Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, citybiker said:

SNP being Professional ?

Many journalist are asking an SNP the same basic simple question:

"So not securing anything in writing from the EU in regards to membership is classed as professional, all we got yesterday was there is a feeling within the EU".

 

The EU has made it abundantly clear that they will not enter into formal negotiations with Scotland while it remains part of the UK. I am uncertain as to how to address your point otherwise. Informal discussions have proven positive time and again, and the expressed intent of many senior EU officials is that Scotland would be a welcome addition to the EU as long as it seceded from the UK in a legally recognised manner.

 

9 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Brexit is unknown territory due to the old guard of Cameron & Osbourne arrogance & total expectation of remaining so the onnishambles is currently a clean sheet which TM is now dealing with.

 

TM was part of the government before the referendum, and therefore part of the team who failed to prepare for the possibility of Brexit. Since then, we have seen a failure of cohesion and strategy within the Tory party and a failure of leadership from the PM as she allows her party to tear itself apart. Sadly, this is also allowed to happen unchecked because Labour is in even more disarray.

 

13 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Companies bailing is not to be confusing with subsidiary Europe locations.

I will be honest that I really don't get this or the point previously. I am willing to give it a go if you can rephrase it.

 

14 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell hit the nail on the head, it's a damn shame the abysmal SNP should drag itself out of 20 years of blaming Thatcher, major and the Tories and improve and focus on its own poor domestic governance.

 

Can you provide examples of its poor domestic governance, preferably in a UK context (because, let's face it, the uk in general is going to hell in a handcart).

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, whatawonderfulday said:

The old "ones" are the best

That's what I keep telling me.

?

I'm too old to think about, worry about or even consider discussions on politics so I try to inject some humour.

Slate me.

[citybiker]

 

Can you provide examples of its poor domestic governance, preferably in a UK context (because, let's face it, the uk in general is going to hell in a handcart).

UK going to hell in a hand cart?

Different but I think your focus is on Brexit?

Poor domestic governance: primarily narrowing the focus on the SNP.

Agreed, TM was part of the current DC Government however Cameron was leading so the issues lay at Cameron's door.

The only party in more disarray than Labour is the SNP..

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[Basil B]

2 hours ago, citybiker said:

Scottish Labour maybe a joke however the SNP's primary focus is cling on to the EU no matter what.

Wrong...

 

The SNP have only one objective,     ...Independence

 

They did not win the last referendum and before the last vote was counted they started calling for another...

 

Surely if   ...and if they were to get another referendum ...and if they actually win do you not think it reasonable for those opposed to call for another referendum???  

 

My thoughts on referendum is they rules should be changed  for all referendums so only if there was a clear majority (say 65%) in favour would the motion be carried.

 

 

[citybiker]

Wrong...
 
The SNP have only one objective,     ...Independence
 
They did not win the last referendum and before the last vote was counted they started calling for another...
 
Surely if   ...and if they were to get another referendum ...and if they actually win do you not think it reasonable for those opposed to call for another referendum???  
 
My thoughts on referendum is they rules should be changed  for all referendums so only if there was a clear majority (say 65%) in favour would the motion be carried.
 
 

Independence with trying to join the EU, ill await to proven otherwise.


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[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

UK going to hell in a hand cart?

Different but I think your focus is on Brexit?

Poor domestic governance: primarily narrowing the focus on the SNP.

Agreed, TM was part of the current DC Government however Cameron was leading so the issues lay at Cameron's door.

The only party in more disarray than Labour is the SNP..

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OK, I actually thought you wanted to contribute to the debate but the above is simply biased froth with literally nothing to support your statements.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Wrong...

 

The SNP have only one objective,     ...Independence

 

They did not win the last referendum and before the last vote was counted they started calling for another...

 

Surely if   ...and if they were to get another referendum ...and if they actually win do you not think it reasonable for those opposed to call for another referendum???  

 

My thoughts on referendum is they rules should be changed  for all referendums so only if there was a clear majority (say 65%) in favour would the motion be carried.

 

 

 

I think I agree with you, but this is the system we ended up with. And now we are in a position every bit as undesirable as Brexit (the schism in the country rather than the actual process).

[Basil B]

1 minute ago, citybiker said:

 

Independence with trying to join the EU, ill await to proven otherwise.


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I do not think the SNP really want to join the EU, just an excuse to have another referendum, as you pointed out in your previous post there are many conditions the EU will insist on that will turn the stomachs of most Scott's 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Basil B said:

I do not think the SNP really want to join the EU, just an excuse to have another referendum, as you pointed out in your previous post there are many conditions the EU will insist on that will turn the stomachs of most Scott's 

Scots in general have expressed a desire to remain in the EU. Upon conclusion of a successful independence referendum, I see the SNP dissolving into a panoply of other parties - they have quite a broad spectrum of views united under the desire for independence. Once that has been achieved, they have no shared objective. It is quite possible that a totally different party will return us to the EU.

[citybiker]

I do not think the SNP really want to join the EU, just an excuse to have another referendum, as you pointed out in your previous post there are many conditions the EU will insist on that will turn the stomachs of most Scott's 

I've absolutely no intention to a froth debate (excuse if that impression) and very simply contribute to a balanced unbiased facts and constructive viewpoints.

I'm on a few forums debating exactly the issue and it's interesting the same points are being raised in various disguises. Half my family remains is Scotland and I've witnessed first hand SNP canvassing and campaigning and their attitude and tactics and deplorable to near disgusting to say the least.

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[mommysboy]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I think I agree with you, but this is the system we ended up with. And now we are in a position every bit as undesirable as Brexit (the schism in the country rather than the actual process).

 

I would imagine the next independence referendum will be 2044, and by that time hopefully it will be along the lines of a 60% vote in order to overturn the status quo, and a further safeguard might be the need to secure a positive result across a broad quorum of regions.  Pro union Islands should have the option of remaining part of the UK.  Anyway, that is for another generation to decide, because this generation decided the matter just 2 years ago.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, citybiker said:

I've absolutely no intention to a froth debate (excuse if that impression) and very simply contribute to a balanced unbiased facts and constructive viewpoints.

I'm on a few forums debating exactly the issue and it's interesting the same points are being raised in various disguises. Half my family remains is Scotland and I've witnessed first hand SNP canvassing and campaigning and their attitude and tactics and deplorable to near disgusting to say the least.

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The 2014 referendum was played out in the media and on here with many people making claims that they proposed as fact, such as 'Scottish independence is anti-english' or 'the SNP's domestic governance is deplorable' but when asked to provide evidence, there is nothing to back up these claims, yet they get repeated constantly. The danger is that people end up believing them, even though they fail to stand up to scrutiny.

 

Even there, you write of deplorable SNP canvassing tactics without anything to validate this. Words such as  'disgusting' are very powerful - I don't want to suggest that you are misrepresenting anything, but I think it is only fair that you provide context.

[citybiker]

OK, I actually thought you wanted to contribute to the debate but the above is simply biased froth with literally nothing to support your statements.

Please elaborate on biased froth?

Or is a open dislike for a political party frowned upon?

I'm fully aware of how passionate this issue is yet I've shown no indication of froth that I can see..


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[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, citybiker said:

 

 

Please elaborate on biased froth?

Or is a open dislike for a political party frowned upon?

I'm fully aware of how passionate this issue is yet I've shown no indication of froth that I can see..


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I think I addressed this in my previous post, but if you want specifics:

 

You decried the SNP's domestic performance and I asked you to elaborate. Your response was "Poor domestic governance: primarily narrowing the focus on the SNP."

That is what I mean by froth - a lack of reasoning to back up a significant claim.

 

I also suggested that the Tory party was in dissaray because of internal power struggles and their failure to plan for Brexit. You responded with "The only party in more disarray than Labour is the SNP.".

Again, that is a very strong statement to make in the current climate, and again you offer no evidence to back it up.

 

 

[citybiker]

I think I addressed this in my previous post, but if you want specifics:
 
You decried the SNP's domestic performance and I asked you to elaborate. Your response was "Poor domestic governance: primarily narrowing the focus on the SNP."
That is what I mean by froth - a lack of reasoning to back up a significant claim.
 
I also suggested that the Tory party was in dissaray because of internal power struggles and their failure to plan for Brexit. You responded with "The only party in more disarray than Labour is the SNP.".
Again, that is a very strong statement to make in the current climate, and again you offer no evidence to back it up.
 
 

As Froth equates to rabid, we'll respectfully disagree.

Reasoning, ok.... permissible only with factual relevant up to date links otherwise it's only classed as a viewpoint.




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[elliss]

9 hours ago, nontabury said:

Were you outside the polling stations,asking where they had been born?

If you had,you would know that citizens of the Irish republic, plus citizens from all EU countries,resident in Scotland were also entittled to vote. What I do not know,

is if they did.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

We have had more than enough lies from Brexiteers. Clean this up now. Reported.

       Would  that be  the  flying  Scotsman  @ full steam.

          Ex PM Cameron  got it all wrong

 offering  a  out vote vote , there was never a out option planned . Big mistake.

      Wee lass ,  all mouth and no brain ,will also die a polical death .Asap.

Edited March 14, 2017 by elliss

[overherebc]

As far as Seaweed and her followers go some parts of the old Spike Milligan show Q8 spring to mind. Especially where a sketch ended and they all milled about muttering 'what are we going to do now, what are we going to do now'

That's how I picture a yes vote for independence.

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

 

Have you been following the omnishambles that is the Tory Brexit strategy? That is making it up as they go along. The SNP is much more professional than that shower of liars and turncoats.

 

Were you as critical of Thatcher, Major etc, when they negotiated special treatment for the UK within the EU? Why should an elected leader not follow the will of the electorate and fight for what they consider best for their country?

  The SNP professional,you've got to be joking,and as for making things up as they go along,the SNP are in a class of their own.

 Regarding the UK presently being exempt from certain EU laws and regulations. This I believe was negotiated by a country of 60/70 million people, that has the 4/5 strongest economy in the world.A country that the Brussels Beurocrats knew would be in a position to be a nett contributor to the E.U. This  cannot be claimed by a country with only 5 million and whose economy is extremely weak,and unfortunately whose prospects do not seem to bright,were it to go alone.Do you honestly think that the EU countries need another Greece.

 

 

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

Independence with trying to join the EU, ill await to proven otherwise.


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Well Alex Salmonds, he who said,not another referendum in my lifetime,thinks otherwise.

 

 

[DILLIGAD]

The English should have a vote to see who still want Scotland in GB IMO.


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[oxo1947]

Gosh the life expectancy in Scotland must be very short. Nicola Sturgeon's "once in a generation" vote to leave the UK means that a generation in Scotland is only 4 years!......................

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Scots in general have expressed a desire to remain in the EU. Upon conclusion of a successful independence referendum, I see the SNP dissolving into a panoply of other parties - they have quite a broad spectrum of views united under the desire for independence. Once that has been achieved, they have no shared objective. It is quite possible that a totally different party will return us to the EU.

 A desire to REMAIN in the union. That's the first of many obstacles. As has been pointed out to you, by many people, Scotland would have to apply as a new applicant,with all the strings that would attach,I.e MUST  join the EURO, MUST agree to become part of the Schengen area. Strangely,the SNP have not trumpeted the advantage of these and others requirements. I wonder why.

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The 2014 referendum was played out in the media and on here with many people making claims that they proposed as fact, such as 'Scottish independence is anti-english' or 'the SNP's domestic governance is deplorable' but when asked to provide evidence, there is nothing to back up these claims, yet they get repeated constantly. The danger is that people end up believing them, even though they fail to stand up to scrutiny.

 

Even there, you write of deplorable SNP canvassing tactics without anything to validate this. Words such as  'disgusting' are very powerful - I don't want to suggest that you are misrepresenting anything, but I think it is only fair that you provide context.

 Come on R.R. You know full well that's not true,many people have provided you with examples of the Anti- English sentiments of the majority of SNP supporters, including myself.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

58 minutes ago, nontabury said:

  The SNP professional,you've got to be joking,and as for making things up as they go along,the SNP are in a class of their own.

 

This is the point I am trying to make - this may or may not be true, but you and all the other people on this thread who make such statements offer nothing to back up this position. What evidence did you see to make you come to that conclusion?

 

You are very quick to criticise those who may suggest anything negative about UKIP and Brexiters but you throw unsubstantiated claims about Scotland around like you are an expert, while time and again you fail to back up your claims with anything other than a facebook sh!tpost. I can only conclude that you are either a shill or you have no understanding of the issues beyond the sensationalist headlines you avidly scoop up.

[rockingrobin]

38 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 A desire to REMAIN in the union. That's the first of many obstacles. As has been pointed out to you, by many people, Scotland would have to apply as a new applicant,with all the strings that would attach,I.e MUST  join the EURO, MUST agree to become part of the Schengen area. Strangely,the SNP have not trumpeted the advantage of these and others requirements. I wonder why.

That is not accurate, sure there are some deficits, but the simplest option would be to join EFTA.

Personally I dont see the EU acting irrationally , basically expelling an independent Scotland , taking into consideration the people of Scotland have EU rights and EU citizens have rights in Scotland.

As the treaties themselves dont deal with such a situation there is room to maneuver. Since a country who wishes to leave is given 2 years to negotiate, it would seem only logical that a similar scenario will be applied. 

[RuamRudy]

43 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Come on R.R. You know full well that's not true,many people have provided you with examples of the Anti- English sentiments of the majority of SNP supporters, including myself.

 

 

As usual, utter bilge.

 

In all the many times I have asked for evidence, I have been given a total of 3 annedotal stories of run-ins with Scots, generally in bars. Yours, if I recall correctly,  was also in a bar with a group of drunk Scots. I am confused as to how, in among the abuse you allegedly received, you managed to have a conversation with them on politics and their views on independence. Please elaborate as to how (1) you came to know where their particular loyalties lay; (2) why that should be extrapolated the the majority of SNP supporters.

 

If you want to see clear evidence of intra-UK hatred, read this thread; read many of your own posts. Ask yourself how many times you have been remonstrated by your fellow Englishmen about the snide insults you hurl at Scots so easily. Admittedly, someone yesterday suggested that your description of our First Minister as worse than Hitler was 'a bit off' but in general, you will see nothing even close to anti-english, whereas we see copious examples of foul, odious venom from those who struggle to understand why we want to leave the UK - and almost nobody here objects. Better together? My erse and we are!

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

This is the point I am trying to make - this may or may not be true, but you and all the other people on this thread who make such statements offer nothing to back up this position. What evidence did you see to make you come to that conclusion?

 

You are very quick to criticise those who may suggest anything negative about UKIP and Brexiters but you throw unsubstantiated claims about Scotland around like you are an expert, while time and again you fail to back up your claims with anything other than a facebook sh!tpost. I can only conclude that you are either a shill or you have no understanding of the issues beyond the sensationalist headlines you avidly scoop up.

I have't got the time,or the inclination to list all of the SNP lies/false claims.

Two come to mind straight away.

A separated Scotland would be able to use the GBP on it's own terms.

A separated Scotland would automatically be welcomed as a new member of the E.U.

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

I have't got the time,or the inclination to list all of the SNP lies/false claims.

A handy excuse. Similarly, I have read an academic paper that validates the suggestion from Grouse that all Brexiters are numpties. However I am much too busy to link to it so you will just have to take my word for it.

 

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

A separated Scotland would be able to use the GBP on it's own terms.

I don't think that any currency plan has been announced by the SNP. Care to show where they have stated this, or are you too busy?

As for on whose terms it would if Scotland retained the pound, clearly monetary matters would reside with the BoE so I am unsure why anyone would suggest otherwise.

 

4 minutes ago, nontabury said:

A separated Scotland would automatically be welcomed as a new member of the E.U.

Again, where has it been stated that we would become full EU members the day we left the UK? Nobody is in any doubt about the process of application.

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

That is not accurate, sure there are some deficits, but the simplest option would be to join EFTA.

Personally I dont see the EU acting irrationally , basically expelling an independent Scotland , taking into consideration the people of Scotland have EU rights and EU citizens have rights in Scotland.

As the treaties themselves dont deal with such a situation there is room to maneuver. Since a country who wishes to leave is given 2 years to negotiate, it would seem only logical that a similar scenario will be applied. 

It would not be a case of EXPELLING an independent Scotland,for the simple reason that Scotland Is not a member of the EU. The U.K. Is the member.

 Scotland would have to apply,

Some people think it would go to the back of the queue, personnaly I don't see that,it would Possible be given priority entry,say within a couple of years. That is of course if Scotland were able to pass  the financial requirements of a new member. Unfortunately that does not seem likely.

And let's not forget the real possibility, that maybe the E.U will not be in existence in a few years.

 

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

As usual, utter bilge.

 

In all the many times I have asked for evidence, I have been given a total of 3 annedotal stories of run-ins with Scots, generally in bars. Yours, if I recall correctly,  was also in a bar with a group of drunk Scots. I am confused as to how, in among the abuse you allegedly received, you managed to have a conversation with them on politics and their views on independence. Please elaborate as to how (1) you came to know where their particular loyalties lay; (2) why that should be extrapolated the the majority of SNP supporters.

 

If you want to see clear evidence of intra-UK hatred, read this thread; read many of your own posts. Ask yourself how many times you have been remonstrated by your fellow Englishmen about the snide insults you hurl at Scots so easily. Admittedly, someone yesterday suggested that your description of our First Minister as worse than Hitler was 'a bit off' but in general, you will see nothing even close to anti-english, whereas we see copious examples of foul, odious venom from those who struggle to understand why we want to leave the UK - and almost nobody here objects. Better together? My erse and we are!

This is becoming rather childish. I'm not going to Keep repeating examples of Anti English sentiments,driving many of those in the SNP camp. As you seem to be in complete denial of what are facts. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by nontabury