Iran says it helped broker release of Thais held in Gaza

[billd766]

4 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Indeed... its been mentioned numerous times.... 

 

What would happen if Hamas gave up their Arms?...  Answer: Peace.

What would happen if Israel gave up its Arms?... Answer: there would be no Israel.

And if Hamas gave up their weapons there would be no Hamas in Gaza and no Gaza.

 

The Palestinians are already in one of the largest prison camps in the world, all 2 million plus of them and yet Netanyahu wants to exterminate every last Palestinian man, woman and child. What is worse than wanting to do it is that he IS doing it.

 

It matters not to him what the rest of the world cares or thinks about about, it is all about him and his war mongering cabinet.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

And if Hamas gave up their weapons there would be no Hamas in Gaza and no Gaza.

 

The Palestinians are already in one of the largest prison camps in the world, all 2 million plus of them and yet Netanyahu wants to exterminate every last Palestinian man, woman and child. What is worse than wanting to do it is that he IS doing it.

 

It matters not to him what the rest of the world cares or thinks about about, it is all about him and his war mongering cabinet.

 

@billd766

 

More of your baseless nonsense - why would there be 'no Gaza'? Usually, Israel does not attack the Gaza Strip without being provoked by Hamas. Israel did not attempt wholesale destruction of the Gaza Strip even on this occasion.

 

The Gaza Strip is not a 'prison camp' other than in propaganda posts. The blockade on the Gaza Strip was not always in place, and is directly related to the Hamas's actions and agenda.

 

Netanyahu, to the best of my knowledge, did not express an actual intent or wish to 'exterminate every last Palestinian man, woman and child'. This is also not happening now, other than in your imagination.

 

You grasp of events seems to be getting more and more unhinged.

[richard_smith237]

3 hours ago, Thorgal said:

There's still a Hamas leadership in Qatar, not so far from Iran by the way if you need a direct communication line...

 

Indeed...    Iran pulling the strings of Hamas with financial support and also plenty of backing from Russia... 

Plays perfectly into the hands of the 'distraction' from Ukraine...   How do we think it was possible for Hamas to get hold of high-tech weapons and the know-how circumnavigate the Israeli air defences without Russia's help ????...

... Iran more than happy to play along... 'the enemy of my enemy.... '

 

 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Indeed...    Iran pulling the strings of Hamas with financial support and also plenty of backing from Russia... 

Plays perfectly into the hands of the 'distraction' from Ukraine...   How do we think it was possible for Hamas to get hold of high-tech weapons and the know-how circumnavigate the Israeli air defences without Russia's help ????...

... Iran more than happy to play along... 'the enemy of my enemy.... '

 

 

 

I don't think there's any proof (or direct claim, even) that Russia supplied Hamas with arms. Russian arms can be purchased on the black market or can be received from various state actors.

 

As for 'circumnavigate the Israeli air defenses' - no idea what you're on about. The only relevant thing that happened were some gliders coming over the border, that's not something very hard to do, and it's not like Israel got a whole lot of air-defense assets (in this regard) on this border to begin with. Again, the claim that Russia aided Hamas with intel is something you'll need to support - not aware of it being seriously made by any serious source.

[richard_smith237]

16 minutes ago, billd766 said:

And if Hamas gave up their weapons there would be no Hamas in Gaza and no Gaza.

 

The Palestinians are already in one of the largest prison camps in the world, all 2 million plus of them and yet Netanyahu wants to exterminate every last Palestinian man, woman and child. What is worse than wanting to do it is that he IS doing it.

 

It matters not to him what the rest of the world cares or thinks about about, it is all about him and his war mongering cabinet.

 

Israeli force is has always been purely retaliatory... its been swift, barbaric, extreme, exacting and excessive...   I dont think we (or I at least) are supporting the extent of response.... nevertheless, its a sad state of affairs that extreme responses are necessary in response to terrorism. 

 

If Palestine wanted peace, wouldn't they be prepared to discuss solutions and negotiate ??? (3x No's ring a bell ?)

How many times has Palestine rejected two state solutions ?

The closest they ever got was the Olso Accord and PLO denouncing terrorism... since then ???...  Hamas and terrorism. 

 

While I strongly support the innocents of Palestine and a two state solution, the people the Palestinians have not been permitted to vote on it...  Why not ???? - because they are led by a terror organisation that wont allow them to.

 

 

 

And you are very very wrong (IMO of course)... IF Hamas gave up their weapons and the Palestinians accepted a two state solution why would Israel have any want to get rid of regular Palestinians...  its only Hamas then want rid of (and where do we think many of the ISIL terrorists went to ????)... 

 

The battle for land has been taken over by religious fanatics and its become an Islamic crusade. 

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Israeli force is has always been purely retaliatory... its been swift, barbaric, extreme, exacting and excessive...   I dont think we (or I at least) are supporting the extent of response.... nevertheless, its a sad state of affairs that extreme responses are necessary in response to terrorism. 

 

If Palestine wanted peace, wouldn't they be prepared to discuss solutions and negotiate ??? (3x No's ring a bell ?)

How many times has Palestine rejected two state solutions ?

The closest they ever got was the Olso Accord and PLO denouncing terrorism... since then ???...  Hamas and terrorism. 

 

While I strongly support the innocents of Palestine and a two state solution, the people the Palestinians have not been permitted to vote on it...  Why not ???? - because they are led by a terror organisation that wont allow them to.

 

 

 

And you are very very wrong (IMO of course)... IF Hamas gave up their weapons and the Palestinians accepted a two state solution why would Israel have any want to get rid of regular Palestinians...  its only Hamas then want rid of (and where do we think many of the ISIL terrorists went to ????)... 

 

The battle for land has been taken over by religious fanatics and its become an Islamic crusade. 

 

 

 

 

 

The PA nominally supports a two-state solution. Israeli right-wing governments - not so much. Hamas is not into it either (before the resident troll chimes in: the new version of the Hamas Charter does accept a Palestinian State, but does not recognize and Israeli one, and sees the acceptance as a step in the right way toward 'river to the sea' etc.). So in effect, pretty much all involved parties are not that much into it.

 

The Palestinians are not 'led' by Hamas. Hamas hold reign in the Gaza Strip, not in the West Bank. Palestinian leadership has been effectively split for years now.

 

 

[lordgrinz]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

I'm sure you'd like that, and maybe (some) Israelis would too - in reality Israel cannot effectively take on Iran without risking grave results. Even Hezbollah would be a bit of a tall order.

The only reason Iran wasn't dealt with earlier, is the US stopping them, we should have told them to do whatever they felt they needed to, and this situation wouldn't even be happening.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

The only reason Iran wasn't dealt with earlier, is the US stopping them, we should have told them to do whatever they felt they needed to, and this situation wouldn't even be happening.

 

Maybe that straightforward in your imagination, in reality - much harder than that, and with almost certain negative consequences (which you do not acknowledge).

[lordgrinz]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Maybe that straightforward in your imagination, in reality - much harder than that, and with almost certain negative consequences (which you do not acknowledge).

 

Iran is nothing but a paper tiger, no real airforce, no real navy, so not sure where you are going with this? Israel if it wanted to could wipe Iran off the face of the map.

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

How did Iran help take the hostages?

Is this a trick question? Is it your position Iran does not help hamas? 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Iran is nothing but a paper tiger, no real airforce, no real navy, so not sure where you are going with this? Israel if it wanted to could wipe Iran off the face of the map.

 

Another keyboard general arises....

 

Iran got quite an arsenal of missiles, drones, UAV's and so on perfectly able to hit Israel. Multiple times.And if Iran was cornered, then Iran's proxies would be unleashed as well - Hezbollah. the Houthis, Iraqi militias. All with similar capabilities (and one of them right on Israel's doorstep).

 

Israel's means of detecting and intercepting such attacks are formidable, but not omnipotent. Given that Israel is pretty small, this could go very badly, very quickly. There is no serious Israeli source I'm aware of that discounts these threats the way you do.

 

As for Israel's capacity to damage Iran - you're exaggerating. Even if, somehow, all of Israel's relevant fighter planes and long range drones made it to Iran and dropped their load, it would maybe cripple Iran some, but not destroy it or prevent the retaliation. Then there's the question of getting back home - easier said than done.

 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is this a trick question? Is it your position Iran does not help hamas? 

 

Help Hamas is one thing. Help take the hostages is a more specific claim.

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Another keyboard general arises....

 

Iran got quite an arsenal of missiles, drones, UAV's and so on perfectly able to hit Israel. Multiple times.And if Iran was cornered, then Iran's proxies would be unleashed as well - Hezbollah. the Houthis, Iraqi militias. All with similar capabilities (and one of them right on Israel's doorstep).

 

Israel's means of detecting and intercepting such attacks are formidable, but not omnipotent. Given that Israel is pretty small, this could go very badly, very quickly. There is no serious Israeli source I'm aware of that discounts these threats the way you do.

 

As for Israel's capacity to damage Iran - you're exaggerating. Even if, somehow, all of Israel's relevant fighter planes and long range drones made it to Iran and dropped their load, it would maybe cripple Iran some, but not destroy it or prevent the retaliation. Then there's the question of getting back home - easier said than done.

 

 

You way underestimate the firepower and capabilities of Israel, I remember that happening once before, it didn't go well for the last group who made that mistake either. Let's not even get into the advanced weaponry we have handed Israel over the years (and its a formidable list!), they even have their own custom F35I's, but you know they are 100 times more powerful then they were the last time Islam decided to attack Israel. I would hate to also corner Israel, that would be one huge mistake with estimates of 80-400 Nuclear weapons at their disposal. If i were their opponents, I would go the peace route and stop this "Israel has to die" nonsense.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

You way underestimate the firepower and capabilities of Israel, I remember that happening once before, it didn't go well for the last group who made that mistake either. Let's not even get into the advanced weaponry we have handed Israel over the years (and its a formidable list!), they even have their own custom F35I's, but you know they are 100 times more powerful then they were the last time Islam decided to attack Israel. I would hate to also corner Israel, that would be one huge mistake with estimates of 80-400 Nuclear weapons at their disposal. If i were their opponents, I would go the peace route and stop this "Israel has to die" nonsense.

 

I have no idea what 'last group' you refer to, or how this applies.

 

Israel currently have about 40 F-35's. That's not nearly enough to do the sort of damage you're talking about. And again, assuming a return journey - a tall order.

 

I'm not aware of any time 'Islam' decided to attack Israel. Arab countries did. Various terrorist organizations did. Islam as a whole? Nope.

 

Doubt that Israel plans to nuke anyone, or that the world (or even the USA) is cool with that.

 

And to remind, this line of conversation did not start with 'cornering' Israel, but with your assertion that Israel could take on Iran (apparently with ease).

 

 

[lordgrinz]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

And to remind, this line of conversation did not start with 'cornering' Israel, but with your assertion that Israel could take on Iran (apparently with ease).

 

Which they can and will, Iran is not going to be allowed to keep funneling weapons to terrorist groups unabated, you'd be naive to believe Israel will just sit back and let that continue to happen. I would expect Israel to bomb Iranian nuclear and military sites in the future, probably after they finish mopping up what's left of Hamas and Hezbollah fighters. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by lordgrinz

[Yellowtail]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Help Hamas is one thing. Help take the hostages is a more specific claim.

Is it? Are they helping hamas build libraries? What is it they help hamas do? Hamas is a terrorist organization. By funding them, you are helping them terrorize. Seems clear enough to me. 

 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Which they can and will, Iran is not going to be allowed to keep funneling weapons to terrorist groups unabated, you'd be naive to believe Israel will just sit back and let that continue to happen. I would expect Israel to bomb Iranian nuclear and military sites in the future, probably after they finish mopping up what's left of Hamas and Hezbollah fighters. 

 

I should expect you to support this with anything other than hot air, but I don't.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Is it? Are they helping hamas build libraries? What is it they help hamas do? Hamas is a terrorist organization. By funding them, you are helping them terrorize. Seems clear enough to me. 

 

 

 

Yeah, but you often go for simplistic reasoning, so that's not saying a whole lot.

By the same account, the USA is responsible for every wrong Israel (or any other country who every got a single USD worth of Aid) does.

That's not how it works.

 

It's not a zero sum game, Iran aids the Hamas - sure. Does it mean it's involved or implicated in everything Hamas does? Not so much.

On the now locked previous main topic, there was at least one link provided to Iran's comments in response to Hamas beseeching more help and involvement in the current situation. Basically the response was 'you're on your own'. Same thing (more or less) from Hezbollah.

[lordgrinz]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I should expect you to support this with anything other than hot air, but I don't.

 

What hot air? They have all the capabilities to handle Iran, what exactly does Iran have? Do they even have an functioning airforce? In fact, do they even have a single fighter jet flying? Their navy? LOL those little boats they send out to harass shipping lanes is not going to cut it. Then you mention Drones, if thats their only form of defense they should probably throw the towel in now.

Edited November 27, 2023 by lordgrinz

[Morch]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

What hot air? They have all the capabilities to handle Iran, what exactly does Iran have? Do they even have an functioning airforce? In fact, do they even have a single fighter jet flying? Their navy? LOL those little boats they send out to harass shipping lanes is not going to cut it. Then you mention Drones, if thats their only form of defense they should probably thrown the towel in now.

 

You claimed the same earlier and I have addressed your comments. Simply repeating the same again is pointless.

 

Iran does not need an air force, of jets to get back at Israel. They managed just fine without vs. Saudi Arabia not too long ago.

 

You still don't get it - Israel cannot wage a lengthy aerial campaign vs. Iran. The distances decide this, same goes for all them countries and air spaces that need to be traversed. It could carry either a single massive attack (with expected losses) which will have a limited effect (owing, again to distance and operational limitations) - or a series of limited drone/UAV/missile attacks which would (again) be somewhat limited in number and damage done.

 

And any attack on Iran would undoubtedly result in a counter-strike. You seem reluctant to address that, or claim (based on what?) there's no defensive issue as far as Israel goes.

 

So, as said....hot air.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Israeli force is has always been purely retaliatory... its been swift, barbaric, extreme, exacting and excessive...   I dont think we (or I at least) are supporting the extent of response.... nevertheless, its a sad state of affairs that extreme responses are necessary in response to terrorism. 

 

If Palestine wanted peace, wouldn't they be prepared to discuss solutions and negotiate ??? (3x No's ring a bell ?)

How many times has Palestine rejected two state solutions ?

The closest they ever got was the Olso Accord and PLO denouncing terrorism... since then ???...  Hamas and terrorism. 

 

While I strongly support the innocents of Palestine and a two state solution, the people the Palestinians have not been permitted to vote on it...  Why not ???? - because they are led by a terror organisation that wont allow them to.

 

 

 

And you are very very wrong (IMO of course)... IF Hamas gave up their weapons and the Palestinians accepted a two state solution why would Israel have any want to get rid of regular Palestinians...  its only Hamas then want rid of (and where do we think many of the ISIL terrorists went to ????)... 

 

The battle for land has been taken over by religious fanatics and its become an Islamic crusade. 

 

 

 

 

If you were in Gaza and saw the dead body of a Palestinian man woman or child, could tell if the body was a Hamas terrorist or not?

 

1,200 Israelis were killed on October 7th. How many Palestinians have been killed, injured or missing by the IDF since that time.

 

Enough slaughter of innocents on both sides is more than enough, but Netanyahu has still not satisfied his blood lust and he wants to kill every Hamas supporter.

 

Nobody seems to be able to stop him or control him.

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You claimed the same earlier and I have addressed your comments. Simply repeating the same again is pointless.

 

Iran does not need an air force, of jets to get back at Israel. They managed just fine without vs. Saudi Arabia not too long ago.

 

You still don't get it - Israel cannot wage a lengthy aerial campaign vs. Iran. The distances decide this, same goes for all them countries and air spaces that need to be traversed. It could carry either a single massive attack (with expected losses) which will have a limited effect (owing, again to distance and operational limitations) - or a series of limited drone/UAV/missile attacks which would (again) be somewhat limited in number and damage done.

 

And any attack on Iran would undoubtedly result in a counter-strike. You seem reluctant to address that, or claim (based on what?) there's no defensive issue as far as Israel goes.

 

So, as said....hot air.

 

Saudi Arabia is not Israel! And a counterstrike of long range Iranian drones? Come on, the odds of that having any effect, is about NILL. They have no Airforce, so their won't be any fighter or bombers heading towards Israel. Then you are expecting to shoot down F35I's returning to Israel with what exactly? 

 

Yes, you are blowing a lot of hot air.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

If you were in Gaza and saw the dead body of a Palestinian man woman or child, could tell if the body was a Hamas terrorist or not?

 

1,200 Israelis were killed on October 7th. How many Palestinians have been killed, injured or missing by the IDF since that time.

 

Enough slaughter of innocents on both sides is more than enough, but Netanyahu has still not satisfied his blood lust and he wants to kill every Hamas supporter.

 

Nobody seems to be able to stop him or control him.

 

@billd766

 

Israel provides accurate details and figures regarding it's casualties.

Hamas does not, preferring to lump them all together and inflate numbers as much as possible.

You do not have issues with that, and feign ignorance.

 

You constantly go on about Netanyahu. Not much condemnations for Hamas leadership, or offers they stop the fighting.

Transparent, is what you are.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Morch

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Saudi Arabia is not Israel! And a counterstrike of long range Iranian drones? Come on, the odds of that having any effect, is about NILL. They have no Airforce, so their won't be any fighter or bombers heading towards Israel. Then you are expecting to shoot down F35I's returning to Israel with what exactly? 

 

Yes, you are blowing a lot of hot air.

 

Saudi Arabia got top of the line air-defense systems. It wasn't enough to stop Iran.

 

A counterstrike of drones and missiles could do quite a lot of damage, at a relatively low cost for the attacker. And there could be multiple attacks, not just a single one. That's without factoring in Hezbollah or them guys at Yemen landing a hand. Given Israel is rather crowded and small, it doesn't take much to hit something. You seem way more confident about it that Israeli generals are. Guess you think you know better.

 

Iran got some decent air defense systems, especially around strategic sites. It's also expected to receive a major upgrade from Russia in the near future.

Again, your confidence that attacking Iran is a walk in the park does not reflect Israeli military thinking on this. Never read a single serious commentary even close to what you posted.

 

No, I'm being realistic - and you can't handle it with facts.

[daveAustin]

'Iran says' lol. All they do is exacerbate. Great people, shyster government.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, daveAustin said:

'Iran says' lol. All they do is exacerbate. Great people, shyster government.

 

But apparently it did do that.

As for the people vs. government comment - guess it applies almost universally.

[MrJ2U]

Iran and the filthy terrorists are one in the same.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

24 minutes ago, billd766 said:

If you were in Gaza and saw the dead body of a Palestinian man woman or child, could tell if the body was a Hamas terrorist or not?

 

I dont know why regular Palestinians would be spitting on one of their own... Yet there have been videos circulating of them spitting on the dead Jewish German girl as she was paraded through the street.

 

24 minutes ago, billd766 said:

1,200 Israelis were killed on October 7th. How many Palestinians have been killed, injured or missing by the IDF since that time.

 

More importantly, how many Palestinians were killed by IDF in the year before October 7th ???... 

Israels actions are always retaliatory. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Enough slaughter of innocents on both sides is more than enough, but Netanyahu has still not satisfied his blood lust and he wants to kill every Hamas supporter.

 

I agree with this statment, but would remove 'blood lust'...   many in the west felt the same about the Daesh.

 

 

24 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Nobody seems to be able to stop him or control him.

 

Why is that the Western Leaders do not want to control him ? 

 

Could it be that they are privy to intelligence and not just a mix of media misinforming everyone ?

 

 

Back in 2014 weapons (rockets) were found in UNRWA schools...   Hamas using human sheilds.

 

Even with your bias, is could you accuse IDF of using human shields ???  the only argument you could have is to argue 'fake news'... 

 

Its starting to appear as though you are a Hamas supporter...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gknrd]

Well, Thailand should open up and give them 90 day free visa's. Free retirement visas .  Be able to buy land and businesses in Thailand. 

The south of Thailand should be granted it's independance. And free for all Muslims to enter.  

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

The PA nominally supports a two-state solution. Israeli right-wing governments - not so much. Hamas is not into it either (before the resident troll chimes in: the new version of the Hamas Charter does accept a Palestinian State, but does not recognize and Israeli one, and sees the acceptance as a step in the right way toward 'river to the sea' etc.). So in effect, pretty much all involved parties are not that much into it.

 

The Palestinians are not 'led' by Hamas. Hamas hold reign in the Gaza Strip, not in the West Bank. Palestinian leadership has been effectively split for years now.

 

Thats...  and yep, I agree...   We don't see IDF attacking in other Palestinian areas, because they don't need to because Hamas are not orchestrating their attacks from there and using the civilian population as human shields. 

 

 

This issue is polarising the stupid...   it seems if we're against against Hamas then we're supporting the IDF ergo we are against Palestinian people...  this is not the case... 

... its possible to feel very strongly for the plight of the Palestinians while abhorring the actions of terrorists from Gaza.

... at the same time its also very possible to support the Palestinians need for human rights and their own safe land while condemning the October 7th slaughter.