BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[wayned]

23 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

I would certainly not blame the British Embassy. None of the embassies has the staff to do what Immigration wants. The BE has always been reasonable. You should try my American Embassy if you want no attention to the needs of those they claim to serve.

I am American and stand behind what i said.  when the be started this crap back in 2014 the us embassy stood back and took the stance of "wait and see" and everything blew over.  this time  a new vice consular jumped on board and the us embassy joined the be embassy.  i have lived here since 1997 and have never had any problems with the service provided by the embassy.

[White Tiger]

Here's a link to the response made by the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office to one of my Freefom of Information requests. To me this response is interesting because:

 

1 It says the British Embassy didn't keep any minutes of the May 2018 meeting with Thai immigration authorities. (A staggering admission in my view).

 

2. It provides a copy of a minute from a different meeting recording what Thai immigration said on this matter.  That minute records that the Thais have concerns about the verification of documents. Not about the verification of amounts of income.

 

So I interpret that 2nd point to be about for example, whether a bank statement provided to the embassy as proof of income is a genuine bank statement. Not about verifying if the amounts stated in the bank statement are real. This is different to how I have understood the issue before.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/notarial_services_by_british_emb_2

[luckyluke]

15 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

Great to see that some embassies have the resources and common sense to be able to satisfy themselves that they have verified the amount of income. 

The Austrian Consulate in Pattaya have always and still take their responsibilities by issuing and signing an Income Letter, not giving out an Affidavit.

 

Pattaya Immigration have always trust the Austrian Consulate and still do.

 

What eventually  can/will happen, is speculation.

 

[White Tiger]

Here is a link to the reply to a different Freedom of Information request I made about the income letters.  In this reply the Foreign & Commonwealth Office say that there were almost 2800 income letters issued by the British Embassy last year, and that the £52 fee is set by Parliament.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/notarial_services_by_british_emb#incoming-1268083 

Edited November 22, 2018 by White Tiger
Typo

[White Tiger]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

The Austrian Consulate in Pattaya have always and still take their responsibilities by issuing and signing an Income Letter, not giving out an Affidavit.

 

Pattaya Immigration have always trust the Austrian Consulate and still do.

 

What eventually  can/will happen, is speculation.

 

Yes, I never said otherwise.

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

Yes, I never said otherwise.

Sure, 

I suppose I wrongly expressed myself, sorry,.

Being Belgian ( Flemish ) and 70 years old, is my only excuse.

[007 RED]

34 minutes ago, White Tiger said:

1 It says the British Embassy didn't keep any minutes of the May 2018 meeting with Thai immigration authorities. (A staggering admission in my view).

I totally agree.    To me that the fact that a member (possibly a senior member) of the BE attended a meeting with TI to discuss such an important issue as verifying their income letters, and then are admitting publically that they didn't keep (take?) any minutes is an indictment of there total lack of professionalism.

Edited November 22, 2018 by 007 RED

[KhunFred]

8 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

I totally agree.    To me that the fact that a member (possibly a senior member) of the BE attended a meeting with TI to discuss such an important issue as verifying their income letters, and then are admitting publically that they didn't keep (take?) any minutes is an indictment of there total lack of professionalism.

Sounds a bit like someone has a problem with Brits. I get along with them just fine.All the embassies should be working together to dig expats out of this hole, they've dug for us.

[roger101]

I don't know what the total number of Income Letters is but just taking the 2.800 Brits that's 42,000,000 baht extra to the "visa agents" .That's a lot of money to be split between the agents and their friends (I was told the going rate was 15,000 Baht).

[KhunFred]

2 minutes ago, roger101 said:

I don't know what the total number of Income Letters is but just taking the 2.800 Brits that's 42,000,000 baht extra to the "visa agents" .That's a lot of money to be split between the agents and their friends (I was told the going rate was 15,000 Baht).

This would not surprise me at all. It's an obvious deal to make up for the "no tips" policy. Just taking that "tea" money out of the hides of expats.

[007 RED]

7 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

Sounds a bit like someone has a problem with Brits. I get along with them just fine.All the embassies should be working together to dig expats out of this hole, they've dug for us.

If your indicating that that I have a problem with Brits your 'barking' totally up the wrong tree as I happen to be a Brit and in 1992 spent some time working in the BE in BKK.

Edited November 22, 2018 by 007 RED

[KhunFred]

Just now, 007 RED said:

If your indicating that that I have a problem with Brits your 'barking' totally up the wrong tree as I happen to be a Brit.

Glad you straightened that out, mate. ????

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, White Tiger said:

Here's a link to the response made by the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office to one of my Freefom of Information requests. To me this response is interesting because:

 

1 It says the British Embassy didn't keep any minutes of the May 2018 meeting with Thai immigration authorities. (A staggering admission in my view).

 

2. It provides a copy of a minute from a different meeting recording what Thai immigration said on this matter.  That minute records that the Thais have concerns about the verification of documents. Not about the verification of amounts of income.

 

So I interpret that 2nd point to be about for example, whether a bank statement provided to the embassy as proof of income is a genuine bank statement. Not about verifying if the amounts stated in the bank statement are real. This is different to how I have understood the issue before.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/notarial_services_by_british_emb_2

Doesn't look like my similar FOI request is likely to yield anything more meaningful, then.

 

But the following sentence in the discussion summary did catch my eye in particular:-

 

"However, where the British Embassy is not able to verify documents, Thailand agreed to explore the possibility of considering alternative forms of verification."

 

If the British Embassy are basing their claim that monthly income can, in future, be verified through local immigration officers sighting it in a Thai bank account in lieu of any confirmatory letter issued by the Embassy on a seemingly vague and non-commital agreement on the part of the Immigration Bureau, then, at best, this claim is complete and utter BS IMHO.

 

It is, of course, entirely up to you as to whether or not you choose to follow-up your FOI request in any way - but, if I were in your shoes, I would definitely be lodging a formal complaint with the FCO about the gross incompetence and dereliction of duty on the Embassy's part through lulling us into a false sense of security and leading us up the garden path as regards sighting monthly income in a Thai bank account.

 

It is what I, quite frankly, now consider to be an apparent "economy with the truth" on the Embassy's part which makes my blood boil in this matter rather than their decision to withdraw the income confirmation letter service per se.

Edited November 22, 2018 by OJAS

[doctormann]

More of the same from Stacey at the BE:

 

This in response to a query regarding what, if anything, has been negotiated with TI to replace the Income Letters and seeking an assurance that letters issued before the end of the year would be valid for six months.

 

Pretty much a standard reply that adds nothing to what we know - or don't know - already.  Totally unsatisfactory, in my view.  Make of it what you will!

 

 

Dear ************

Thank you for your email.

In order to apply for/renew your visa, you will need to ensure the financial requirement of the visa is met by having the minimum funds in a Thai bank account. You will be able to demonstrate that you meet the financial requirement by showing Immigration your bank statements. You may also need a letter from your bank. 

According to Thai Immigration's website and the "Order of the Immigration Bureau No. 327/2557, Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien's Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand", applicants must have evidence of an income of at least 65,000 THB per month or the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than 800,000 THB for the past three months. Unfortunately, as the requirements for a Thai visa are dealt with by the Thai Immigration department we are unable confirm what documents will be accepted as evidence of income. Immigrations own website https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_visa_extension_all makes no mention of the need to have a letter from an embassy for proof of income. 

Unfortunately, the renewal of Thai Visas is an Immigration matter, and the British Embassy cannot confirm how early you can renew your visa. It does appear that different provinces have different rules. I therefore suggest you confirm this with your local Immigration Office. 

Thai Law states income letters provided by Embassies are valid for 6 months. However, as has always been the case, it is at the discretion of the Immigration Officer as to what evidence they will accept, and whether to grant the extension or not. Unfortunately, the British Embassy, or any other Embassy does not have the ability to advise Immigration on what documents they should accept.

Kind Regards

Stacey
 

[Pattaya46]

2 hours ago, 007 RED said:

To me that the fact that a member (possibly a senior member) of the BE attended a meeting with TI to discuss such an important issue as verifying their income letters, and then are admitting publically that they didn't keep (take?) any minutes is an indictment of there total lack of professionalism.

This could just confirm this other theory that the May's meeting was just one of normal periodic meetings, with nothing really important, and that during this meeting TI just ask embassies to be a bit more suspicious when issuing letters.

 

 

Quote

T.I. to embassies : " We would appreciate you have a closer look at the incomes of your nationals when issuing a document about revenues ".

 

Embassies to T.I. : " We will do everything what is legally possible, if you eventually encounter a falsifier, please let us know, he will be sentenced accordingly "

 

American, Australian, British embassy : " We will not issue a document anymore ".

 

* quote from this post : https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1067199-expats-need-to-organize-in-face-of-embassies-discontinuance-of-income-verification-letters/?page=38&tab=comments#comment-13548920

[007 RED]

 

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

This could just confirm this other theory that the May's meeting was just one of normal periodic meetings, with nothing really important, and that during this meeting TI just ask embassies to be a bit more suspicious when issuing letters.

If I remember correctly, the BE representative who gave a radio interview shortly after the BE made their announcement clearly indicate that the meeting with TI was a specific meeting to discuss TI’s concerns regarding income letters.  If that was the case, it would have been regarded as a formal meeting and a member of the BE delegation would/should have been tasked with taking notes or minutes of that meeting.  That would be standard procedure.

 

With regard to your second quote from an earlier post:

 

T.I. to embassies : " We would appreciate you have a closer look at the incomes of your nationals when issuing a document about revenues ".

 

Embassies to T.I. : " We will do everything what is legally possible, if you eventually encounter a falsifier, please let us know, he will be sentenced accordingly "

 

American, Australian, British embassy : " We will not issue a document anymore ".

 

You omitted one very important word which preceded that post, namely.... Speculation

[Pattaya46]

7 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

You omitted one very important word which preceded that post, namely.... Speculation

I think that British Embassy also forgot to put that word on its announce... 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Patriot1066]

16 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

I think that British Embassy also forgot to put that word on its announce... 

They really don’t seem to try and help do they!

[soleddy]

So for the 65,000 pm, will they now accept an "unsworn" GB Bank Statement (or several)?

 

Or is it a ploy to get everybody to move 800,000 over (a clever move, because people die intestate or, anyway, I know my lawyer will not dash about to claim my 800.000 for months). And is it true or not that I can withdraw 800k any time or do the Thai banks kick up a fuss?

 

Is there a 3rd method in mind, for people who cannot show 65k but also cannot deposit 800.000? Or will something creep out eventually, once they realise they have screwed up and may lose 20% of expats?

 

Eddy

[superal]

I believe that the T.I. told the B.E.  ( and other embassies ) that they were being relieved of the income affirmation  business and it is as simple as that .  Is it not obvious that because of the lack of official meeting minutes there was no debating the matter and a verbal instruction was issued by the T.I. to the B.E. who in turn made their announcement under the guise of " total authenticity of proof of income " not possible to guarantee .

It was their way to get out of a sticky situation .

After all it is the shout of the T.I. to make the rules as they see fit . TIT . Lets face it , some of the embassies issued affirmation letters with either little in the way of document proof or just the swearing on oath , so almost understandable why the T.I. decided to step in and in doing so will manage it their way .  There will be no other means other than the 4/800k in the bank or the services of agencies to gain your annual extension .        Unless you know otherwise ?

[soleddy]

How do the agencies do it? They cannot "lend" you 800,000 for 3 months--can they??

[yodsak]

about 34 minutes last 2 alerts i saw. ,some times less

[Pattaya46]

30 minutes ago, soleddy said:

How do the agencies do it? They cannot "lend" you 800,000 for 3 months--can they??

The "lend" you money for 10 minutes. Just the time for the bank to issue a letter stating that you have 800'000 at the moment they sign it...

[jimn]

1 hour ago, superal said:

I believe that the T.I. told the B.E.  ( and other embassies ) that they were being relieved of the income affirmation  business and it is as simple as that .  Is it not obvious that because of the lack of official meeting minutes there was no debating the matter and a verbal instruction was issued by the T.I. to the B.E. who in turn made their announcement under the guise of " total authenticity of proof of income " not possible to guarantee .

It was their way to get out of a sticky situation .

After all it is the shout of the T.I. to make the rules as they see fit . TIT . Lets face it , some of the embassies issued affirmation letters with either little in the way of document proof or just the swearing on oath , so almost understandable why the T.I. decided to step in and in doing so will manage it their way .  There will be no other means other than the 4/800k in the bank or the services of agencies to gain your annual extension .        Unless you know otherwise ?

Ever since this whole debacle started I have been waiting for more embassies to follow, so far after the big 3 only Denmark have stopped issuing letters. Maybe the reason is that the message from Thai Immigration was only aimed at these embassies. It is clear to me that the BE system although not perfect, you had to actually send the BE some proof of your income, ie P60 cerificate. The USA and Australian process looks to me seriously flawed and relies on the individual to sware on oath that they receive the income. Now that to me looks like a process open to abuse and looks like these were the loopholes TI were trying to stop.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, doctormann said:

More of the same from Stacey at the BE:

 

This in response to a query regarding what, if anything, has been negotiated with TI to replace the Income Letters and seeking an assurance that letters issued before the end of the year would be valid for six months.

 

Pretty much a standard reply that adds nothing to what we know - or don't know - already.  Totally unsatisfactory, in my view.  Make of it what you will!

 

 

Dear ************

Thank you for your email.

In order to apply for/renew your visa, you will need to ensure the financial requirement of the visa is met by having the minimum funds in a Thai bank account. You will be able to demonstrate that you meet the financial requirement by showing Immigration your bank statements. You may also need a letter from your bank. 

According to Thai Immigration's website and the "Order of the Immigration Bureau No. 327/2557, Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien's Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand", applicants must have evidence of an income of at least 65,000 THB per month or the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than 800,000 THB for the past three months. Unfortunately, as the requirements for a Thai visa are dealt with by the Thai Immigration department we are unable confirm what documents will be accepted as evidence of income. Immigrations own website https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_visa_extension_all makes no mention of the need to have a letter from an embassy for proof of income. 

Unfortunately, the renewal of Thai Visas is an Immigration matter, and the British Embassy cannot confirm how early you can renew your visa. It does appear that different provinces have different rules. I therefore suggest you confirm this with your local Immigration Office. 

Thai Law states income letters provided by Embassies are valid for 6 months. However, as has always been the case, it is at the discretion of the Immigration Officer as to what evidence they will accept, and whether to grant the extension or not. Unfortunately, the British Embassy, or any other Embassy does not have the ability to advise Immigration on what documents they should accept.

Kind Regards

Stacey
 

I agree with your comment.

 

The embassy staff have no problems at all as they are on diplomatic visas.

 

A classic case of pull up the ladder Jack, cos I don't give a sh*t.

[PST]

“Of course this letter is no longer needed if the embassy no longer issues it,” Col Archeep explained to The Phuket News today (Nov 22).

“However, the foreigner applying for the visa (or permit-to-stay) will still have to prove that they have the funds to stay in the country, such as by showing bank statements that prove the foreigner has B800,000 in a Thai bank account,” he said.

 

So, its gone from letter of income confirming 40k per month income, to 800k in a Thai bank account within' a month???,,,,im 45, so haven't got a pension

 

 

 

[Shoeless Joe]

2 hours ago, superal said:

I believe that the T.I. told the B.E.  ( and other embassies ) that they were being relieved of the income affirmation  business and it is as simple as that

 

Unfortuntely, your "believing" that Thai Immigration told the British Embassy something is only further speculation and means nothing unless you have some evidence.

 

Regards,

 

Joe

 

 

[superal]

6 minutes ago, Shoeless Joe said:

  2 hours ago, superal said:

I believe that the T.I. told the B.E.  ( and other embassies ) that they were being relieved of the income affirmation  business and it is as simple as that

 

Unfortuntely, your "believing" that Thai Immigration told the British Embassy something is only further speculation and means nothing unless you have some evidence.

 

Regards,

 

Joe

 

 

So what is your " belief " with this debacle ?  My interpretation is plausible  and based on the sequence of events .  I don't think you have to be a Sherlock Holmes to work this one out .

[jacko45k]

On 11/22/2018 at 12:23 AM, tropo said:

Things can and do change at a moment's notice. Already some IO's at some offices have said they won't be accepted after January 1.

Well no announcements that I am aware of, just people reporting what some odd immigration office worker has told them. So not really an official office statement, posted somewhere. They have a habit here of telling you what they don't know for sure. 

Nothing wrong with planning for it but which offices have made this statement?

 

OOps, just reading Phuket IO may have made the statement.

Edited November 22, 2018 by jacko45k

[PST]

8 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Well no announcements that I am aware of, just people reporting what some odd immigration office worker has told them. So not really an official office statement, posted somewhere. They have a habit here of telling you what they don't know for sure. 

Nothing wrong with planning for it but which offices have made this statement?

 

OOps, just reading Phuket IO may have made the statement.

“Of course this letter is no longer needed if the embassy no longer issues it,” Col Archeep explained to The Phuket News today (Nov 22).

“However, the foreigner applying for the visa (or permit-to-stay) will still have to prove that they have the funds to stay in the country, such as by showing bank statements that prove the foreigner has B800,000 in a Thai bank account,” he said

 

So how does that leave people who aren't retired yet, so don't have a pension?,,,ive lived here for over 10 years, married with kids, but now my letter of income wont be accepted to state that I have income of 40k per month or more, I now need 800k in the bank???,,,,what a joke