

 

   Have their been any reports of the IDF raping woman and chapping up their bodies when they are still alive and being raped ?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

51 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/01/the-gospel-how-israel-uses-ai-to-select-bombing-targets

 

Very compelling article explaining the high casualties in Gaza. Israel is relying on AI-based systems for the target creation process. They went from 50 targets a year to 100 a day.

 

“It really is like a factory. We work quickly and there is no time to delve deep into the target. The view is that we are judged according to how many targets we manage to generate.”

 

In early November, the IDF said “more than 12,000” targets in Gaza had been identified by its target administration division.

 

Hilarious, a very compelling article from the woke, fanatically left-wing, anti-British, anti-US, anti-Israel, comic, the Guardian. Was it that smug little Hamas fanboy Owen Jones ?   …… you antipodeans are easily compelled Danny.

[Jeff the Chef]

35 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Have their been any reports of the IDF raping woman and chapping up their bodies when they are still alive and being raped ?

Yep,

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Yep,

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/

 

  We are talking about this war , rather than talking about generally .

Events in this war is the topic of discussion 

[Wobblybob]

Latest news an Israeli missile strikes a doll factory and kills numerous dolls. 🤥

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

13 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Yep,

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/

 

   Israel punishes its soldiers who commit crimes .

Hamas encourages its soldiers to commit crimes and celebrate the crimes 

That is the difference between terrorists and non terrorists 

[simple1]

32 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Hilarious, a very compelling article from the woke, fanatically left-wing, anti-British, anti-US, anti-Israel, comic, the Guardian. Was it that smug little Hamas fanboy Owen Jones ?   …… you antipodeans are easily compelled Danny.

 

Rather than posting asinine commentary, read the article.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

12 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Rather than posting asinine commentary, read the article.

 

I can’t read it. I have anti-woke, and anti-Guardian security software installed on all my devices; but I’m sure it will have got you salivating into yer Tinnie.

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

38 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  We are talking about this war , rather than talking about generally .

Events in this war is the topic of discussion 

And another, more recent:

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733573

[Jeff the Chef]

5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

I can’t read it. I have anti-woke, and anti-Guardian security software installed on all my devices; but I’m sure it will have got you salivating into yer Tinnie.

 

 

Why comment then? 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

8 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

And another, more recent:

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733573

 

  Sorry , I am not going to sit here and just keep opening links that you send me .

Try writing something yourself eh ?

[Nick Carter icp]

31 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

And another, more recent:

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-733573

 

   Will you be posting any links to Hamas prosecuting its *warriors" who raped en masse on Oct 7 th ?

What action will Hamas be taking about its members who committed the war crime of raping ?

Any links to news reports about those issues ?

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Rather than posting asinine commentary, read the article.

 

The article, or rather the article its based on does a good job detailing some of the inner workings of the IDF operations centers. I would be careful accepting it as gospel (yeah...well), given the original sources political stance, and by extension the sort of people who would volunteer the information to it. To be clear, I do not argue against the details, but against the hyperbole presentation and use of loaded language.

 

There is no doubt that a significant part of Israel's campaign is about shock and awe. This was broadcasted in various statements by politicians and generals. And unless mistaken, even the 'relaxing' of constraints in the targeting process was acknowledged. The mistake some people seem to make is to treat this is another iteration of previous rounds of fighting between Israel and the Hamas. It is not. The Hamas 7/10 attack 'broke the mold', and the Israeli response is in turn way more severe. The constant comparisons to past instances is irrelevant.

 

I think highlighting the AI angle is more sensational than rational. Targets are decided according to sets of parameters and algorithms, which are controlled and can be adjusted. So as it stands now, it's a facilitating process, not one totally independent of human control. As far as I am aware, stuff like this (technologically speaking) was where things were heading for some years now, and it's not like the transition was a sharp one exactly - shifts as the technology matured and embedded. And here's one (of several, to be sure) outrageous comments - this will actually work well for Israel if and when things come to a head legally. The bonus of such a system is that everything is recorded, rational for decisions made, expected results and so on. It allows to present a rational for attack made, without need to go and pick the mind of some reserve duty officer on a specific decision made in day X of the war. This relates to my earlier comment on the reliability (IMO) of some of the people leaking the information - I would expect some of their takes to be effected by their politics (and that's ok, btw).

 

Given it's a published fact that the IDF relies heavily on legal advice at command/operations/planning levels - I would also expect that issues raised, such as knowing expected civilian casualty rates for each target (as in 'collateral damage') would be found to fall within the legal acceptable parameters. That does not necessarily make such decisions the height of morality or anything (which seems to be what the some of the quoted comments focus on). In other words, the increase in target numbers, and targets attacked does not necessarily imply that there will be more legal issues, if and when such challenges will materialize. Again, it may sound crude, but that's the way all modern armies operate - assessing civilian casualties, deciding whether this justifies the attack and so on is part and parcel of how warfare is conducted these days. So the more information available, the better the rational could be supported, as needed.

 

I will add something about 'proportionality'. This is an elusive concept at the best of times, all the more so under current circumstances. If going back to the shock and awe thing, then 'proportionality' can be interpreted not as tit-for-tat, but as a formula in which the scale is not balanced. Still a proportion, though. And this is not offered as mere word game. Consider the Hamas demanded/previously applied 'ratio of exchange' with regard to hostages. One Israeli for hundreds, a thousand, or even thousands of Palestinians. Not very 'proportional', is it? But somehow expected and accepted as a legit proposition. So, I think, it's not so much about balance - but more to do with perceptions. Who's the 'weak' side, who's the 'strong' and all that crap. But when it comes to casualties, somehow this 'exchange ratio' is not on, why? Using available figures, the current death toll ratio is more or less 10:1. That is ten dead Palestinian vs. each Israeli killed. Much lower than the hostage/prisoners 'exchange ratio'. What does it mean?

 

And while on the subject of proportionality, ratios and perceptions - various figures presented on multiple links here imply that the number of sorties carried by the IAF, the number of bomb/munitions dropped on the Gaza Strip, and the total number of Palestinian casualties are roughly similar. That would imply one bomb/sortie per casualty. I don't know what people have in mind when they talk about 'genocide', 'ethnic cleansing', 'mass murder', or 'assassination factory' (and so on) - but what Israel is doing doesn't quite seem to conform with the notions of how one goes about these things. Even if the number are off some, its still not it. A lot of dead people yes, a lot of them civilians, no argument. The descriptions applied on these topics left and right - not so much.

[anotherexpat4444]

why are the non-muslim people are joining these pro-hamas  movement .  they very well know islam dont love non-muslim