Death of spouse effect on my marriage visa?

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, connda said:

Last Wills for assets in both Thailand and your home country, Usufruct Contract or lease for land holdings, Advanced directives, open discussion between yourself and your wife regarding what to do after the death of the other spouse.  In other words?  Have a plan.

 

From personal experience, Mrs. was averse to discussing these issues - but was turned around after some of the 'horror' stories posted here conveyed, and the evil elder sister making some hopeful remarks about related issues. It's worthwhile driving the point home, and being prepared. Post-funeral is not the best time to deal with such matters anyway, so easier to have a plan to fall on.

[connda]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Having  a plan is a good idea if you have all the information that is needed to make that plan work.

 

If you don't have all the information you need, then your plan will not work.

You've been here longer than I have.  How many decades of time do you need to "find the information you need."  Not being cheeky but how long do you need?

Wills, leases, Usufruct Contracts, and what to do when you or your spouse dies have been covered in depth on TV/AN in the 15 years I've been here.

A lawyer can help you get through the process, and imho is needed to navigate creating a Usufruct and getting the Land Office to modify the land deed, and a lawyer is good to have on retainer if you or your spouse checks out and you need to go to probate.

[Mark1066]

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

 

Never spend more than you can afford on land in another person's name.

 

Why are you making assumptions? I see nothing in the OP to suggest he did this.

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

Why are you making assumptions? I see nothing in the OP to suggest he did this.

Surely a joke.

The OP is in 90,s.

Cannot afford financials for extension based on retirement.

Cannot afford home care 

Is in wheelchair for going outside.

 

Provide sensible alternatives for OP or post nothing

 

[Pouatchee]

5 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Surely a joke.

The OP is in 90,s.

Cannot afford financials for extension based on retirement.

Cannot afford home care 

Is in wheelchair for going outside.

 

Provide sensible alternatives for OP or post nothing

 

 

As in all things online/blog, we are at the mercy of what posters tell us. Thus, i take everything i read with skepticism. this guy @trubrit has done very little in regards to posting. he posted once, that i could find in his profile, last april and even then he was talking about what to do if selling his house from abroad. now.... when someone starts an op and doesnt keep it alive, i tend to think this person is a troll. 

 

dont feed the trolls

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, Pouatchee said:

keep it alive, i tend to think this person is a troll. 

Agree 100% ..

So many folk start a thread.

Well meaning folk (including myself) reply and ask for clarification for very vague OP..

Then find out OP started thread and never posted back.

They kankers

[billd766]

2 hours ago, connda said:

You've been here longer than I have.  How many decades of time do you need to "find the information you need."  Not being cheeky but how long do you need?

Wills, leases, Usufruct Contracts, and what to do when you or your spouse dies have been covered in depth on TV/AN in the 15 years I've been here.

A lawyer can help you get through the process, and imho is needed to navigate creating a Usufruct and getting the Land Office to modify the land deed, and a lawyer is good to have on retainer if you or your spouse checks out and you need to go to probate.

There are not that many lawyers, Thai or English speaking, out here in Nakhon Nowhere though I did look into it a few years ago. I wrote it all up, but I have had several changes of pc since then and I think that either the dog ate my homework or one of my pc's ate the file as I can't find it any more.

 

Fortunately I have nothing in the UK any more so it is only what I have here in Thailand.

 

The house and land is all in my wife's name and will go to our son when she dies. The pick up is old and not worth much, nobody will want my clothes, which only really leaves my mobile, tablet, pc and my tools.

 

As for an usufruct, I wouldn't want to stay here if we split up anyway.

 

One thing that is confusing me is at what age will I stop supporting our son, who is 19 and started uni at Chiang Rai in May for 3 years. He is in full time education until he is 22, but what happens if my wife dies and he is working or even if he is not working?

 

Can I still claim that I am supporting him and if so, to what age?

Edited November 25, 2023 by billd766
corrected some bad spelling

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

There are not that many lawyers, Thai or English speaking, out here in Nakhon Nowhere though I did look into it a few years ago. I wrote it all up, but I have had several changes of pc since then and I think that either the dog ate my homework or one of my pc's ate the file as I can't find it any more.

 

Fortunately I have nothing in the UK any more so it is only what I have here in Thailand.

 

The house and land is all in my wife's name and will go to our son when she dies. The pick up is old and not worth much, nobody will want my clothes, which only really leaves my mobile, tablet, pc and my tools.

 

As for an usufruct, I wouldn't want to stay here if we split up anyway.

 

One thing that is confusing me is at what age will I stop supporting our son, who is 19 and started uni at Chiang Rai in May for 3 years. He is in full time education until he is 22, but what happens if my wife dies and he is working or even if he is not working?

 

Can I still claim that I am supporting him and if so, to what age?

You can claim your son as a tax deduction, up to age 25 so presumably the support age is the same (if in study).

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

Edited November 25, 2023 by Mike Lister

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You can claim your son as a tax deduction, up to age 25 so presumably the support age is the same (if in study).

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

Thank you for that information.

 

I have always wondered what the age limit actually is, and under what circumstances.

[billd766]

20 hours ago, connda said:

You've been here longer than I have.  How many decades of time do you need to "find the information you need."  Not being cheeky but how long do you need?

Wills, leases, Usufruct Contracts, and what to do when you or your spouse dies have been covered in depth on TV/AN in the 15 years I've been here.

A lawyer can help you get through the process, and imho is needed to navigate creating a Usufruct and getting the Land Office to modify the land deed, and a lawyer is good to have on retainer if you or your spouse checks out and you need to go to probate.

I have been trawling through the deep dark bowels of my pc, and I found something like this that I posted on back in 2010. 1 or 2 posters are still current but I have no idea where the rest are.

 

I have posted it as a word document as it is 13 pages long.

 

Also the only English speaking lawyers that I could find in Kamphaeng Phet were based in Sri Lanka. There is 1 Thai lawyer I did find in KPP but the post, location and directions are all in Thai.

Visa change Death of wife.docx

[lopburi3]

As noted nothing is set in stone - most likely he would be allowed to remain in country at least until current permitted to stay and immigration does have ability to allow more either via agent or direct contact.

 

As mentioned home value might be a saving grace.

 

Move to another country, such as Philippines, which has inexpensive care available and no visa issues extending tourist entry for years might also be an option.

[FritsSikkink]

Selling the house / land early is quite a good suggestion.

[DrJack54]

9 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Selling the house / land early is quite a good suggestion.

Would need to be fire sale price.

OP stated lives in some random village. 

Very difficult to sell.

The OP is in 90,s 

Poor planning.

Also is broke. 

Thinking best option is to draw up agreement where he can live ongoing in house until curtain day.

Then home go to wife family.

Not uncommon. 

[AjarnMartin]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:33 AM, Georgealbert said:

Older thread, with top advice from the late Udonjoe

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/910961-marriage-visawife-dieswhat-happens/

 

Georgealbert, sorry to break into your message stream, but has Ubonjoe passed? You say the ‘late Udonjoe’ which means he is dead…??? If so, that is extremely sad - he has been such a stalwart source of Thai immigration advice for many years…

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, AjarnMartin said:

Georgealbert, sorry to break into your message stream, but has Ubonjoe passed? You say the ‘late Udonjoe’ which means he is dead…??? If so, that is extremely sad - he has been such a stalwart source of Thai immigration advice for many years…

Yes, sadly so, some months ago.

[FritsSikkink]

13 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Would need to be fire sale price.

OP stated lives in some random village. 

Very difficult to sell.

The OP is in 90,s 

Poor planning.

Also is broke. 

Thinking best option is to draw up agreement where he can live ongoing in house until curtain day.

Then home go to wife family.

Not uncommon. 

How will he pay for the care he needs when he doesn't have money. True that he should have started acting on this ages ago and not wait till 90 but still think selling gives him more financial freedom. Medical bills might become a problem too with this age.

[Georgealbert]

3 hours ago, AjarnMartin said:

Georgealbert, sorry to break into your message stream, but has Ubonjoe passed? You say the ‘late Udonjoe’ which means he is dead…??? If so, that is extremely sad - he has been such a stalwart source of Thai immigration advice for many years…

 

Sadly he has gone.

 

 

[Iamloki]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:20 AM, Mike Lister said:

Sorry but I don't regard your link as an authority on this subject, it's a two person law office and one is a foreigner who is not allowed to practice law in Thailand.

 

Secondly, the link only says that the spouse visa may be problematic, if the holder visits immigration, it does not say the visa ends when the spouse dies.

Mike:

1. That you not regarding the attorney in the video an authority, does not make him wrong. What are your credentials Mike?

 

2. If you re-watch the video, you will find that he says the death of the spouse invalidates the marriage visa. No wife, no basis for a marriage visa. Yes, he does suggest that it may only be problematic if immigration is visited. BUT, not getting caught is not the same as having a valid permission to stay in the Kingdom.

 

With respect Mike, I do not regard you as an authority, and would gently urge you to not give advice on matters where you are not an authority - or at least have some experience.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Iamloki said:

Mike:

1. That you not regarding the attorney in the video an authority, does not make him wrong. What are your credentials Mike?

 

2. If you re-watch the video, you will find that he says the death of the spouse invalidates the marriage visa. No wife, no basis for a marriage visa. Yes, he does suggest that it may only be problematic if immigration is visited. BUT, not getting caught is not the same as having a valid permission to stay in the Kingdom.

 

With respect Mike, I do not regard you as an authority, and would gently urge you to not give advice on matters where you are not an authority - or at least have some experience.

Go read the link to ubonjoe comments on this subject, posted by a previous poster. Ubonjoe was an expert, he was married to an immigration officer. Read those things, satisfy yourself my advice was was correct.

[CecilM]

Sorry to hear that.

You are still mentally sharp; and I assume so is your wife (who would be motivated to help in whatever way she physically can).
 

So make effort to set the wheels in motion now. Ideas:

1) Go to the bank and get a 400k mortgage on your house.

2) Find any other way to get hold of 400k (sell jewelry/watches or other possessions, bring stuff to pawn shops, make the hard decisions now to liquidate whatever is needed).

3) Do a split of mortgage and selling stuff. 

So you have the option to use your 400k plus another 400k to go the 800k retirement visa route. 

4) Go with the Mrs to immigration and discuss. This is the only way you get reliable answers. Else, go alone.

5) Contact some agents and discuss options to switch visa. They can help. 

Good luck. :)

[crazykopite]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:13 AM, Pouatchee said:

 

technically 'no'. it is all in the hands of immi... per the link i sent

 

for renewal you cannot continue on marriage and that is a given. if you dont have enough money then your best bet is to get an agent and pay 15 000 bht for a retirement visa depending on where you are and get a visa through them  

 

Contact [email protected] a lovely individual who will assist you in every way word of warning even though it’s your wife getting her money out of her bank account is a nightmare unless you have it as a joint account . My prayers are with your wife !

[DrJack54]

7 minutes ago, crazykopite said:

Contact [email protected] a lovely individual who will assist you in every way word of warning even though it’s your wife getting her money out of her bank account is a nightmare unless you have it as a joint account . My prayers are with your wife !

The OP can change to extension based on retirement with use of an agent.

Seems to me the most sensible and perhaps only option.

Broke

Confined to wheelchair out of house.

Wife advanced cancer.

 

[bigt3116]

On 11/25/2023 at 6:55 PM, billd766 said:

One thing that is confusing me is at what age will I stop supporting our son, who is 19 and started uni at Chiang Rai in May for 3 years. He is in full time education until he is 22, but what happens if my wife dies and he is working or even if he is not working?

 

the dependent person is a child, he/she

must not be married, reside as a member of the referred family and must not be over 20 years of age.

 

chrome-extension://gphandlahdpffmccakmbngmbjnjiiahp/https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/8.A-PERSON-WHO-HAVING-RESIDENCY-IN-THAILAND-NON-O.pdf

[Kinok Farang]

What a well written although sad post that will have given a lot of old codgers on here,food for thought.

At a time like this you will find out who your real friends are here.You are going to need help from people close to you,both Thai and Farang.

Good Luck Lad.

[lopburi3]

1.  Cancer - even advanced stages - does not always equate to early death.  Even two people with exactly same condition may be years apart.  But good you are planning options - even if the only sure thing is that nothing is for sure.

2.  Does wife have family that can/will help you?  Even a new marriage to keep that extension option might be a consideration.

3.  Is home free and clear-are you sure?

4.  Sale of home is often slow here as most prefer to build new (with new spirits).

5.  Have no idea of your personal financials but you mention pension - if from UK believe for some it is advantage to live in PI for getting increase - and as mentioned visa is not an issue there (although there are small costs involved with extending stay).  But just offer that as last resort as you do not want to return UK per post.

6.  If you can add any additional information it may help posters be more specific.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

 

the dependent person is a child, he/she

must not be married, reside as a member of the referred family and must not be over 20 years of age.

 

chrome-extension://gphandlahdpffmccakmbngmbjnjiiahp/https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/8.A-PERSON-WHO-HAVING-RESIDENCY-IN-THAILAND-NON-O.pdf

How does that apply to my 19 year old son who is in full time education at Uni at Chiang Rai and not living with us 500 km away? I support him by paying his living costs, food rent, mobile etc as he is not working? 

 

That would apply to a few people I think.

Edited November 27, 2023 by billd766
added extra text

[khunPer]

On 11/25/2023 at 3:53 AM, trubrit said:

I'm  nearly 90 years old and it looks like my Thai wife is going to pass away before me, having just received warning of having advanaced stage cancer.I can;t get a firm answer from my local  immi office can anyone give me factual advice .

Does her death have any effect on my current visa or can it go on to present expiry date?What then do I do for its renewal.I have money in bank enough for marriage but no way could i make it for retirement visa , obviously another marriage is out of the question at my age and perhaps i should also mention I am disabled confined to a wheelchair for  going out.. also needing help around the house, my pension wouldn't cover  hiring a helper .The house is in my wifes name and I understand I have a year to sell it, what happens if my visa expires during this period .?

going back to Uk is out ot  the question  Have nothing or no one there, even if I could make the journey. I am hoping  for my own demise first but apart from the arthrittis I am robust health.Anyone have first hand knowledge or can put me in touch with where to get it . Thanks a lot. Val

Sorry to read about your problems.

 

One's permission to stay in Thailand based on marriage will be void when the spouse dies (or get divorced). As others have mentioned, there are however solutions, especially the route with extension based on retirement or due to health.

 

You might be able to use the so-called combination method, where part of the annual 800k baht deposit is monthly retirement transfers, and the remaining part a bank deposit of not less than 400k baht; 400k baht being the minimum for a bank deposit. Your monthly retirement pensions need to be 33,400 baht each month – be aware of eventual changes in currency exchange rate and transfer fees – if you have a 400k baht bank deposit. The higher bank deposit, the less monthly transfer. Another poster mentioned mortgage as a possibility; revenue from sale of property might also be a possibility.

 

Yes, you – or rather the estate – have one year to sell property and divide the revenue. If there is no Thai will you will be eligible to half of the estate. Preferably always make a will in Thailand if you wish your property to be divided separately from the Thai law. To my knowledge you (the estate) normally have one year to sell or transfer property. I specific mention transfer, if there are some registered "servitude" like right of habitation; which can give you permission to still live the house. In such a case, financial gain might be limited, as a habitation right can be living for free.

Quote (from above link in the text):

The grantee of the right of habitation does not pay rent to the grantor. If there is rental payment made, the matter becomes a tenancy. A right of habitation may be created for either a specific period of time or for the lifetime of the grantee. In case the rights are granted for a specific time period, the law states that such a period may not exceed 30 years; if a longer period is fixed, it shall be enforceable for only 30 years. The grant may be renewed for a period not exceeding 30 years from the time of renewal. Lastly, the right of habitation is not transferable by way of inheritance.

[GinBoy2]

Awful situation and I feel for you.

 

But as many have stated before options are limited. 

 

This happened to a friend when his wife died in a traffic accident. 

 

Basically he was OK up to the expiration of his current spousal extension, after that he had no option but to convert to a retirement extension.

 

I think the recent post from Dan with the lady who missed her reporting date while basically dying from cancer sort of illustrates that the Thai immigration system doesn't really bend for compassionate grounds.

 

The OP doesn't mention it, but at 90, I hope he has a Thai family who can help him through this, or it's going to be pretty bleak

[pacovl46]

Sorry about your wife!

 

You could move into an apartment and sell the house now while she's still alive and use the money from the sale for the retirement visa. 

[MangoKorat]

This should be a wake up call to anyone currently living in Thailand or planning to do so.  When working out how much you need to make the move - take account of this possible situation plus what about a serious future illness? - both could lead to you having to return home.

 

That is especially pertinent to those who've 'burned their bridges' by selling everything they own in their home country.