Exemptions under the new tax laws?

[Presnock]

I have read a lot of Thai (translated) by some legal folks too, that according to the new tax laws, there can be exemptions on certain pensions (in one it says special pensions) and even in other google available translations.  There is even an exemption for "wealthy retiree's pension" and the wealthy retiree is defined as one receiving a pension of over 80K USD per year.  Also, there are provisions that state that the DTA has priority if the pension is taxed prior by the paying country.  By reading one's country's DTA with Thailand (also can easily be googled) one should be able to understand if their pension or other funds are exempt or not.  All should be available on google in different languages even.  Hopefully we will receive "official" notification of exactly what we can expect to do this year though nothing needs to be paid until we reside over 180 daysin Thailand this year, but it would be nice to be able to make any necessary plans prior to then.

[foreverlomsak]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

nothing needs to be paid until we reside over 180 daysin Thailand this year, but it would be nice to be able to make any necessary plans prior to then.

and in most cases nothing needs to be done (apart from getting a tax no if you are so inclined) or paid until January 2025, unless you wish to make a part submission circa July '24.

[mfd101]

21 hours ago, Presnock said:

There is even an exemption for "wealthy retiree's pension" and the wealthy retiree is defined as one receiving a pension of over 80K USD per year.  Also, there are provisions that state that the DTA has priority if the pension is taxed prior by the paying country. 

On that basis very few people here on AN would have anything to worry about. Whether we would still need - in practice - to make a tax declaration in Thailand each year remains to be seen.

[TheAppletons]

21 hours ago, Presnock said:

  There is even an exemption for "wealthy retiree's pension" and the wealthy retiree is defined as one receiving a pension of over 80K USD per year. 

 

  I'm relatively certain this applies only to the "built-in" exemption for people holding the "wealthy pensioner" Long Term Resident (LTR) visa.  

 

  

  

[Mike Lister]

21 hours ago, Presnock said:

I have read a lot of Thai (translated) by some legal folks too, that according to the new tax laws, there can be exemptions on certain pensions (in one it says special pensions) and even in other google available translations.  There is even an exemption for "wealthy retiree's pension" and the wealthy retiree is defined as one receiving a pension of over 80K USD per year.  Also, there are provisions that state that the DTA has priority if the pension is taxed prior by the paying country.  By reading one's country's DTA with Thailand (also can easily be googled) one should be able to understand if their pension or other funds are exempt or not.  All should be available on google in different languages even.  Hopefully we will receive "official" notification of exactly what we can expect to do this year though nothing needs to be paid until we reside over 180 daysin Thailand this year, but it would be nice to be able to make any necessary plans prior to then.

Untrue. It depends on the visa the person holds and the source of that 80k pension, if social security in the USA for example, yes, if from elsewhere in another country, potentially no. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  I'm relatively certain this applies only to the "built-in" exemption for people holding the "wealthy pensioner" Long Term Resident (LTR) visa.  

 

  

  

Agreed

[Presnock]

42 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  I'm relatively certain this applies only to the "built-in" exemption for people holding the "wealthy pensioner" Long Term Resident (LTR) visa.  

 

  

  

in the documentation, wealthy pensioners include the LTR holders, and 80K pensioners, if less than 80K but at leasrt 40K they are considered wealthy pensioners too but must buy govt bonds or something to that effect.  It is in the documentation of Thai taxes.

[Presnock]

43 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Untrue. It depends on the visa the person holds and the source of that 80k pension, if social security in the USA for example, yes, if from elsewhere in another country, potentially no. 

social security in the US maxes out at less than 40K per year but article 20 of the DTA says that SS can only be taxed by the US.  I do blv other countries mention their pensions too but I haven't bothered to read any of those, only seen notes from ex-pats from other countries.

[Surasak]

22 hours ago, Presnock said:

I have read a lot of Thai (translated) by some legal folks too, that according to the new tax laws, there can be exemptions on certain pensions (in one it says special pensions) and even in other google available translations.  There is even an exemption for "wealthy retiree's pension" and the wealthy retiree is defined as one receiving a pension of over 80K USD per year.  Also, there are provisions that state that the DTA has priority if the pension is taxed prior by the paying country.  By reading one's country's DTA with Thailand (also can easily be googled) one should be able to understand if their pension or other funds are exempt or not.  All should be available on google in different languages even.  Hopefully we will receive "official" notification of exactly what we can expect to do this year though nothing needs to be paid until we reside over 180 daysin Thailand this year, but it would be nice to be able to make any necessary plans prior to then.

When Thai's start to think beyond their last action, maybe, just maybe we can make plans?

[TheAppletons]

5 minutes ago, Presnock said:

in the documentation, wealthy pensioners include the LTR holders, and 80K pensioners, if less than 80K but at leasrt 40K they are considered wealthy pensioners too but must buy govt bonds or something to that effect.  It is in the documentation of Thai taxes.

 

  Congratulations, you've just described the criteria for holding the LTR visa for wealthy pensioners.

 

  

"Wealthy Pensioners

Applicants must be retired and be over 50 years old.

Personal passive income: min. USD 80,000/year.

If personal income is between USD 40,000/year and USD 80,000/year, applicants must invest min. USD 250,000 in Thailand."

 

https://harveylawcorporation.com/thailand-long-term-resident/

[Presnock]

44 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Agreed

I cannot understand why so many people continue to make statements not supported by actual documentation.  Read the DTA with the US and your country if other than US and read the Thai tax documented, translated into English too.  "wealthy" pensioners are mentioned in 3 separate definitions, LTR holders, 80K per year and 40K per year.  LTR are separated.

[Mike Lister]

 

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I cannot understand why so many people continue to make statements not supported by actual documentation.  Read the DTA with the US and your country if other than US and read the Thai tax documented, translated into English too.  "wealthy" pensioners are mentioned in 3 separate definitions, LTR holders, 80K per year and 40K per year.  LTR are separated.

Forum rules require you to support factual statements with links, please post the link and the quote showing where those things are true and correct. 

[retarius]

23 hours ago, Presnock said:

I have read a lot of Thai (translated) by some legal folks too, that according to the new tax laws, there can be exemptions on certain pensions (in one it says special pensions) and even in other google available translations.  There is even an exemption for "wealthy retiree's pension" and the wealthy retiree is defined as one receiving a pension of over 80K USD per year.  Also, there are provisions that state that the DTA has priority if the pension is taxed prior by the paying country.  By reading one's country's DTA with Thailand (also can easily be googled) one should be able to understand if their pension or other funds are exempt or not.  All should be available on google in different languages even.  Hopefully we will receive "official" notification of exactly what we can expect to do this year though nothing needs to be paid until we reside over 180 daysin Thailand this year, but it would be nice to be able to make any necessary plans prior to then.

My US accountants have told me that US SS payments made over here are exempt under a 1998 DTA. I have no tax withheld from my SS payment (ca 100,000 Baht paid monthly into a special Bangkok account which has no debit card and from which, funds much be withdrawn in person to prevent any fraud after death).

 

I have a private pension which is the bulk of my income, but they will not pay it into any foreign bank, so that builds up in a US account. I have a 401k that I take out a sum annually, to pay alimony to my ex, and to pay all taxes for the year in question. I also transfer money from this 401K to give me extra spending money here. If I run short during the year, I have a transfer made from the account in the US that receives my pension. It is these two types of transfers I am most worried about. My accounts say they cannot tell me anything until they know what the new system will be, and which hasn't been announced yet.

 

This is my own very simple system, but may run aground if the proofs of having paid taxes on the transfers are  tied to individual transfers rather than the annual totals. Where I foresee difficulties is that I pay all of my US taxes in February following the tax year, (so in Feb 2024 I will pay for all estimated taxes for 2023) but have no receipt for it, except the 401K slip.

 

I file my US taxes with the IRS on October 15th of each year for the preceding year. Thus, I will not have my total tax return for the US available until then, which would be the major proof that taxes had been paid on all of my income. My worry is that the Thai tax department may want their taxes much earlier than that, and find some way of making me pay. I will then be in. position of being a foreigner trying to reclaim Thai taxes paid from the Thai tax department. I NEVER WANT TO BE IN THAT SITUATION.

 

We have to wait and see what system the Thai government come up with to make us pay this tax here. I have been told by commenters on here that 'the only way to do it is on an annual tax return'. I disagree with this because there is never 'only one way', and the Thai government might come up with some sort of scheme that robs me. 

 

Edited January 6 by retarius

[Presnock]

6 minutes ago, retarius said:

My US accountants have told me that US SS payments made over here are exempt under a 1998 DTA. I have no tax withheld from my SS payment (ca 100,000 Baht paid monthly into a special Bangkok account which has no debit card and from which, funds much be withdrawn in person to prevent any fraud after death).

 

I have a private pension which is the bulk of my income, but they will not pay it into any foreign bank, so that builds up in a US account. I have a 401k that I take out a sum annually, to pay alimony to my ex, to pay all taxes for the year inquisition, and to give me extra spending money here. If I run short during the year, I have a transfer made from the account in the US that receives my pension.

 

This is my own very simple system, but may run aground if the proofs of having paid taxes on the transfers are  tied to individual transfers rather than the annual totals. Where I foresee difficulties is that I pay all of my US taxes in February following the tax year, (so in Feb 2024 I will pay for all estimated taxes for 2023) but have no receipt for it, except the 401K slip.

 

I file my US taxes with the IRS on October 15th of each year for the preceding year. Thus, I will not have my total tax return for the US available until then, which would be the major proof that taxes had been paid on all of my income. My worry is that the Thai tax department may want their taxes much earlier than that, and find some way of making me pay. I will then be in. position of being a foreigner trying to reclaim Thai taxes paid from the Thai tax department. I NEVER WANT TO BE IN THAT SITUATION.

 

We have to wait and see what system the Thai government come up with to make us pay this tax here. I have been told by commenters on here that 'the only way to do it is on an annual tax return'. I disagree with this because there is never 'only one way', and the Thai government might come up with some sort of scheme that robs me. 

 

I blv taxes need to be paid for 2024 in January 2025 but can check out the tax laws of thailand

[Presnock]

36 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Forum rules require you to support factual statements with links, please post the link and the quote showing where those things are true and correct. 

DTA if you don't understand that, fully written as a source "DTA equals Double Taxation Agreement between (in my case) USA and Thailand, but if from a different country then DTA between your country (61 choices) and Thailand.   These are Thai government documents with translations in other languages too at least ENGLISH.

[retarius]

38 minutes ago, Presnock said:

social security in the US maxes out at less than 40K per year but article 20 of the DTA says that SS can only be taxed by the US.  I do blv other countries mention their pensions too but I haven't bothered to read any of those, only seen notes from ex-pats from other countries.

Can Thailand withdraw from the DTAs? Would it pay the Thai government to do this? I always ask myself what are the possibilities?

[retarius]

4 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I blv taxes need to be paid for 2024 in January 2025 but can check out the tax laws of thailand

If this is correct, I will have no issues. Thanks.

[Presnock]

My sources of Taxation and exemptions can be found in the following links:

  "DTA between USA and Thailand"  for US citazens, check out articles 20 and 21 for exemptions on govt pensions/social security)

  "Thai taxes" (with choices of many different translations) containing exactly what it says (some have table of contents to help you decide which you want to read)

[Presnock]

4 minutes ago, retarius said:

Can Thailand withdraw from the DTAs? Would it pay the Thai government to do this? I always ask myself what are the possibilities?

Since they are a sovereign government, they could withdraw or re-negotiate, just as the US could.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, Presnock said:

DTA if you don't understand that, fully written as a source "DTA equals Double Taxation Agreement between (in my case) USA and Thailand, but if from a different country then DTA between your country (61 choices) and Thailand.   These are Thai government documents with translations in other languages too at least ENGLISH.

I know what a DTA is, I want you to provide a link to support your statements that Thailand RD will allow wealthy pensioners, either under RD rules or DTA rules, to be tax exempt up to the amounts you claim.

[J Branche]

As stated Read your home country DTA Double Tax Agreement.  For income from rental properties in the US and from stock, bond, ETF investments were that money will be transferred into Thailand Our tax situation is different.  We should speak with our accountant to understand, plan or make any changes for the desired performance of our investments.

 

Understand You may have to keep, present, and prove the source of your income that is transferred into Thailand No matter what your situation.  This clerical burden is your to complete.

 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

I cannot understand why so many people continue to make statements not supported by actual documentation.  Read the DTA with the US and your country if other than US and read the Thai tax documented, translated into English too.  "wealthy" pensioners are mentioned in 3 separate definitions, LTR holders, 80K per year and 40K per year.  LTR are separated.

 

You mean like this nonsense, posted by AN member Presnock:

 

"I continue to regularly see questions about the taxation by the Thai govt of US pensions - I queried a foreign tax

advisor concerning this question.  They informed me that even though the US and Thai governments have a 

tax agreement, legally the Thai govt could tax the pension funds sent into Thailand.  They said that any taxes

paid to the Thai government from pension sent into Thailand, then the US will refund the same number of dollars

taken out of those funds by the Thais.  Previously in this forum someone provided the tax brackets for Thai taxes

and it indicated that the lowest tax bracket begins at 150,000 and I think that was in US dollars so if one is on a

US pension, they probably would not have to pay any taxes to the Thai government......."

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1312534-taxation-of-ex-pats-pensions-etc/page/3/

 

 

[foreverlomsak]

39 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I blv taxes need to be paid for 2024 in January 2025 but can check out the tax laws of thailand

January to March 2025 is the assessment and payment period for income during the tax year 2024.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

The latest advice I have from a tax consultant is that it is very unlikley that the Thai RD will require retired/married Expats to pay income taxes. Most money they have is either exempt (Pensions etc.) or is not taxable as it was earned before 1 Jan 2024.  However, those actually 'earning' money from things like rental properties and selling shares/investments, might be caught up in the net.

 

However, the unknown issue still reamins whether the Thai RD will require Expats to lodge a tax return and 'prove' their money remitted into Thailand is either exempt or not taxable - and exactly what documents/evidence will the Thai RD require to accept that claim.  That is still for me the biggest issue - because what happens if the Thai RD rejects my exemption/not applicable claim, is that I will have to pay their calculated income tax - or dispute their decision in a Thai Tribunal using only Thai documents and communication (and a Thai lawyer). 

 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I know what a DTA is, I want you to provide a link to support your statements that Thailand RD will allow wealthy pensioners, either under RD rules or DTA rules, to be tax exempt up to the amounts you claim.

if you ar a wealthy pensioner, globally rich, at least 40k pension and willing to invest in Thai bonds or whatever, then obtain a long term visa and they indicate tax free in Thailand, there are other benefits too...just search "Thai immigration LTR" .  As for USA pensioners, the DTA says that US govt pensions can be taxed only in the paying country unless the pensioner is also a Thai native and resident in Thailand. (this is according to article 21 of the DTA...just search DTA between USA and Thailand.  

[Presnock]

Since we all have our own opinions of what is going to happen in this taxation program, I blv that the Thai govt will not tax pensions but will require the ex-pat pensioner to show the source of the pension and taxes paid to the paying govt.  I also think that with so many different DTA's, the ex-pat will be responsible for providing the Thai govt, possibly during long-term stay renewals, proof of either taxes already paid on income or reason for exemption.   This is similar to what US ex-pats are required to do as far as paying our required taxes each year via the  IRS form 1040 for any income received for that year.  We also receive via the office paying us our govt pension a monthly readout of annuity payment and taxes paid plus we get a W2 indicating how much we did receive for the year and how much taxes were deducted and we should be able to provide a copy to whichever local office will need proof of source and if taxes were deducted.  Since there are so many different brands of ex-pats here, immigration yearly renewal seeems almost too logical to ignore for providing proof of a Thai tax number and source of income but...TIT.  Many translations of the Thai tax laws are for individual legal offices and they cater to ex-pats so they may or may not be providing complete information in my opinion.

Anyway, hope everyone has a healthy and happy 2024th.  Seems like some folks here are getting to be like facebook...had to drop off that as some really thin skin folks there for very small reasons while the really bad ones can do or say anything.

[treetops]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Forum rules require you to support factual statements with links, please post the link and the quote showing where those things are true and correct. 

Forum rules require no such thing.  Here's a link to prove it. ;)

 

https://aseannow.com/terms/

 

[sometimewoodworker]

There seems to be a rather confused interpretation of what a DTA actually means.

It doesn’t mean that if you are taxed in one country that you are exempt from tax in another.

What it does mean is that the tax payed in one country is off set against the tax liability in the second country.

Some countries have negotiated that certain types of income are exempt from taxation in Thailand. 

One example, The U. K. has negotiated a tax free allowance for capital gains.

 

So if your Thai tax liability is greater than the tax you paid in your other country you must pay the difference.

If your Thai tax liability is smaller than the tax you paid in your other country you pay nothing.

 

Calculations for tax are always done using the rules applicable in that country so any tax reduction strategies are only valid in the country that is assessing your liability 

[kingstonkid]

41 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Since we all have our own opinions of what is going to happen in this taxation program, I blv that the Thai govt will not tax pensions but will require the ex-pat pensioner to show the source of the pension and taxes paid to the paying govt.  I also think that with so many different DTA's, the ex-pat will be responsible for providing the Thai govt, possibly during long-term stay renewals, proof of either taxes already paid on income or reason for exemption.   This is similar to what US ex-pats are required to do as far as paying our required taxes each year via the  IRS form 1040 for any income received for that year.  We also receive via the office paying us our govt pension a monthly readout of annuity payment and taxes paid plus we get a W2 indicating how much we did receive for the year and how much taxes were deducted and we should be able to provide a copy to whichever local office will need proof of source and if taxes were deducted.  Since there are so many different brands of ex-pats here, immigration yearly renewal seeems almost too logical to ignore for providing proof of a Thai tax number and source of income but...TIT.  Many translations of the Thai tax laws are for individual legal offices and they cater to ex-pats so they may or may not be providing complete information in my opinion.

Anyway, hope everyone has a healthy and happy 2024th.  Seems like some folks here are getting to be like facebook...had to drop off that as some really thin skin folks there for very small reasons while the really bad ones can do or say anything.

 

I am surprised that one of the many accounting firms in Thailand have not jumped up and advertised or provided info.

 

I thinkthere are still a lot of things that need to be covered and decided yet.

[Robin]

Earlier threads on this subject stated that the new laws would be issued on 1 Jan 2024.  it is now 6 Jan 2024  and I have not seen any posting here saying what the new laws are.  Does this mean that the Thai revenue dept. has not issued any ruling?   That would not surprize me, but what can we do until the ruling is issued?   How can we make plans for the year ahead if the RD will not say what the rules are to be?

Is this an indication that RD has realised that they are opening a 'can of worms' and are backing off?