Foreigners among World Central Kitchen staff killed in Israeli strike

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Really?

 

You are 100% certain of that, and have the evidence to prove it?

 

Then it should be easy for you to prove it. Just produce the evidence. The IDF and the Israeli government desperately need that 100% verified evidence.

 

   He wasn't being serious , he was being ironic or sarcastic or whatever you want to call it .

He didn't literally mean what he said , he did mean the opposite of what he said 

[billd766]

46 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I note a lot of very biased opinions in this thread - the majority seem to replicate the same futile fight that has gone on for almost a century and is the root cause of the current conflict.

 

I doubt this matter will ever be solved and it certainly won't if both sides don't recognise each other's right to exist. The situation that brought about the current conflict in Gaza is very compilcated and subjective. History books may offer explanations, they don't offer solutions

 

There are two groups of people living in the same land but one group has no official legitimacy and is dominated by the other in many ways. Each group has a totally different religion which in the case of Israel, is also the basis of its governance, laws and traditions.  The Palestinians share the same non secular society type but have no real power or legitimacy in the eyes of Israel.

 

The attack on Israeli citizens by Hamas (and others) on 7th October was horrific by any standards and a heinous and horrific act of terrorism - nobody with half a brain can deny that.  However, as Antonio Guterres, Secretary General of the UN said shortly afterwards, it did not happen in a vacuum.  Many have sought to twist the meaning of his words since then but what he meant was that the increasingly shameful treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis was the reason and background to the attack - in no way did he mean it was an excuse for it.

 

Both sides have totally different requirements for the future - neither of which will ever happen, if only they could both recognise that.

 

The extremely right wing Israeli government of Benjamin Netanyahu, if allowed to entirely have its own way would clear the entire country, including the 'occupied territitories' of all Palestinian and other muslim minority groups.

 

The continued theft of land for 'settlements' (even last week) within the so called 'occupied territory' is just one piece of evidence against the current Israeli administration.

 

(Milder, less politic Israeli citizens believe that the Palestinians have rights and that the two groups can live together or at the very least, separated within the same borders.)

 

The Palestinian people simply want what we all want - somewhere to live and call home. Somewhere where we have rights and respect where we can make a living and raise our families.

 

However, there are various extremist Islamic groups who want the Israelis gone and have vowed to kill them all. Hamas is just one of those groups but it is the one that has had administrative control of Gaza.  Stoking that fire and providing arms to Hamas and others are radical muslim groups outside Israel in other countries - one in particular, Iran.

 

I don't believe either side will ever back down and accept the other but I don't see any possibility of a settlement that is not enforced on both sides by the International Community.

 

That's the crux of it, you can complicate matters by quoting from history but the facts are, we are where we are today - not where we were yesterday.

 

The problem with where we are today is that we have a powerful military force, reeking revenge on a largely unarmed population.  A force using the excuse of the 7th October Attack to cover their totally reckless disregard for Palestinian lives as they prosecute their 'war on Hamas'.

 

Where do I gain the right to state that?  Isn't it a fact that the 'collateral damage' that has resulted in the killing of over 30,000 people, mainly civilians is unpreventable in a war?  'Collateral damage' in my book is for example, when a bomb goes astray and kills or damages people or property without intention.  Is that really what's been happening?

 

There have been many, many examples of Israel's recklesness recently - just 3 of which are:

 

In December 2023 Israel killed three Israeli hostages that were waving white flags and calling for help.

 

Since October 2023 close to 200 humanitarian aid workers and doctors have been killed by Israeli attacks in Gaza.

 

The current debate about 7 aid workers being killed by a 'Tragic Error' on the part of the Israeli forces clearly illustrates Israel's dangeously reckless behaviour.  The attack by missiles fired from drones went on for several minutes and covered several kilometers as the aid workers frantically ran from car to car. Their clearly marked vehicles and route had been pre approved by the Israelis.  The Israelis are now claiming that it was dark and the markings on the aid vehicles could not be seen.

 

Really? Well then, surely if a target cannot be identified, it should not be attacked? Collateral damage?  I don't think so. I don't for one minute, think that Israel intended to kill aid workers but I do think they intended to kill the occupants of 3 vehicles which by their own admission, they could not indentify.  It must however, be remembered, that the Israelies knew that aid workers were in the area and would be moving along the route they did.

 

Israel has every right to rout and punish Hamas for the 7th October attack, what they don't have is the right to kill over 30,000 civillians and 200 aid workers and call it 'Collateral Damage' - its actually Collective Punishment which is totally against internationally recognised law.

 

Its sad that it has taken the killing of 7 aid workers before any serious condemation of Israel's actions by its allies has been made.

 

Israel's refusal to allow anything near the required amount of food and other humanitarian aid into Gaza until now is another crime that in my opinion has been part of the 'collective punishment' of the Palestinian people.  They claim that aid coming in through the Rafah crossing is being used by Hamas. Israel has controlled most of Northern Gaza since early on in the conflict - if they were worried that aid coming in through Rafah would fall into the hands of Hamas, why has it taken until now to open the Erez crossing in the North?

 

I support neither Israel nor Hamas - I support life, freedom and the right to live peacefully.  Will Israel achieve its aims and make its country safe for its citizens when it defeats Hamas in Gaza?  How many new 'terrorists' have been created by Israel's attrocities in this conflict?

 

Will there be more terrorist attacks on Israel or their citizens around the world when the Gaza war ends? For sure.

 

Will Hamas achieve its goal of destroying the Israeli state and killing all jews within the territory? Not a hope! Will thousands more Palestinians die over the coming months and years? Almost certainly.

 

Has Hamas achieved anything at all by carrying out the 7th October attacks?  Well actually, yes they have - they have focused the world's attention on the plight of the Palestinian people. It is also doubtful that Israel's actions so far will have caused any form of understanding amongst the people of Gaza.  Hatred is what they will have caused and you can be sure that groups such as Hamas will capitalise on that.

 

Would a 2 state solution work?  Possibly but only if its imposed and installed by the international community overall. A key factor of that imposition would have to be forcing Israel out of its 'settlements' and back behind previously agreed borders. However, as long as there are radical islamists in countries outside Israel - countries that are ruled according to religion and who do not accept the rights of a Jewish state to even exist, there will not be total peace.  Such countries can't even achieve peace within their own borders as their governments continue imposing their strict religious ways on increasingly intolerant populations.

 

A 2 state solution won't work either whilst Israel remains within the grip of Netanyahu's right will fanatics - however, the writing was on the wall for Netanyahu before this conflict began.  I don't think he or his group will be around for long once the war ends.

 

The world must no longer stand by and allow extremist Islamic groups to carry out terrorist attacks but neither can it do nothing when Israel stokes the fires that cause such attacks in the first place.

Thank you for an extremely well written article. 

 

I agree with every word.  

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, billd766 said:

Thank you for an extremely well written article. 

 

I agree with every word.  

Yes of course you do, the last post you responded to went straight over your head and you took it to mean the opposite of what was intended

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Have you reported all these Jew hating posts (including mine) to the moderators to see if they are correct or not? And if the moderators agree they are OK posts, will you accept their decision?

 

   May I suggest that no one reports any anti Semitic posts . 

Don't try to get them removed , keep them there for all to see .

They sometimes accidently  reveal their true agenda , don't report anti Semitic posts , reply to them so they cannot delete them .

[frank83628]

15 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

APPLES AND ORANGES... The aggressors are russia and hamas... not ukraine and israel

yeah right. can you tell me when the russian/Ukranine thins started? also google the map of Israel.... how much have israel expanded since it's conception ?

 

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

That is why the IDF can destroy 3 separate vehicles with pinpoint accuracy but have to destroy any building that they "think" might have Hamas fighters in, and killing innocent men, women and children as "collateral damage".

Couldn't agree more, its absolutely disgusting.

 

I remember a few months back where they had flattened an entire apartment block to take out one apartment. No numbers were given but from the TV footage, I'd guess there were 30-50 apartments in that building.  That's 'collateral damage'?  It certainly is not and hopefully, the countries, including my own, that have been supporting Israel and ignoring such things by constantly stating that Israel has a right to defend itself, are finally realising Israel's 'reckless disregard' for Palestinian lives. Its shameful though, that its taken over 30,000 lost lives to bring about that realisation. Does nobody understand that figure? Thirty Thousand Lives! Let's not forget that there will also be at least ten times that number that have been maimed or seriously injured. How many kids have been orphaned?

 

I make no excuse for again using the term 'reckless disregard', I heard it on a radio report from Gaza shortly after the 7 aid workers were killed, it fits with Israel's actions exactly.

 

I don't have any problem at all with Israel prosecuting a war against Hamas, the attack on 7th October was horrendous but its been clear since early on in this conflict that they don't have the slightest care as to how they do that. Its fairly difficult to believe that Netanyahu cares for any lives at all - even Israeli. Remember that the Israeli hostages are hidden somewhere within the constanly bombed buildings of Gaza or the tunnels they've flooded.

 

Clearly there will be an end to this conflict but has anyone given a thought to who will pay for the aftermath? Who will pay to repair the wasteland that was Gaza Israel has created? Who will foot the bill for those Palestinian victims who will need life long care and attention? Will Israel play a part in that?  Somehow I doubt it.

[Nick Carter icp]

12 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

That's 'collateral damage'?  It certainly is not and hopefully, the countries, including my own, that have been supporting Israel and ignoring such things by constantly stating that Israel has a right to defend itself, are finally realising Israel's 'reckless disregard' for Palestinian lives. Its shameful though, that its taken over 30,000 lost lives to bring about that realisation. Does nobody understand that figure?

 

 

   Do you realise that include the Hamas terrorists who have been killed .

Nearly half of the 30 000 killed people have been Hamas terrorists .

You speak like it was 30 000 innocent people killed and no terrorists killed .

Nearly half the dead were terrorists 

[MangoKorat]

2 hours ago, frank83628 said:

yeah right. can you tell me when the russian/Ukranine thins started? also google the map of Israel.... how much have israel expanded since it's conception ?

 

Are you suggesting that Ukraine is to blame for the Russian invasion of its lands or that Russia didn't invade Crimea in 2014?

 

Do you think that Israel hasn't ignored the lines drawn up by the UN or annexed additional land?  Are you saying that there is no such thing as the 'Occupied Territory'? Which country do you believe the Golan Heights actually belong to?

 

I don't think there's another country on Earth that's ignored so many UN resolutions regarding the extent of its lands.  The International Court of Justice is currently hearing arguments on the legality of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories.

 

Just a few examples - interesting to hear your thoughts.

[MangoKorat]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 Do you realise that include the Hamas terrorists who have been killed .

Nearly half of the 30 000 killed people have been Hamas terrorists .

You speak like it was 30 000 innocent people killed and no terrorists killed .

Nearly half the dead were terrorists 

The number is actually over 32,000 now. Figures provided by the Hamas run Gaza medical authorities but of course, Israel won't allow independent observers in to Gaza for some reason.

 

I don't think either of us know how many of those were actually Hamas although the number will be considerable.

 

To be quite honest, I don't give a toss if the figure is 3, 3000, 30,000 or 300,000. One innocent civillian is one too many in my book. What figure do you feel is acceptable? Who should that be? How many deaths amongst your family would you consider 'collateral'.

 

I have not attempted to justify the horrific actions of Hamas - don't you dare to try and justify the actions of the Israeli's, you cannot!

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

The number is actually over 32,000 now. Figures provided by the Hamas run Gaza medical authorities but of course, Israel won't allow independent observers in to Gaza for some reason.

 

I don't think either of us know how many of those were actually Hamas although the number will be considerable.

 

To be quite honest, I don't give a toss if the figure is 3, 3000, 30,000 or 300,000. One innocent civillian is one too many in my book. What figure do you feel is acceptable? Who should that be? How many deaths amongst your family would you consider 'collateral'.

 

I have not attempted to justify the horrific actions of Hamas - don't you dare to try and justify the actions of the Israeli's, you cannot!

 

   I used your initial figure of 30 000 dead  , but I did know that was a just a rough  figure . 

There has never been a war where no civilians died , civilians die in all wars , why do you expect this war to be different to every other war ever in the World ?

   Its been stated that over 14 000 Hamas have been killed , that's 14 000 dead terrorists  out of 32 000 dead.

   That is a vet low civilian to enemy combatant killed , usually the figure is much higher than

That .

   I will indeed justify Israel's actions in Gaza , its a response to a terror attack and stopping Hamas doing it again , fully justified IMO

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 I will indeed justify Israel's actions in Gaza , its a response to a terror attack and stopping Hamas doing it again , fully justified IMO

Then you are not a person that I wish to debate with any further but I'll answer your questions and leave you with one.

 

Yes its a war but its not a war fought between two nations.  In this war, the entire military of a well equiped country is raging its war against a terrorist group that lives amongst the civillian population.  That population might have voted for Hamas as a government but they have never been recognised as a legitimate authority, they are considered as terrorists by most countries.  Given that the Israelis (without any authority to do so) will not allow Palestinians, apart from a heavily vetted few to travel outside Gaza, even to other Palestinian areas, they could hardly leave could they? The entire area of the Gaza Strip has been 'blockaded' by Israel since 2007.  Various other serious restrictions have been placed on the people of Gaza resulting in it been descibed as an 'open air prison'.  What type of attitude do you think such actions will breed?  Gaza doesn't contain enough land for its population to feed itself and has relied on huge international aid since the blockade.

 

Look at Jerusalem - people being told when and where they can pray. Farmers booted off their land and it being given to Israeli 'settlers'. Houses bulldozed. Who is going to accept such treatment?

 

Who stated that 14,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed?

 

I believe you know all of this yet you don't seem or don't want to, understand why the current situation exists.

 

So a question, one I doubt you will answer honestly.

 

I don't know where you're from or what family you might have, not that it matters but I suspect you are an American and most of us have families.  Let's say for example, that a terrorist, responsible for the deaths of many people was hiding in an apartment building and one of those apartments was occupied by your daughter.

 

Would you consider it justifiable for the authorities of your country to destroy the entire building and everyone in it, including your daughter in order to kill one terrorist? 

 

As someone in another post said, the IDF have weapons that can pinpoint down to exact vehicles (as they did with the 7 aid workers) - how the hell can you justify them taking out entire apartment buildings to target one apartment?  They have by the way, admitted using 1000lb bombs to do so.

Edited April 7 by MangoKorat

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

Then you are not a person that I wish to debate with any further

 

  Lets leave it at that then .

No point in me reading the rest of your post or replying to it 

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

Laughing at deaths in war zones?

 

Not good.

I wasn't laughing about the deaths, as you probably know. I was LOL about the IMO ludicrous post trying to justify the israeli atrocity by blaming the victims.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Clearly there will be an end to this conflict but has anyone given a thought to who will pay for the aftermath? Who will pay to repair the wasteland that was Gaza Israel has created? Who will foot the bill for those Palestinian victims who will need life long care and attention? Will Israel play a part in that?  Somehow I doubt it.

I think I can say with certainty that israel will not. It's IMO destroying Gaza to make it uninhabitable, so they will not want to help make it habitable.

 

IMO the US should as Biden could have stopped the bombing long ago, so IMO America is liable. Add the European countries that sent bombs to blow up Gaza.

 

Some how I suspect they will cry poverty, though they have no problem paying for the bombs that destroyed, and for supporting a different war as well.

IMO the US and Europe ( including Britain ) are led by hypocrites.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

It is also doubtful that Israel's actions so far will have caused any form of understanding amongst the people of Gaza.  Hatred is what they will have caused and you can be sure that groups such as Hamas will capitalise on that.

Agree 100%. Israel has created a forever enemy, and will suffer for it. An appropriate example is Ireland that fought back against the English invaders and oppressors for hundreds of years.

The hatred that has been created will never vanish, but will be passed from generation to generation. Small boys will play "Palestinians and israelis" with israelis as the bad guys to be "killed" ( like the "cowboys and Indians" that we played when I was a young boy ). Those small boys will grow up to do their best to kill israelis for real.

 

Sadly, it could have all been so different, back when there actually was a West Bank that the Palestinians could have built a state in. That option has long gone. IMO anyone in authority that references a "two state solution is being disingenuous.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Neeranam said:

He is obviously not laughing at that but laughing at you and what you believe. 

Thank you. I have replied to his post and pointed out that what you say is correct.

Lots of victim blaming going on by his side.

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

I invite anyone on this forum to hold their hands up and say "Wow. I'm shocked someone has died in a warzone".

I am when they were killed after clearing their movements by the IDF.

 

I'm probably more shocked by the pathetic attempt by the IDF to justify their atrocity.

If what they say is true, it makes them incompetent in that command does not communicate with troops on the ground, or apparently in this case with drone operators, and there is no operational command structure, which I do not believe. Unlike some on here I've actually been in the military, and understand how it works, which is not how the IDF are trying to justify their actions.

[Bkk Brian]

44 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I am when they were killed after clearing their movements by the IDF.

 

I'm probably more shocked by the pathetic attempt by the IDF to justify their atrocity.

If what they say is true, it makes them incompetent in that command does not communicate with troops on the ground, or apparently in this case with drone operators, and there is no operational command structure, which I do not believe. Unlike some on here I've actually been in the military, and understand how it works, which is not how the IDF are trying to justify their actions.

Unlike some on here I've actually been in the military, and understand how it works, which is not how the IDF are trying to justify their actions.

 

Did they have drones when you were in the military? You've stated before you were a nurse?

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

The number is actually over 32,000 now. Figures provided by the Hamas run Gaza medical authorities but of course, Israel won't allow independent observers in to Gaza for some reason.

 

I don't think either of us know how many of those were actually Hamas although the number will be considerable.

 

To be quite honest, I don't give a toss if the figure is 3, 3000, 30,000 or 300,000. One innocent civillian is one too many in my book. What figure do you feel is acceptable? Who should that be? How many deaths amongst your family would you consider 'collateral'.

 

I have not attempted to justify the horrific actions of Hamas - don't you dare to try and justify the actions of the Israeli's, you cannot!

To be quite honest, I don't give a toss if the figure is 3, 3000, 30,000 or 300,000. 

 

Strange admission, says a lot about you. Besides reliable figures are extremely important. Hamas figures are not reliable particularly when they themselves admit so many of them are not from hosptial sources but from media sources but they won't say which ones.

 

No wonder you other posts are full of unsubstantiated rants

[sirineou]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Really?

 

You are 100% certain of that, and have the evidence to prove it?

 

Then it should be easy for you to prove it. Just produce the evidence. The IDF and the Israeli government desperately need that 100% verified evidence.

What is missing is my question mark  LOL

[sirineou]

9 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   They were not Hamas, they were indeperandant volunteers who Israel mistakenly thought were Hamas 

It is a typo from my lazy keyboard. what is missing is the question mark, 

the "also" should had been a clue, another clue would had been what I was replying to,

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Then you are not a person that I wish to debate with any further but I'll answer your questions and leave you with one.

 

Yes its a war but its not a war fought between two nations.  In this war, the entire military of a well equiped country is raging its war against a terrorist group that lives amongst the civillian population.  That population might have voted for Hamas as a government but they have never been recognised as a legitimate authority, they are considered as terrorists by most countries.  Given that the Israelis (without any authority to do so) will not allow Palestinians, apart from a heavily vetted few to travel outside Gaza, even to other Palestinian areas, they could hardly leave could they? The entire area of the Gaza Strip has been 'blockaded' by Israel since 2007.  Various other serious restrictions have been placed on the people of Gaza resulting in it been descibed as an 'open air prison'.  What type of attitude do you think such actions will breed?  Gaza doesn't contain enough land for its population to feed itself and has relied on huge international aid since the blockade.

 

Look at Jerusalem - people being told when and where they can pray. Farmers booted off their land and it being given to Israeli 'settlers'. Houses bulldozed. Who is going to accept such treatment?

 

Who stated that 14,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed?

 

I believe you know all of this yet you don't seem or don't want to, understand why the current situation exists.

 

So a question, one I doubt you will answer honestly.

 

I don't know where you're from or what family you might have, not that it matters but I suspect you are an American and most of us have families.  Let's say for example, that a terrorist, responsible for the deaths of many people was hiding in an apartment building and one of those apartments was occupied by your daughter.

 

Would you consider it justifiable for the authorities of your country to destroy the entire building and everyone in it, including your daughter in order to kill one terrorist? 

 

As someone in another post said, the IDF have weapons that can pinpoint down to exact vehicles (as they did with the 7 aid workers) - how the hell can you justify them taking out entire apartment buildings to target one apartment?  They have by the way, admitted using 1000lb bombs to do so.

Who stated that 14,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed?

 

Israel or would you rather believe Hamas?

 

13,000 Hamas terrorists Israel says it has killed in battle. Israel also says it killed some 1,000 gunmen inside Israel on October 7.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/icj-set-to-begin-hearings-on-nicaraguas-claim-germany-aiding-israels-genocide/

[transam]

13 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Yes, you did read that, written by the perpetrators of said state Israel.

So everything is a one-way street for you, is that so you can forget the Hamas execution spree.......?   🤔

[CharlieH]

Several Off topic and Troll posts have been removed.

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

1 hour ago, transam said:

So everything is a one-way street for you, is that so you can forget the Hamas execution spree.......?   🤔

 

Yes, same as it is for you, but what has that got to do with the reply I gave to your comment, nothing.

[placeholder]

On 4/3/2024 at 12:34 PM, Hanaguma said:

Please, enough of the hysterical references to genocide and holocaust. Neither of those are happening here.  Even using the bs numbers issued by Hamas, something like 20,000 civilians have been killed. In 6 months.  It is an amazing accomplishment that the IDF has kept casualties so low while fighting a terrorist occupation in a congested area. 

 

Don't forget that civilian casualties would be ZERO if Hamas surrendered and released their hostages. Zero. 

About those hysterical references to the Holocaust.. you mean like repeating the mantra that October the 7th is the day that the most Jews were killed since the Holocaust?

[transam]

19 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Yes, same as it is for you, but what has that got to do with the reply I gave to your comment, nothing.

It is not the same as me, you are anti-Jew, I am not, I also am not anti-Gazans, I am anti-executioners, which is what Hamas is, Israel is dealing with the clear-out of Hamas, the same as was done to clear out the German Nazis, now you tell me there were no civilian casualties doing that.....😉

Edited April 8 by transam

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

It is not the same as me, you are anti-Jew, I am not, I also am not anti-Gazans, I am anti-executioners, which is what Hamas is, Israel is dealing with the clear-out of Hamas, the same as was done to clear out the German Nazis, now you tell me there were no civilian casualties do that.....😉

 

I am not anti-Jew, I am anti-Israeli, Israel has no chance of clearing Hamas out of Gaza, if anything they have been the best recruiting sergeant ever with their methods of trying to clear them. 

As for WW2 clearing of Nazi's and civilian casualties, 80 years ago different times with different weapons systems.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

I am not anti-Jew, I am anti-Israeli, Israel has no chance of clearing Hamas out of Gaza, if anything they have been the best recruiting sergeant ever with their methods of trying to clear them. 

As for WW2 clearing of Nazi's and civilian casualties, 80 years ago different times with different weapons systems.

😂............."Different times"..................😂

 

Oh, well, never mind........🤭

[billd766]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

What is missing is my question mark  LOL

You always seem to find an excuse, wrong words, missing question mark, but never seem to answer the questions.