ABS for bikes, it took a while....

[AllanB]

 

[Kwasaki]

Don't like ABS personally or the use of that ancient YouTube vid. 

[jackdd]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Don't like ABS personally or the use of that ancient YouTube vid. 

How can somebody not like ABS? lol

You also don't like to have an health insurance?

 

 

Thais obviously don't need safety features, they have amulets

Edited April 10, 2018 by jackdd

[eisfeld]

Professional racers or amateurs on a high level wont need or want ABS. Normal riders should all be happy about ABS. Most people who think they are good enough that ABS wouldn't help them are overestimating themselves.

 

Older ABS systems were a bit crappy. But nowerdays these systems are pretty good and can sometimes be turned off if one so desires. I can confess that ABS probably saved my butt at least one time on a wet and extremely slippery road section where I had to emergency break because some other biker (without ABS) crashed in front of me.

[AllanB]

5 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Don't like ABS personally or the use of that ancient YouTube vid. 

You don'y like old Youtube videos.........why? They are copies of old films...

[KhunBENQ]

It took me a while to get the message.

A lab/prototype version of ABS for motorbikes already shown in the 1960s.

First introduction in the mid to late 1980s.

 

Due to the WiKi an ABS is now mandatory for all newly introduced models from 125ccm/11kw up.

Exceptions only for "competition bikes".

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, jackdd said:

How can somebody not like ABS? lol

You also don't like to have an health insurance?

Thais obviously don't need safety features, they have amulets

You are wrong on both accounts I have health insurance in Thailand thanks why wouldn't I, no relation to ABS braking systems you edited. 

' lol ' such a stupid remark without knowledge of ABS on motorcycles.

 OK so your someone who needs electronic to ride a motorbike well good luck with that unless you own a motorcycle with high end ABS tech on braking.

 

[jackdd]

19 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You are wrong on both accounts I have health insurance in Thailand thanks why wouldn't I, no relation to ABS braking systems you edited. 

' lol ' such a stupid remark without knowledge of ABS on motorcycles.

 OK so your someone who needs electronic to ride a motorbike well good luck with that unless you own a motorcycle with high end ABS tech on braking.

Because both are usually not needed and cost money, but are useful to have.

ABS does not (and should not) trigger under normal circumstances (if it triggers you are braking too strong) but in unforeseen circumstances like when your tire looses traction (sand or whatever) or you simply brake too strong because you are panicking there is a good chance that ABS might save your ass.

Edited April 10, 2018 by jackdd

[Kwasaki]

3 hours ago, AllanB said:

You don'y like old Youtube videos.........why? They are copies of old films...

Outdated vids then, thought this was about ABS on bikes, ABS on cars OK l guess.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Because both are usually not needed and cost money, but are useful to have.

ABS does not (and should not) trigger under normal circumstances (if it triggers you are braking too strong) but in unforeseen circumstances like when your tire looses traction (sand or whatever) or you simply brake too strong because you are panicking there is a good chance that ABS might save your ass.

Agree driving skills & experience are necessary, people need to know the facts, a simple ABS system on a motorbike for straight line braking can have you off in certain corner situations. 

[eisfeld]

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

a simple ABS system on a motorbike for straight line braking can have you off in certain corner situations

Hm could you give a more detailed/specific example? Do you mean a situation where sliding the rear would be safer than the ABS preventing the slide and instead standing up the bike and possibly highsiding?

[Kwasaki]

3 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Hm could you give a more detailed/specific example? Do you mean a situation where sliding the rear would be safer than the ABS preventing the slide and instead standing up the bike and possibly highsiding?

Think about it, a corner and using ABS.

Many reviews on the pro & cons.

My opinion is basic ABS is not necessary other text for bikes would be better.

 As always cost applies.. 

[eisfeld]

45 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Think about it, a corner and using ABS.

Many reviews on the pro & cons.

My opinion is basic ABS is not necessary other text for bikes would be better.

 As always cost applies.. 

ABS can save your ass in a corner too. That's why I asked you for a specific example because the cases where ABS is harmful are much fewer than the cases where it's beneficial. And in a straight line situation it guaranteed saved more people than it harmed. Cost is miniscule if they can put it on scooters...

Plus, ABS get better all the time. Now the top end ones have cornering ABS, slide control etc. All this will trickle down to the cheaper models over time. What is now basic wont be in a few years.

 

The question is not if it's necessary. It's unquestionably a good thing for the vast majority of riders.

[canthai55]

Never rode a bike with it until I was shopping for my latest bike.

Rented from PopCarrent. first was a Versys.

Between CNX and Pai a Vigo came down the hill on my side of the road, flashing his lights.

Mountain to the right, down the mountain to the left.

It allowed me to slow down enuf, quick enuf, to go onto what little shoulder there was and miss the pickup.

Would I have made it on my Dyna ? Good question, but I made it on the Versys.

Also stopped both low and high sides on the CB650 when I was being an AH and cooked it into the corner.

[Agusts]

The only proper test I ever did with ABS was on my ex-car, model 2000, when I got it in 2004 it had ABS and quite new to me, so I did a lot of tests on dry and wet surface.

 

What I experienced was the ABS mechanism had this stuttering effect of locking and releasing very fast, but on a car it was fine and very effective. Though you could feel the stutter on the break pedal and the whole car. I guess the way ABS worked was that it detected the wheels locking (no revolution) and then released the break until it was applied again and repeated, hence the stutter. This was very quick so the car would eventually stop, and much better than if it was to skid - even in wet condition (some people said on the ice it was not that effective though).

 

Now that was technology from 18 years ago, how do the ABS work now, do they still only get activated when the wheel is locked, and they detect that, and is it the same on the bike too... !?

 

Because if that is so, you will be down on your ass at the first lock of the wheel, even momentarily locking be enough, because the front-wheel control and angle is changed and gone already ! I have no experience with latest bike ABS technology, so I am asking for a knowledgeable correction to my theory....

 

(Last week when I went down with my scooter in the rain, it was so slippery and steep downhill slope you would struggle to stand on your sandals on that part of the road, I doubt ABS could have kept the bike upside - no cornering, but if the front-wheel, skid for a split second it changes to slight angle and that will be game over....) 

 

 

[ktm jeff]

True ABS brakes , as fitted on some Yamahas etc , offer more braking control on loose surfaces than standard brakes. Good ( tarmac ) track or motocross/dirt riders feel they can better modulate the brakes without it. The non-abs brake system of Hondas "CBS" could have you off mid corner , as the front brake is applied when you apply the rear brake , whether you want it or not. Not what you need , mid corner. The Honda system is not true ABS however.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, Agusts said:

The only proper test I ever did with ABS was on my ex-car, model 2000, when I got it in 2004 it had ABS and quite new to me, so I did a lot of tests on dry and wet surface.

 

What I experienced was the ABS mechanism had this stuttering effect of locking and releasing very fast, but on a car it was fine and very effective. Though you could feel the stutter on the break pedal and the whole car. I guess the way ABS worked was that it detected the wheels locking (no revolution) and then released the break until it was applied again and repeated, hence the stutter. This was very quick so the car would eventually stop, and much better than if it was to skid - even in wet condition (some people said on the ice it was not that effective though).

 

Now that was technology from 18 years ago, how do the ABS work now, do they still only get activated when the wheel is locked, and they detect that, and is it the same on the bike too... !?

 

Because if that is so, you will be down on your ass at the first lock of the wheel, even momentarily locking be enough, because the front-wheel control and angle is changed and gone already ! I have no experience with latest bike ABS technology, so I am asking for a knowledgeable correction to my theory....

 

(Last week when I went down with my scooter in the rain, it was so slippery and steep downhill slope you would struggle to stand on your sandals on that part of the road, I doubt ABS could have kept the bike upside - no cornering, but if the front-wheel, skid for a split second it changes to slight angle and that will be game over....) 

 

 

 

There are of course marginal differences in how effective the ABS works, but in general it tries to release the break just at the moment before the wheel locks completely, and not after it locked already, how well this works does also depend on the surface.

[eisfeld]

58 minutes ago, ktm jeff said:

True ABS brakes , as fitted on some Yamahas etc , offer more braking control on loose surfaces than standard brakes. Good ( tarmac ) track or motocross/dirt riders feel they can better modulate the brakes without it. The non-abs brake system of Hondas "CBS" could have you off mid corner , as the front brake is applied when you apply the rear brake , whether you want it or not. Not what you need , mid corner. The Honda system is not true ABS however.

Hondas CBS in some of their bikes is indeed utter crap. He who thinks that automatically applying the front brake when activating the rear brake is a good idea, has never ridden a motorbike in wet/sand/icy/etc conditions. I'm baffled how they can still put this into their bikes to this day. The system that BMW uses in some bikes where the rear is applied when the front is activated on the other hand, makes much more sense.

 

But jeff, the Honda CBS is not "not true ABS", it's not an ABS at all.

[guzzi850m2]

ABS saved me a couple of times on my Versys but okay I am only an average rider so for me it's beneficial.
Never felt I needed it on my PCX but it mostly used for city duty.

Sent from my SM-C710F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Kwasaki]

15 hours ago, eisfeld said:

ABS can save your ass in a corner too. That's why I asked you for a specific example because the cases where ABS is harmful are much fewer than the cases where it's beneficial. And in a straight line situation it guaranteed saved more people than it harmed. Cost is miniscule if they can put it on scooters...

Plus, ABS get better all the time. Now the top end ones have cornering ABS, slide control etc. All this will trickle down to the cheaper models over time. What is now basic wont be in a few years.

 

The question is not if it's necessary. It's unquestionably a good thing for the vast majority of riders.

As of now basic ABS on bikes give inexperience riders a false sense of safety IMO.

Agree somewhat what you say and I know about ABS advancements but there slow in coming to cheap bikes, in this discussion my point is what happen to perfecting riding skills.

No time for that is there !! not even attention paid to emergency braking, braking in corner condition or braking in general that's all I have to say.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Kwasaki

[VocalNeal]

I've never ridden an ABS bike. I suppose my opinion would depend on how intrusive it is. I'm just a road rider who plays at the track so I've never locked up the front wheel, yet. 

[canthai55]

3 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

No time for that is there !! not even attention paid to emergency braking, braking in corner condition or braking in general that's all I have to say.

Agree with what you say, no one wants to learn anymore.

But for those who attended the school of hard knocks - who crashed bikes due to sand on the road, too much speed, being a total AH in general, I think that it may well save lives when all riders are taken in account.

Graduated license system, skills testing to move on to a more powerful bike, these are they way to go.

But until there is money to be made doing this, it will never happen.

 

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Agree with what you say, no one wants to learn anymore.

But for those who attended the school of hard knocks - who crashed bikes due to sand on the road, too much speed, being a total AH in general, I think that it may well save lives when all riders are taken in account.

Graduated license system, skills testing to move on to a more powerful bike, these are they way to go.

But until there is money to be made doing this, it will never happen.

 

I was an advance rider in UK and track marshal, I offer to teach family bike skills but no one want me to show/help them.

I remember on a wide open space educating my Mrs riding on the back of her scoot at 50K, told her turn to turn left with went right,  she didn't know about opposite steer, maybe the reason for Thai's and those head on's with big motorcycles in the bendy bits in Thailand.

[scubascuba3]

I've never ridden an ABS bike. I suppose my opinion would depend on how intrusive it is. I'm just a road rider who plays at the track so I've never locked up the front wheel, yet. 

My BMW F800GS had ABS but i never needed it, glad it was there though. My next scooter will have ABS. I've got a tendency to grab the right brake, i think its because i cycle a lot and use the right brake mostly.

[bobbin]

Honda has just released the CB300R with IMU-linked brakes, aka cornering ABS.

 

The trickle-down of advanced ABS tech has reached the cheaper bikes...

 

Well done Honda.

[papa al]

21 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Agree with what you say, no one wants to learn anymore.

But for those who attended the school of hard knocks - who crashed bikes due to sand on the road, too much speed, being a total AH in general, I think that it may well save lives when all riders are taken in account.

Graduated license system, skills testing to move on to a more powerful bike, these are they way to go.

But until there is money to be made doing this, it will never happen.

 

FREEDOM !!

[eisfeld]

2 hours ago, bobbin said:

Honda has just released the CB300R with IMU-linked brakes, aka cornering ABS.

 

The trickle-down of advanced ABS tech has reached the cheaper bikes...

 

Well done Honda.

Wow, I was surprised to read this but indeed the new CB300R and even CB125R have an IMU. But I'd be careful calling it cornering ABS because I couldn't find any mentioning of that anywhere. The articles always just state that these two have some kind of IMU and that the ABS is connected to it. Now, that could indeed be cornering ABS or something else. The reason why I'm doubting that it's real cornering ABS is that the new CB1000R doesn't have any IMU whatsoever. Now if Honda had a cheap, proper IMU for cornering ABS, they surely would have put that into their flagship roadster, right? That tells me that the IMU in the 300 and 125 most be a very limited capability unit and I wouldn't rely on it providing what we call cornering ABS. Then again, I somehow can't really follow Hondas logic so maybe they did indeed put a proper IMU in the small bikes and left it out of the bike one.

[bobbin]

To be honest, I received the article on a Google feed and had to do a search for IMU-linked brakes..

Apparently there are 6 azimuths measured by sensor in the most capable systems and only 5 azimuths measured by sensor in lesser systems with the 6th measurement provided by an algorithm..

 

It is indeed meant to provide ABS braking in a corner. There is a video by KTM which compared the two types of systems.. as well as no ABS. 

 

Edit. IMU braking in a corner vs. only ABS

Edited April 12, 2018 by bobbin
added clarification

[eisfeld]

2 hours ago, bobbin said:

It is indeed meant to provide ABS braking in a corner. There is a video by KTM which compared the two types of systems.. as well as no ABS. 

I didn't find any mentioning of the Honda IMU-linked ABS providing cornering ABS. What KTM does can be very different to what Hondas system does. KTM uses expensive components usually. I have no idea what the Honda IMU in those small capacity bikes is capable of.

[bobbin]

So Honda has dreamed up their own definition of IMU-linked braking? Possible yes. Likely no..

 

Widen your search parameters to "IMU-linked braking" not the Honda articles..

Edited April 12, 2018 by bobbin