Immigration boss confirms the Out-In visa run is dead

[paz]

I've seen many posts here now,.......

Your incredibly long rant about Thai rules is duly noted. The posters assuming criminal behavior, probably off base.

Are you circumnavigating the rules? Absolutely. Whether you agree with them or not, they are the rules. The back to back border runs, multiple tourist visas etc. you may think that they were legal but they were always like a tax loophole. Take advantage until someone sees the problem. The Thai officials are just clamping down on people looking for loopholes like yourself.

And you missed the relevant information, which proves my point. It's not about 'back to back' - unless you consider 7 months in between visits to be 'back to back', which it logically doesn't at all.

Don't be upset. This kind Wannabe immigration officers and lawmaker just don't let detail get in between an incredibly stupid lecture to the unfortunate.

[max72]

Next step would be putting two signs : at the entry point "Welcome to Thailand" and at the exit point "Thank you for your visit. Don't come back again."

[Trouble]

My take on the whole matter is that they have let foreign visitors get away with these visa runs for years. The government knew the visa runs were being used to get around the legal requirements in place but like many things in Thailand they just did not address the matter. Well, with the increase in violence in many of the tourist areas among less desirable "tourists" they have decided enough is enough. They know that there are now many more foreigners working illegally, scamming, and involved in all sorts of activity which no society wants. (After all that should be reserved for the Thais.) They now want to put the breaks on it. Not difficult to see why if you read this web site. I say it's about time. These less than desirable "tourists" give the legitimate tourist a bad name.

[RogueLeader]

My take on the whole matter is that they have let foreign visitors get away with these visa runs for years. The government knew the visa runs were being used to get around the legal requirements in place but like many things in Thailand they just did not address the matter. Well, with the increase in violence in many of the tourist areas among less desirable "tourists" they have decided enough is enough. They know that there are now many more foreigners working illegally, scamming, and involved in all sorts of activity which no society wants. (After all that should be reserved for the Thais.) They now want to put the breaks on it. Not difficult to see why if you read this web site. I say it's about time. These less than desirable "tourists" give the legitimate tourist a bad name.

Yeah, that makes sense. Because people come to Thailand because if the rigid restrictions, the strict adherence to rules and a pervasive nanny state.

Oh, wait, what? They don't?

[Phuketboy]

Another confusing article - many references to tourist visas rather than visa exempt arrivals. Are they now saying that even on a double entry tourist visa you are not allowed to do an 'in-out'?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If you are a genuine tourist travelling around for 3-6 mths on a double entry, you would still be allowed out an in as you have the correct visa for your purpose. What they are wanting to stop is those who continually stay on tourist visas, just to stay here or work illegally. If you are continually doing visa runs or getting tourist visa to stay here, you are not a tourist are you. The message is clear, get the right visa for your purpose.

[paz]

Just to be a bit contrarian here; as much as we all complain about Thai immigration, 90 day reporting, visa runs etc, compared to many of our home countries Thailand is pretty lenient. I'm American, can't see a Mexican being allowed to essentially live in the US by going back and forward over the border. Kinda think the same would apply to a North African trying to do the same into the EU. Now I know both of these examples are economic migrants, but you get my drift

No sorry, I don't get it. Let's make a more pertinent example, An American doing back and forth to Mexico, an European doing the same to North Africa. All good with that right ?

As you hinted it's all about the economic motivation, except when some random boss in country of ridiculous human right standards (first letter T) gets worried that someone ca reside or be working illegally without a rich Thai exploiting it.

[cyborgx]

does earning money via the internet count as illegal working? I see many who are too young to get a retirement visa but earn good overseas income as programers etc. I have no worries with my retirement visa. The only thing that sucks about it is you have to be old to get one!

Technically I believe the legal answer to your question is yes. If you are physically in Thailand working (even if its code to be used in another country or on servers located in another country), then you need a work permit. Not that you are ever likely to get caught, but again this tightening of the rules is also aimed at this situation, where Non-Thais locate themselves in Thailand using out-in Visas, get paid overseas for online work, and pay no local taxes. Again the logic being that if people live in the country long-term, they should be contributing to the cost of running it....

[cyborgx]

All this talk over visa runs. It seems they are spending to much time on people doing runs when they should be working on updating how the visas work. The internet is a thing now-a-days. What kind of visa would a person need if they run or work at a US based company. Lets say this person works from home and stays in Thailand. They are not talking any thai jobs. So are they a tourist? or are they working in thailand and need a work visa for a non-thai company?

see my reply above

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

SP....sorry for the confusion. I use to have a WP when I was based in our BKK office, I no longer have one as I am on rotation work from another district. When I got my WP I had to relinquish my married visa (not sure why?)..So ever since I been coming in a on a tourist visa every 40 days or so..

Sounds like you were sold a bad one - no reason you can't have a WP on a non-imm O for marriage visa or extension.

Sounds like you were sold a bad one as well - If you apply for a work permit as a journalist and have a non-imm-O for marriage, you do have to switch to a non-imm M and give up your marriage-visa.

That is incorrect. Some immigration guy may tell you that, but it is legally allowable to hold a WP under an No-Imm O for marriage (not OA or ED). Fact.

I think that may be because, there's a specific visa category for journalsts -- one of the few occupations that has that status in terms of special visa category.

If the person was applying for a work permit for some other kind of generic occupation, I suspect gaining a work permit under a marriage based visa or extension wouldn't be a problem.

In other words, if you're going to be working as a journalist, they apparently want you on a journalists visa. Fortunately, that same issue wouldn't apply to most kinds of jobs a farang could do here.

[ovenman]

does earning money via the internet count as illegal working? I see many who are too young to get a retirement visa but earn good overseas income as programers etc. I have no worries with my retirement visa. The only thing that sucks about it is you have to be old to get one!

Technically I believe the legal answer to your question is yes. If you are physically in Thailand working (even if its code to be used in another country or on servers located in another country), then you need a work permit. Not that you are ever likely to get caught, but again this tightening of the rules is also aimed at this situation, where Non-Thais locate themselves in Thailand using out-in Visas, get paid overseas for online work, and pay no local taxes. Again the logic being that if people live in the country long-term, they should be contributing to the cost of running it....

Which of course they're not doing thru the VAT they pay on everything they purchase, fuel taxes, etc.

[Pralaad]

Just to be a bit contrarian here; as much as we all complain about Thai immigration, 90 day reporting, visa runs etc, compared to many of our home countries Thailand is pretty lenient. I'm American, can't see a Mexican being allowed to essentially live in the US by going back and forward over the border. Kinda think the same would apply to a North African trying to do the same into the EU. Now I know both of these examples are economic migrants, but you get my drift

No sorry, I don't get it. Let's make a more pertinent example, An American doing back and forth to Mexico, an European doing the same to North Africa. All good with that right ?

As you hinted it's all about the economic motivation, except when some random boss in country of ridiculous human right standards (first letter T) gets worried that someone ca reside or be working illegally without a rich Thai exploiting it.

So lets get this right.

You saying it is a breach of human rights to stop allowing people doing runs to avoid having to pay for a proper visa? and it is somehow an obligation for a country to provide some people with FREE entry stamps or allow them to remain in the country somewhat illegally?

[cyborgx]

One of the problems is that there are a lot of flaky private and Government schools, and language schools who will take back-packers, and so on. These sort of places won't assist with the documentation for teachers to get a WP or a B visa, so people who work there illegally were reliant on monthly border runs to stay in the country.

It's an open secret that even Government schools will take almost anyone just to get a white face in a classroom. As for private and language schools, well ...

That's going to have an awful lot of consequences, not just for the people who work at these places, but for their dependants and the schools themselves. There's going to an awful shortage of English teachers here soon ... Had Immi spoken to the Education ministry about that before they jumped in with both feet?

But, then, thinking things through is not a Thai trait, is it?

The solution is fixing the Work Permit for Teacher's situation, not forcing them to lie to one government department to allow them to work for another.

[deepcell]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

Humm.. I have 2 rai and a house, someone interested? Moving to Camboja ASAP. LOL

[cyborgx]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

Good point. If you are "settled with lots of property here" then you are clearly not a tourist. You should not be in the country on a tourist visa. Seems to me these are exactly the sort of people who will end up being blacklisted if they do not get themselves onto the right kind of visa.

And, if not married, not working, not 50, no family, not in school, "settled" but without enough property or investment to satisfy those rules, what kind of visa is that exactly?

A Residient. But you are probably not elligible for that. So even though they tell you you are not elligible to be a resident, you lived like one and said you were a tourist? Harsh maybe, but as many have stated, the rules have not changed, they're just weeding out the people masquerading as Tourists.

[paz]

So lets get this right.

You saying it is a breach of human rights to stop allowing people doing runs to avoid having to pay for a proper visa? and it is somehow an obligation for a country to provide some people with FREE entry stamps or allow them to remain in the country somewhat illegally?

I know it is hard for you to understand what I was saying. Perhaps repeated reading will help.Oof course the best approach would be getting over your bitter, judgmental, ill--wishing attitude, but we can't hope for that much.

[cyborgx]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

Good point. If you are "settled with lots of property here" then you are clearly not a tourist. You should not be in the country on a tourist visa. Seems to me these are exactly the sort of people who will end up being blacklisted if they do not get themselves onto the right kind of visa.

If someone settles in a country and buys lot of property without having the right to stay in that country they are being very stupid. Who in their right mind would buy lots of property based on doing visa runs?

My sentiments exactly......

[cyborgx]

The black list threat seems pretty horrible if it's just based on their "opinion" about a person. I can see that in case of an arrest and evidence proven. Imagine if it happened to you and it wasn't true especially if you are settled with lots of property here. This kind of hard core tactic should be really troubling to ALL foreigners here, no matter how totally legit you think you are. You might think this isn't about you, but to immigration you're just another SUSPECT, and don't forget that.

Good point. If you are "settled with lots of property here" then you are clearly not a tourist. You should not be in the country on a tourist visa. Seems to me these are exactly the sort of people who will end up being blacklisted if they do not get themselves onto the right kind of visa.

If someone settles in a country and buys lot of property without having the right to stay in that country they are being very stupid. Who in their right mind would buy lots of property based on doing visa runs?

I know one guy who does this tourist stuff and is building a resort................. ...............in his birds name.................

Which us illegal and he could lose all his investment to either the government or his "bird". I expect a new bleeding heart thread in the near future "Lost all my money building a resort" soon..... LOL

[paz]

a thai database of stolen passports in thailand would have done the job, easy and cheap.

Is really incredible somebody can fly with a stolen passport.

It wouldn't needed to be a Thai database. Interpol provides a cheap, efficient database of ALL stolen or lost passport in the world, and they made that very clear in the immediate aftermath of MH370. Unfortunately some countries like Thailand and Malaysia do not routinely use it, for reasons better known to themselves.

Instead what Thailand will do now is to setup their own fingerprint checking system and god know what else, with a very expensive system that will be a blessing to someone in the right position to choose it, sell and run it.

We can reconvene here after it will be in place to see if it will be linked to the Interpol system.

[Gulfsailor]

does earning money via the internet count as illegal working? I see many who are too young to get a retirement visa but earn good overseas income as programers etc. I have no worries with my retirement visa. The only thing that sucks about it is you have to be old to get one!

Technically I believe the legal answer to your question is yes. If you are physically in Thailand working (even if its code to be used in another country or on servers located in another country), then you need a work permit. Not that you are ever likely to get caught, but again this tightening of the rules is also aimed at this situation, where Non-Thais locate themselves in Thailand using out-in Visas, get paid overseas for online work, and pay no local taxes. Again the logic being that if people live in the country long-term, they should be contributing to the cost of running it....

Which of course they're not doing thru the VAT they pay on everything they purchase, fuel taxes, etc.

All Thai people pay VAT and duties on goods and in excess also pay income tax. Furthermore that fuel and electricity you are using is subsidised. Nearly 200 Billion Baht annually it is costing.

My suggestion is to offer anyone who is willing to stay long time and is not employed (so that includes retirement) a kind of tax residence, where in exchange for paying the tax and social security contributions on a certain minimum salary (say 50,000 a month same as minimum for WP) one gets an extension and do the 90 day reporting where they show they are paying up. That way they pay their share and even if employed illegally not much money is lost. If one needs a hospital the social security can cover it.

[edwardandtubs]

Nothing stopping anyone spending the night in a 150 baht guesthouse in Poipet and then coming back the next day. People will just find a way round like they always do.

[Mojomor]

One of the things that perpelxes me, is they are suspicious of the Vietnamese (see OP). However, next year 2015, Asean will move to free movement of labour, we are told. So, it appears, the Viets are being watched closely this year, but can do what they like next year. This is truly bizarre.

[edwardandtubs]

One of the things that perpelxes me, is they are suspicious of the Vietnamese (see OP). However, next year 2015, Asean will move to free movement of labour, we are told. So, it appears, the Viets are being watched closely this year, but can do what they like next year. This is truly bizarre.

Free movement of labour is for a limited number of skilled professionals.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

TallGuyJohninBKK

On the other hand, back when I was a real tourist here before retiring, I'd sometimes make 3 or 4 visa-exempt entry trips per year just out of convenience vs going to get a tourist visa, and each time staying anywhere from a week to 3 weeks, always with hotel reservations in various places, of course. I'm assuming that kind of pattern ought to be OK under the newly announced enforcement. But who knows???

----------------------------------

****I live in Thailand now on long term visa however I have a friend who has been coming over sometimes with me othertimes alone for 14 years and has faced trouble before when they had back to back rules. He was and does make a very good salary so was coming over to Thailand on visa exemt entry evrey couple of months from USA and then back to Thailand for 2--3 weeks . After third trip he was told he had been in and out 3 times within 6 months and although he was let in then would be refused entry again for 90 days so it didn't even make any difference that he was going all the way back to USA between visits. What is he supposed to do now? Get a 2 month tourist visa from Thai embassy or consulate in USA every time he plans a trip to Thailand even though he is only staying 2--3 weeks otherwise they will consider him using back to back visa exempt entries and ban him for life? Stupid , complicated rules that do not take in every situation just leave it to some guy at airport to determine whatever he wants.

There was a relatively short time years back when Immigration did enforce something like a "no more than 90 days of visa exempt stays within any 180 day" period. But that policy was later abolished and hasn't been in place for some years now.

Obviously, back then, if someone was making three or four visa exempt vacation trips spread out during a 12 month year, all of relatively short duration, that wouldn't likely have been a problem. But that's no longer the policy now, and hasn't been anytime lately.

As for U.S. folks, including myself, I don't think there's ever been any problem with obtaining repeated tourist visas from the U.S. consulates. And I don't see anything in this latest Immigration policy change likely affecting that. It's not like visa runners are going to be making back and forth trips between Thailand and the U.S.

But back in that period of time, the official Thai consulate and staff in my area was perceived as being relatively bureaucratic and not particularly welcoming. So it was easy to simply avoid them entirely.

[axact]

Question:

On some occasions do visa runs from Laos to Thailand. I enter and exit Thailand on same day. I know several people in Vientiane who do same.

Will we be affected?

I was wondering about this, in theory if they inforce this rule then people living in Laos doing a monthly border run will be refused entry into Thailand, even it seems if you get a tourist visa assuming they enforce the 9 months in one year rule.

I have a year visa in laos & will have to stop regularly shopping in Nong Khai !

You can get yearly Laos visas for less than $500 which is cheaper & less hassle than doing monthly visa runs anyway. message me if you need details.

Laos yearly visas need no reporting every 90 days ! more enlightened than Thailand for sure

[Genericnic]

After wading through the 18 pages of comments here (and numerous other threads that are similar), what I see in the comments of those that don't/can't get a visa/work permit/etc. is a sense of entitlement on their part.

"I am from (add the appropriate country) and I am entitled to be here." "I spend a lot of money while I am here so I am entitled to be here." "I have property here so I am entitle to be here." "I have a family here so I am entitled to be here." You can add more if you like.

Absent proper paperwork in the form of a visa/work permit/etc., you are not entitled to be here. Your entitlement to be in any country ends as soon as you leave your home country (or the EU as applicable). Your ability to spend time in Thailand in excess of what is allowed under visa exempt or VOA rules requires that you comply with the laws of the Kingdom just as Thais are required to comply with the laws of your home country if they go there. There is no entitlement for you to be here.

If you are not able to meet the requirements for staying here - well, life is tough. People are turned away daily from my home country who are not able to meet the requirements to stay there. It may not be "fair" but life is like that.

Just my $0.02 worth.

David

[ukrules]

does earning money via the internet count as illegal working? I see many who are too young to get a retirement visa but earn good overseas income as programers etc. I have no worries with my retirement visa. The only thing that sucks about it is you have to be old to get one!

Technically I believe the legal answer to your question is yes. If you are physically in Thailand working (even if its code to be used in another country or on servers located in another country), then you need a work permit. Not that you are ever likely to get caught, but again this tightening of the rules is also aimed at this situation, where Non-Thais locate themselves in Thailand using out-in Visas, get paid overseas for online work, and pay no local taxes. Again the logic being that if people live in the country long-term, they should be contributing to the cost of running it....

You just made that up, everything in that post is pure speculation on your part.

If this was the case they would not want any oil / gas offshore workers staying in Thailand, same principle. Another example is investment income, it's quite legitimate to live in Thailand on whatever visa you have including retirement and pay zero tax on investment income earned overseas in previous years. Many people do this and pay zero tax on it, all within the rules.

[max72]

does earning money via the internet count as illegal working? I see many who are too young to get a retirement visa but earn good overseas income as programers etc. I have no worries with my retirement visa. The only thing that sucks about it is you have to be old to get one!

Technically I believe the legal answer to your question is yes. If you are physically in Thailand working (even if its code to be used in another country or on servers located in another country), then you need a work permit. Not that you are ever likely to get caught, but again this tightening of the rules is also aimed at this situation, where Non-Thais locate themselves in Thailand using out-in Visas, get paid overseas for online work, and pay no local taxes. Again the logic being that if people live in the country long-term, they should be contributing to the cost of running it....

but what about if you are not moving a penny in Thailand, like buying and selling stocks in the USA NYSE/NASDAQ with your laptop with an american broker ? There is no connection with any bank account in Thailand, a single Thai company, a single Thai people....you are phisically in Thailand yes, but it is like if you play videogames, let's say videopoker ....What about if you use a paper account with real time data ?

This is not working , it's like playing because there are no real money involved, but if the account is not paper and it's real, are you working in Thailand ??

Hmmm...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Nothing stopping anyone spending the night in a 150 baht guesthouse in Poipet and then coming back the next day. People will just find a way round like they always do.

Except it's not at all clear that a visa runner spending an extra day or week or month outside Thailand before returning will avoid hassles under this latest Immigration enforcement approach.

If doing what you suggest was all it would take to avoid problems with repeated visa exempt entries, then Thai Immigration would be accomplishing little to nothing. From the sound of things, (though everyone will have to wait and see how this whole mess actually sorts out in real life) they're not likely to make it so easy on those folks.

[paz]

does earning money via the internet count as illegal working? I see many who are too young to get a retirement visa but earn good overseas income as programers etc. I have no worries with my retirement visa. The only thing that sucks about it is you have to be old to get one!

Technically I believe the legal answer to your question is yes. If you are physically in Thailand working (even if its code to be used in another country or on servers located in another country), then you need a work permit. Not that you are ever likely to get caught, but again this tightening of the rules is also aimed at this situation, where Non-Thais locate themselves in Thailand using out-in Visas, get paid overseas for online work, and pay no local taxes. Again the logic being that if people live in the country long-term, they should be contributing to the cost of running it....

but what about if you are not moving a penny in Thailand, like buying and selling stocks in the USA NYSE/NASDAQ with your laptop with an american broker ? There is no connection with any bank account in Thailand, a single Thai company, a single Thai people....you are phisically in Thailand yes, but it is like if you play videogames, let's say videopoker ....What about if you use a paper account with real time data ?

This is not working , it's like playing because there are no real money involved, but if the account is not paper and it's real, are you working in Thailand ??

Hmmm...

That matter (hugely off topic) has been debated countless times in this forum.

I've seen an "opinion" in writing on a newspaper, from an immigration provincial office that trading is not considered work, and I've seen people claiming otherwise.

But since this is Thailand, and there is no known legal precedent, each one is left with his/her best judgement. That certainly includes to shut up about what one does and doesn't with the computer at home.

[max72]

After wading through the 18 pages of comments here (and numerous other threads that are similar), what I see in the comments of those that don't/can't get a visa/work permit/etc. is a sense of entitlement on their part.

"I am from (add the appropriate country) and I am entitled to be here." "I spend a lot of money while I am here so I am entitled to be here." "I have property here so I am entitle to be here." "I have a family here so I am entitled to be here." You can add more if you like.

Absent proper paperwork in the form of a visa/work permit/etc., you are not entitled to be here. Your entitlement to be in any country ends as soon as you leave your home country (or the EU as applicable). Your ability to spend time in Thailand in excess of what is allowed under visa exempt or VOA rules requires that you comply with the laws of the Kingdom just as Thais are required to comply with the laws of your home country if they go there. There is no entitlement for you to be here.

If you are not able to meet the requirements for staying here - well, life is tough. People are turned away daily from my home country who are not able to meet the requirements to stay there. It may not be "fair" but life is like that.

Just my $0.02 worth.

David

You didn t understand.

I have said-in my case- that I am entitled to be here as tourist and buy a condo in my name as tourist and not for this reason it means i work illegaly.

I never overstayed for more than 1 day. I get my tourist visa,sometimes i go to Thailand for just 1 month and i use the visa exempt.

There is no reason why i should be refused, for which grounds ? I have never broke any Thai law.

But if the immigration officier is in bad mood and thinks I have too many stamps, he can turn me away.

This is like a russian rulette, not clear rules, strict or not strict. I don't like to depend on the mood of the random guy who will check my passport.