The Problem With EVs

[HighPriority]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Some of us are infinitely stocked up, until the sun goes out...

That’s when the ev hobgoblins come out… 😱

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

Firstly, I think a key component of owning an ev at present is having access to solar power, it massively tilts the economics and practicality in your favor.

Secondly, read this very short very recent story about range

 

https://thedriven.io/2023/12/15/record-broken-as-ev-enthusiast-rocks-around-australia-in-just-10-days/amp/?fbclid=IwAR3rh7VQ9tu9hRtdLZByZSxv7XN5Q5QLdNwJABfYKeVYUaXeL6Wt1I7BZT8_aem_AZsr3qVzvJenwiaGIqgGlOdTeFocJRkMjg4L_p8sf69ZjxrbhUXMay6pKYFUBRHRiaY

That's definitely location dependent.  In TH, not really that important, as the cost to drive 20k kms a year, (local driving) charging/using MEA/PEA at home, is less than ฿13,000 @ ฿5/kWh, which most wouldn't pay that rate.

 

<฿13k vs ฿48.5 for petrol (91 @ ฿34/L) ***

Still very nice savings, ฿35k over petrol.

Another ฿13k is nice if having solar.

 

*** actual numbers from MG ZS EV vs ICE

as we owned both.

 

Saw that news-blip about AU, pretty cool.  Here in TH, we average about 80 kph, on the highways, when out & about, keeping to 90-110 kph, when possible.

 

Very few real roadways without traffic signals & cross traffic.

[josephbloggs]

31 minutes ago, tgw said:

my mom and dad live in a place where the next hospital is 30 minutes away, sometimes there are storms and electricity is repaired after 2 or 3 days.

 

another huge disadvantage are the downtimes. I occasionally drive 1400 Km, an EV would add significant time to the trip, possibly causing additional costs for a hotel and food stop.

 

Guess what, an EV is probably not right for your mum and dad, or you. That is totally fine, I don't know how many times I (and others) have said EVs are not suitable for everyone.

There are rational reasons why they might not be suited to a particular person's needs or lifestyle, no one disputes that. But people get annoyed when anti-EV posters make up ludicrous reasons to justify their mindset: "what if my boss calls me to drive immediately 300kms to a meeting, what happens when the motorway is unexpectedly closed and you are diverted tens of kilometres through deserted forest, what if you rent one but the previous renter smashed up the battery pack, what if you stop at a charger and there is no mobile phone signal" etc. Those kind of posts are rightly responded to and ridiculed.

BTW where do your parents live that they get regular storms that take out electricity for 2-3 days, rural Africa?

[Bandersnatch]

45 minutes ago, Lee65 said:

 

Showing your true colors Bandersnatch.

 

 

Why don’t you join a scuba instructor’s discussion and start telling them all how diving works.

 

When they ask you how many dives you’ve logged and you reply with “I’ve done a bit of snorkelling” they will call you an idiot and tell you to piss off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HighPriority]

Here in rural Darwin our power supply is fairly dodgy by western standards.

A couple of times each wet season we’ll lose power for an hour or two, after a cyclone 5 years ago it was out for 3 days in my neighborhood and a mate was in the dark for a week.

[Bandersnatch]

5 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

Here in rural Darwin our power supply is fairly dodgy by western standards.

A couple of times each wet season we’ll lose power for an hour or two, after a cyclone 5 years ago it was out for 3 days in my neighborhood and a mate was in the dark for a week.

 

I have solar and use my EV for extra backup

 

 

 

[HighPriority]

If I had the infrastructure I’d be doing the same.

[tgw]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

Firstly, I think a key component of owning an ev at present is having access to solar power, it massively tilts the economics and practicality in your favor.

Secondly, read this very short very recent story about range

 

https://thedriven.io/2023/12/15/record-broken-as-ev-enthusiast-rocks-around-australia-in-just-10-days/amp/?fbclid=IwAR3rh7VQ9tu9hRtdLZByZSxv7XN5Q5QLdNwJABfYKeVYUaXeL6Wt1I7BZT8_aem_AZsr3qVzvJenwiaGIqgGlOdTeFocJRkMjg4L_p8sf69ZjxrbhUXMay6pKYFUBRHRiaY

 

err... the driver said "you’ll need two drivers and you almost have to drive 24/7,” Murphy told The Driven.

(quoted from the page you linked)

 

???

is your post a joke ?

[tgw]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Some of us are infinitely stocked up, until the sun goes out...

 

how do you transport your stock ?

 

[tgw]

53 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

 

Guess what, an EV is probably not right for your mum and dad, or you. That is totally fine, I don't know how many times I (and others) have said EVs are not suitable for everyone.

There are rational reasons why they might not be suited to a particular person's needs or lifestyle, no one disputes that. But people get annoyed when anti-EV posters make up ludicrous reasons to justify their mindset: "what if my boss calls me to drive immediately 300kms to a meeting, what happens when the motorway is unexpectedly closed and you are diverted tens of kilometres through deserted forest, what if you rent one but the previous renter smashed up the battery pack, what if you stop at a charger and there is no mobile phone signal" etc. Those kind of posts are rightly responded to and ridiculed.

BTW where do your parents live that they get regular storms that take out electricity for 2-3 days, rural Africa?

 

France !

some people would say it qualifies as "rural Africa" by some aspects.

 

regarding the rest of your post, I'm all for electric vehicles where it makes sense. 

I don't use the car much anyway, often 2 or 3 weeks without using it, but when I need it, there is no alternative.

Another question is whether it makes sense economically to leave the car charging for 3 weeks without using it.

 

If governments were really serious about EV, they would subsidise car sharing through car rental companies, making sure the cost of use does not come more expensive than owning a highly efficient 15 year old ICE car.

[JBChiangRai]

51 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

how do you transport your stock ?

 

 

Through wires, it's electrickery

[Photoguy21]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:22 PM, josephbloggs said:

Range anxiety is real. I don't own an EV but I borrowed one for three days for a road trip. I was constantly wondering if the readout was accurate, but actually it was amazingly accurate. (You enter your destination and it tells you how much battery/range you will have when you arrive and also how much you would have left if you chose to drive straight back.). It was a Volvo, not a Tesla, I don't know anything about them exaggerating - what my car showed was accurate. However it all depends on driving style and other factors, just like you never seem to get the mpg advertised. It's on the buyer and how you drive.

If you are contantly doing long journeys, or can't charge at home, then an EV is probably not for you. If you read the article you will see the stats - in the UK 99% of car journeys are less than 100 miles.
 

 

No it isn't at all, that is just not true. Have you heard of BYD?  I will likely be switching to a BYD Seal on my next purchase - top of the range performance model - and it will be the cheapest car I have bought for myself for about 20 years.
 

 

Partly true. However when I drove an EV I used PlugShare and was surprised by the density of charging stations in Thailand. If you are not looking for them you don't notice them. Definitely not a concern in Thailand right now although it remains to be seen if the infrastructure keeps up with sales (which are going through the roof).

 

That remains to be seen. Imagine you keep a car for ten years and your battery has degraded by 20% - it still has value. And in ten years time batteries will likely be much much cheaper than they are now.

A question for you: did you read any of the articles before posting? They cover most of your "concerns" backed up by data.

I am sure some of the EV owners on here (as mentioned, I am not one of them) will chime in with real world experience.

To reply to you:

I. It was Tesla as well being investigated

2. The batteries are a higher risk of bursting into flame

3. The second hand EV market in Europe and the USA shows EV's not being purchased with significant numbers building up to the point some dealers will not accept EV's

4. Yes I did read it and I have read many other articles from various places.

[HighPriority]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

 

err... the driver said "you’ll need two drivers and you almost have to drive 24/7,” Murphy told The Driven.

(quoted from the page you linked)

 

???

is your post a joke ?

No.

That would be your comprehension skills.

 

The point is he drove 13,000km in 10 days, so much for range anxiety…

His comments that you quoted were in relation to doing the same trip quicker than 10 days.

[tgw]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

No.

That would be your comprehension skills.

 

The point is he drove 13,000km in 10 days, so much for range anxiety…

His comments that you quoted were in relation to doing the same trip quicker than 10 days.

 

so, how much hours of driving per day for doing 13.000Km in 10 days ?

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

 

so, how much hours of driving per day for doing 13.000Km in 10 days ?

Think you're asking the wrong people.

 

And for you ma/pa, hospital 30 mins away, kms ?, 50 maybe, then that would be about 20% battery needed, and you shouldn't take it down that far anyway, we don't, and usually never below 50%, since we charge with solar.

 

We charge when we can, and your parents would do the same.   Obviously if they drive quite a bit, then 2-3 day without electric would be a problem.

 

Though guessing they have a generator, so could simply charge off that if really needed, same as for the house.  Another problem solved with common sense ... go figure.

 

And you drive 1400 kms at a time, guessing you're not in Thailand, as T21/Asok to Phuket is 800 kms & 12 hrs.  I'd wouldn't want to drive that without an overnight, now.  I have in the past, non stop (overnight) & with multiple stops.  Needed not matter what car you drive.

 

They have EVs now that match the range of our ICEVs back then, and they were only good for 400+ kms.

 

Think 600 kms range is available in TH now.

 

I've driven Udon Thani to Phuket, and that's not even 1400 kms, and I certainly wouldn't do that now without a couple overnights.

 

All these 'what if' either are silly, or have solutions and possible to have an EV.

 

Just say you don't want an EV, no explanation needed, as most aren't applicable anyway.

 

HINT:  EVs aren't for everyone

Somehow we can repeat it, but some people just don't hear it.

[HighPriority]

13 hours ago, tgw said:

 

so, how much hours of driving per day for doing 13.000Km in 10 days ?

Sigh…

In general the majority of the 2200km in the NT a 130kmh speed limit applies.

For the rest of the country most of the highways are back to 100/110kmh.

You can do your own maths from here.

 

He drove the same trip a couple of years ago and it took him 14 days, incredibly ev infrastructure has improved 😳

It’s almost like infrastructure is following the uptake of the vehicles.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

21 hours ago, alien365 said:

For me the main problem with EVs is the reliance on China. I believe Biden signed the inflation reduction act recently which will hopefully help reduce the reliance on China in the EV supply chain. That's a step in the right direction at least. 

Pay more for an inferior product as a result of bias/prejudice/racism.

 

Cutting off your nose to spite your face comes to mind.

[Gweiloman]

19 hours ago, tgw said:

 

I don't use the car much anyway, often 2 or 3 weeks without using it, but when I need it, there is no alternative.

Another question is whether it makes sense economically to leave the car charging for 3 weeks without using it.

 

If governments were really serious about EV, they would subsidise car sharing through car rental companies, making sure the cost of use does not come more expensive than owning a highly efficient 15 year old ICE car.

Given your transportation requirements, you definitely shouldn’t buy an EV as you are not benefiting from any of the advantages of owning an EV and in fact exemplifying one of the biggest downsides ie driving long distances in a single journey. In fact, you shouldn’t own a car at all and instead fly as it would be much faster and more economical (unless you live 1,000 kms from the nearest airport in which case, you’re up sh*t creek without a paddle).

 

In answer to your question, you don’t leave your car charging for 3 weeks. You charge the traction battery up to 80% or 100% depending in the kind of battery you have and leave it. The battery might lose 1 or 2% every week, keeping the 12V battery charged and other systems operating, like in a normal ICEV. In fact, another advantage of an EV is that the traction battery keeps the 12 V battery charged. With an ICEV, you should be trickle charging the 12V battery so that it doesn’t run flat.

[alien365]

40 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Pay more for an inferior product as a result of bias/prejudice/racism.

 

Cutting off your nose to spite your face comes to mind.

It's called having a moral compass. 

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

Pay more for an inferior product as a result of bias/prejudice/racism.

 

Cutting off your nose to spite your face comes to mind.

 

18 minutes ago, alien365 said:

It's called having a moral compass. 

 

Nonsense, it's got nothing to do with having a moral compass and everything to do with protectionism.

 

The unfortunate effect of protecting your own market is that EV adoption will be slower because you are preventing your citizens from buying superior EV's at a compelling price.

[KhunLA]

When oil producers, PTT/TH and others start diversifying into building EVs & batteries, that should tell what direction things are going.

 

CH big oil diversifying is writing on the wall.  It's there, just accept it.   No problems with EVs. although your ICEVs for personal use are on borrowed time.  Maybe not in our lifetime, but will be phased out.

[HighPriority]

24 minutes ago, alien365 said:

It's called having a moral compass. 

You’ve likely still got the option of sourcing a nonChinese produced ev.

[KhunLA]

47 minutes ago, alien365 said:

It's called having a moral compass. 

operating any machined transportation defeats your moral compass.  Even a horse driven one is questionable, as has to be broken.

 

Moral compass ...

 

Hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

[alien365]

18 minutes ago, HighPriority said:

You’ve likely still got the option of sourcing a nonChinese produced ev.

Which is what I said in my original post (relating to the recent bill signed in the US to help combat this). I won't be buying another car for about 10 years now as I bought a pick up last year (I needed something I can put some weight in the back), but the next will be an EV or whatever the technology dictates at the time.

My home country (the UK) doesn't have a car industry anymore, but I'd rather support industry in a democratic country that pays it's staff proper wages, workers have rights and speech is not aggressively suppressed. China's recent takeover of Hong Kong, eagerness to control Taiwan,  along with their aggressive stance in the South China Sea doesn't sit right with me. Still people like @JBChiangRai assume they know how I form my opinion and label it nonsense and @Gweiloman jumps to racism and protectionism. You can support the overreliance on China if you like, but I'd rather reduce, not eliminate, mine. 

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, alien365 said:

Which is what I said in my original post (relating to the recent bill signed in the US to help combat this). I won't be buying another car for about 10 years now as I bought a pick up last year (I needed something I can put some weight in the back), but the next will be an EV or whatever the technology dictates at the time.

My home country (the UK) doesn't have a car industry anymore, but I'd rather support industry in a democratic country that pays it's staff proper wages, workers have rights and speech is not aggressively suppressed. China's recent takeover of Hong Kong, eagerness to control Taiwan,  along with their aggressive stance in the South China Sea doesn't sit right with me. Still people like @JBChiangRai assume they know how I form my opinion and label it nonsense and @Gweiloman jumps to racism and protectionism. You can support the overreliance on China if you like, but I'd rather reduce, not eliminate, mine. 

 

I take your point, but in the case of EV's, scruples are very expensive.

[Rampant Rabbit]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:26 PM, JBChiangRai said:

 

The link said exactly the opposite of what you said.  Regarding trade in value, I lost 10% on my EV after two years, pretty good I think

I bought a Toyota Vigo off a  friend for 420k baht just 1  year after he bought it from new as he said it was too big for BKK and he'd only done 3k kilometres, I sold it 10 years later for 400K and 260k  kilometres  within 2  days of  telling a  friend of  mine (Thai)

[alien365]

Just to point out my comment was also to highlight that science isn't everything. I accept the science and believe the EV cars are becoming a lot safer, I just chose not to buy one last year as it wasn't right for me. 

I also should accept that protectionism is a valid issue people have, not me, with buying EVs. My personal feelings got lost in that point. 

[KhunLA]

34 minutes ago, alien365 said:

but I'd rather support industry in a democratic country that pays it's staff proper wages, workers have rights and speech is not aggressively suppressed. 

Let us know where that is.  As a Yank, it's not the USA.  I actually have more 'freedoms' here/TH, than I did in USA.

 

Democracy ... 

That's an illusion 

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, alien365 said:

I'd rather support industry in a democratic country that pays it's staff proper wages

Corporations do not pay workers "proper wages" anywhere in the world unless they are forced to by regulations or unions. 

[alien365]

2 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Corporations do not pay workers "proper wages" anywhere in the world unless they are forced to by regulations or unions. 

Exactly. And in democratic countries that happens. The unions in China appear to be unions in name only.