Insufficient mains pressure, simple solution?

[canopy]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

[cornishcarlos]

Crossy has a very good schematic for a tank and valve set up. He'll be along at some point, I'm sure...

[RichCor]

In the mean time, take a look at these two most recent DYI posts

Water Filter Position (Before or After Pump) and the image on Post #8

Started by BBJ, 2015-10-12 10:20

To pump or not to pump

Started by Sophon, 2015-10-06 16:11

...discussing the benefits of a reserve tank that's normally bypassed

[blackcab]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

Your idea is most of the way there. You've talked about a pump, a storage tank and connecting these to the municipal supply and also your house.

If practical, you might want to consider putting the tank and the pump outside. Done correctly it would probably look nicer and you would hear the pump less.

[stoneyboy]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

Your idea is most of the way there. You've talked about a pump, a storage tank and connecting these to the municipal supply and also your house.

If practical, you might want to consider putting the tank and the pump outside. Done correctly it would probably look nicer and you would hear the pump less.

And when there are several days of water outage as the OP suggests you run the tank out in a day or so and are still left with no water.

[stoneyboy]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

By vat I assume you mean the old school Thai scoop found in most village bathrooms a simple concrete open tank sometimes tiled on the inside.

A submersible pump would work in this instance yes but I don't think that's the safest option or the most reliable.

As you say it would be better to plumb in an outlet from the lower part of the vat.

Either way with multi day outages it's going to be difficult to not run out of water,much depends on the daily consumption of those living in the house,if it's minimal it would work but I've run my 1000 litre tank out in a day after not realising the towns water was off.

[wayned]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

Your idea is most of the way there. You've talked about a pump, a storage tank and connecting these to the municipal supply and also your house.

If practical, you might want to consider putting the tank and the pump outside. Done correctly it would probably look nicer and you would hear the pump less.

And when there are several days of water outage as the OP suggests you run the tank out in a day or so and are still left with no water.

Then you do like I did. I have 12 big ongs that I collect water from roof run off. When there is no local water supply I use a submersible pump to fill the main house tank as needed. I also have another pump connected to one of the ongs that is plumbed directly into a second tap in the kitchen for drinking water.

The only problem that I have is when the electric goes off for days, then it's the old syphon and bucket brigade. But that hasn't happened in a long time, the outage last week was 14 hours but is normally less than 5. One of the joys of living in the "boonies"

[Crossy]

This is my 'usual' diagram, size the tank to suit your water usage and 'no water' periods.

Do not pump directly from the mains, it is illegal and potentially hazardous to your (and others) health.

[cornishcarlos]

This is my 'usual' diagram, size the tank to suit your water usage and 'no water' periods.

pump setup 2.jpg

Do not pump directly from the mains, it is illegal and potentially hazardous to your (and others) health.

That's the diagram I was thinking about

Interesting about pumping direct from the mains, didn't know it was illegal ? See many buildings with a pump directly after the meter..

[canopy]

Observations:

1. I would never pump from the mains and understand the problems, but thanks for the heads up anyway.
2. I don't understand why some say the vat will run out. It seems the normal size found in bathrooms here, 1300 liters and hence enough to last for weeks since the household uses less than 2000 liters per month.
3. Remember the "simple solution" part. Not wanting to invest in new tanks and such for a house that isn't mine.
4. My proposed solution is MUCH different than anything people are talking about. And since it is just one sentence long I was hoping someone could comment on it.
5. Please help recommend a type of pump for the vat. Watsadu has a whole aisle full of pumps. I have no idea what I need.

[Crossy]

Ok, I would NOT use a submersible, there are loads of small, self-priming (important) peripheral pumps around which will do the trick. something like the "MQS130B AUTO" on this page http://www.lucky-pro.com/products/Other_Pumps.asp

I would not attempt to make a hole in your existing tank, hang a pipe over the side to the pump.

Something like this:-



No need for a foot valve in the tank with a self-primer.

IMPORTANT NOTE Even with a self-priming pump you need to fill it with water before running it, it will than happily pull all the air out of the inlet pipe and give good water pressure.

Using a self-primer also means that if you run the tank dry you won't fry your pump.

EDIT This would do the trick http://www.directtoshop.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/en/directtoshop/plumbing/water-pumps/automatic-pumps/lucky-lp-mqs138b-an-180w-constant-pump-p245249 4,160 Baht at HomePro

[jacko45k]

The picture above is what I have at my place.

Although obviously the line to the pump does not go up and over the tank edge

Plus a ball-cock valve for the supply to the tank.

I actually turn the pump off sometimes as, fortunately, my incoming supply is quite reliable and of sufficient pressure to feed the house most days.

I am being miserly and think I am saving electricity.

Edited October 16, 2015 by jacko45k

[DGS1244]

"Do not pump directly from the mains, it is illegal and potentially hazardous to your (and others) health."

There is also another reason, in some areas where there are either old pipes or badly installed ones, if you pump direct you can cause the supply pipes to collapse. Then you have real problems.

[malt25]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

Your idea is most of the way there. You've talked about a pump, a storage tank and connecting these to the municipal supply and also your house.

If practical, you might want to consider putting the tank and the pump outside. Done correctly it would probably look nicer and you would hear the pump less.

And when there are several days of water outage as the OP suggests you run the tank out in a day or so and are still left with no water.

Mmmmmmm.... maybe an additional tank ?

[Sutty]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

Your idea is most of the way there. You've talked about a pump, a storage tank and connecting these to the municipal supply and also your house.

If practical, you might want to consider putting the tank and the pump outside. Done correctly it would probably look nicer and you would hear the pump less.

And when there are several days of water outage as the OP suggests you run the tank out in a day or so and are still left with no water.

A good sized tank for your basic needs should last you when supply is off having spoken to long standing residents of Village when water goes off never been more than a day never. So we fitted a 1500ltr tank with pump (pump and tank can be bypassed separately reason I keep a flow through tank to house so water does not stagnate I just bypass pump) then throw a switch to pit pump into system turn on and away you go if needed I run pump once a week again to keep insides fresh. So far only about 3 hrs of no mains water.

[carlyai]

"Do not pump directly from the mains, it is illegal and potentially hazardous to your (and others) health."

There is also another reason, in some areas where there are either old pipes or badly installed ones, if you pump direct you can cause the supply pipes to collapse. Then you have real problems.

God you learn a lot on this forum.

I thought it was all the grog I'd drunk in the past, but years ago when Pattaya had no water, I had this big pump and used to suck the water down the pipes to our place, bugger everyone else.

Maybe it wasn't the grog but all the dead fish and things (condom contents?) that I sucked into our tank.

Probably lucky we didn't drink the tank water then.

[canopy]

A couple questions about the latest schematic:

A laundry machine w/ dry cycle draws water from time to time for up to a 5 hour period. would the pump need primed every step along the way?

Would it be reasonable to omit the pressure tank?

Must the recommended pump be placed below the water level? There isn't real convenient floor space and so above the vat would be preferred.

Why is it good to stay away from submersible pumps? They would seem to solve any priming, floor space, and elevation issues.

[Crossy]

A laundry machine w/ dry cycle draws water from time to time for up to a 5 hour period. would the pump need primed every step along the way?

Would it be reasonable to omit the pressure tank?

Must the recommended pump be placed below the water level? There isn't real convenient floor space and so above the vat would be preferred.

Why is it good to stay away from submersible pumps? They would seem to solve any priming, floor space, and elevation issues.

No, the pump will stay primed once it and the inlet pipe is full of water.

No, the pressure tank is part of the pump assembly, stops the pressure switch rapid cycling and frying the motor.

No, above the water level is fine, a foot valve in the tank would be recommended (although not vital) to stop the pump losing prime (and taking time to get going).

Low cost submersibles don't come with the necessary controls, won't provide the needed pressure and can leak allowing electricity out into the water.

[canopy]

Excellent, thank you so much Crossy! You are a great asset to the community.

[recom273]

...

Do not pump directly from the mains, it is illegal and potentially hazardous to your (and others) health.

Could you elaborate ? We use this method, in a rented house that our landlord installed.

In the day time, there is insufficient power to draw any water from the mains, at night the self priming pump pushes water up to the tank on the roof.

I understand what you are saying, that an intermediate settlement tank should be used to draw from but the standard practice in out area is to draw directly from the mains ( which I guess is why there is no pressure by the time the water reaches us )

Is the water authority suddenly going to fine us after 5 years ?

[Crossy]

...

Do not pump directly from the mains, it is illegal and potentially hazardous to your (and others) health.

Could you elaborate ? We use this method, in a rented house that our landlord installed.

In the day time, there is insufficient power to draw any water from the mains, at night the self priming pump pushes water up to the tank on the roof.

I understand what you are saying, that an intermediate settlement tank should be used to draw from but the standard practice in out area is to draw directly from the mains ( which I guess is why there is no pressure by the time the water reaches us )

Is the water authority suddenly going to fine us after 5 years ?

Probably not.

But consider what will happen if one of your neighbours leaves the end of his hose in his fish pond whilst filling it.

Just because something is 'standard practice' does not make it right or legal.

[robertson468]

A real basic house in a village is plumbed to the mains, but sometimes there are multi-day outages and even when on the pressure can be insufficient to turn on a shower heater or run a clothes washing machine.

I was wondering if there is something real simple to provide good pressure and a reliable water supply. My (uneducated and possibly bad) idea is a check valve at the entry to the house and then connect a demand pump to draw from the big vat of water in the bathroom and outlet it to the plumbing. Is this a good solution? If so what kind of pump would be recommended? Are there submersibles? Otherwise I suppose it would be necessary to connect the pump to the vat drain so the pump and incoming plumbing are below the water level of the vat. Any tips / advice appreciated.

Your idea is most of the way there. You've talked about a pump, a storage tank and connecting these to the municipal supply and also your house.

If practical, you might want to consider putting the tank and the pump outside. Done correctly it would probably look nicer and you would hear the pump less.

And when there are several days of water outage as the OP suggests you run the tank out in a day or so and are still left with no water.

Clearly you are a bit short of ingenuity. Once the municipal water runs out, you call your local water supply people who come with their water truck and top up your outside tank (should be either 1 or 2,000 liter). This means when everyone else has no water...............you do!! Incidentally, I have installed tanks and pumps in my four Town Houses which are supplied by municipal water, which as the OP says can flow VERY slowly, but flowing in to the tank 24/7, tops it up nicely and you can use with the pump giving a good water pressure when you need it. My Town Houses also have upstairs bedrooms, which are well served by this system.

[stoneyboy]

What I find quite amazing regarding this particular question posed by the OP is the fact that many posters are telling him to go buy a tank which he clearly doesn't want to do,he wants to use the existing concrete scoop found in most rural villages.

We all know that to ensure you have enough water it's best to install one or two large tanks which in the event of water outages allows you enough water until it's on again but I am under the impression he doesn't want anything of the sort.

A simple outlet to the bottom of the scoop and then a pump to the areas he needs water IE washing machine etc will suffice,given that this is a Thai rural dwelling it's unlikely the place is over run with plumbing any way,probably a feed to the bathroom which in turn feeds a tap for a washing machine etc.

Also rural Thai people aren't going to be buying water from the municipal truck anytime soon when there is an outage.

It's a classic Farang answer to a problem that the OP wants solving in a Thai way,from people sitting in purpose built properties with all the luxuries at hand,rush out and spend 15 k on tanks,pipe and pumps and you will have no problem.

You don't need a degree in engineering to install a pump,tank and some plastic pvc pipe work,incidentally when I moved into my current rented property the English guy living there before had a black dustbin as his tank and an ageing 2000 baht pump,he never knew the whole time he was there if the water was off as he obviously used so little.

Edited October 16, 2015 by stoneyboy

[RichCor]

Also rural Thai people aren't going to be buying water from the municipal truck anytime soon when there is an outage.

You haven't observed many rural Thai funerals then.

Besides the tents, lights, fans, tables, chairs delivered and set up also come the plates, spoons, forks, and lots of glasses ... and a way to keep cleaning them throughout the days of reuse. So here up in the rural north they'll usually rent two large portable tanks and the water truck comes by from the dam/reservoir to fill them.

While I agree that most rural Thai won't buy water during a long outage, doesn't mean the option isn't available to most/many of them.

[sandyf]

Also rural Thai people aren't going to be buying water from the municipal truck anytime soon when there is an outage.

If the Thai people in our area did not buy from the truck they would not have any water.

[bankruatsteve]

Also rural Thai people aren't going to be buying water from the municipal truck anytime soon when there is an outage.

If the Thai people in our area did not buy from the truck they would not have any water.

Yah. Some places do, others do not. It's not a given for sure.

[callaway]

Hey Canopy, had the same problem with our supply. Easily overcome. Use a storage tank, capacity based on usage for duration of no supply from mains. Install a tank with a manual ball float valve that shuts off when tank is full. This will keep your tank full at all times that the village has water supply. Then install a pressure pump feeding to house supply. This will both ensure you have a water supply when supply from village is interupted and also improve the pressure supply to the house. See attachment as to how to fit. Hope this helps.storage tank and pressure pump.pdf

Edited October 16, 2015 by callaway

[Jonathon]

As a guide to tank capacity normal "western" design figure for consumption would be 200 litres per person per day. Of course it could be more here where multiple showers are the norm. If you also suffer from lengthy power outages then a high level tank will be necessary, but will of course increase pumping costs. Costs could be mitigated by using direct mains feed when available.

The village water here normally carries a good deal of sediment, so best have a settlement tank before the water is pumped to the main tank, don't just rely on a filter.

[canopy]

As a guide to tank capacity normal "western" design figure for consumption would be 200 litres per person per day. Of course it could be more here

A few pails of water for a shower is nothing compared to western shower with a strong, continuous flow for 20 minutes or however long. Thai's I am familiar with don't come close to 200 liters a day and perhaps not watering big grass lawns every day is part of it. But anyway in a case like this it's a whole lot more accurate to simply look at the monthly water bill.

And once again it is impractical and unnecessary to install a new tank and accessories for this and it is surprising how many people continue to suggest that. Thankfully, the question has been answered perfectly on the first page if one could read a little bit about the topic before posting.

[canopy]

The super simple solution is installed and mostly fantastic results. All the taps and shower are very powerful, much more pressure than the mains ever provided even with this small 180W pump (the exact model Crossy recommended in fact). The mains have been out for 4 days in a row and are still down so it was installed just in time for whatever their latest problem is and the reserve left in the vat remains very good.

One snafoo however. When running the laundry machine, the pump comes on extremely briefly, then shuts off briefly. This cycle happens over and over. The wash cycle progresses but hardly any water makes it to the clothes and they don't get fully wet even. I came up with a work around which is to turn the tap on in the vat creating a loop where the pump is always running while the laundry machine runs. Wondering if there might be a more efficient solution.

Also I plan to post a picture when it is all final for others in a similar situation to ponder.