800,000 Retirement Extension in Chiang Rai Feb 6, 2019

[Andrew Dwyer]

I did mine in Chiang Rai yestetday. Told new rulrs start 1st March given paper copy of nrw rules to confirm.. No mention made of how they will check 800k in there in 90 days. I dont think they know either. 

Its here to stay.

So does that mean that as you have renewed before March 1st you are good to go till next year as you have effectively renewed under the current system or come March 1st ( 2019 ) you automatically need to have 800/400k in your Bank per the new rules ?

 

As a point of interest, what is your renewal date ?

[baansgr]

So IO is quoting a new rule yet can't even tell you how it works.... 

[logres212]

12 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There's nothing in the new police order re retirement extensions that addresses or limits what kinds of sources of income can or cannot be used to make the required 65,000 baht per month transfers into a Thai bank account.

 

So despite that particular immigration officer's comments, I would NOT take them as meaning in any way that somehow non-pension income is suddenly not going to be accepted. The main thing is, they want to see the 65K each and every month coming into a Thai bank account, not where every baht of it came from.

 

I can envision, perhaps, that some officers might want to see some backup documentation in some cases showing the source/sources of the funds, perhaps to show the person is not "recycling."  But most all of the other non-pension sources of income also have varying kinds of statements or documentation, which I'm sure would suffice if required.

 

 

So what you're saying, it's not sufficient just to show 65,000 Bhat coming in every month. You will now have to show its source? 

[Tracyb]

17 hours ago, NancyL said:

I did an 800,000 baht retirement extension in Chiang Mai yesterday, February 5 and was told by the CM immigration officer it was OK to spend that 800,000 baht now -- that the new rule about not touching it for three months and not ever letting it go below 400,000 doesn't go into effect until March 1.  Whew!  Got in under the wire this year.  

 

I turned age 65 a couple weeks ago and my pension starts at the end of February, so next year I'll have a year's worth of monthly deposits into a Thai bank in excess of 65,000 baht/month and I can start to spend that 800,000 baht now on a condo remodeling project.  Sometimes you get lucky.  

 

The immigration officer made sure I understood exactly what was needed to prove monthly deposits and then we had a nice chat about the remodeling project when I told her I was going to spend the 800,000 baht right away.

Would you be willing to tell us what the IO said would be required to prove the monthly deposits??  I’ll be using that method and want to understand what they are saying is needed.  Thanks!

[Hotrats]

I did my annual retirement extension at Nonthaburi Immigration on February 4th. I use the 800,000 Baht in the bank method. I was shown a copy of the new rules (in Thai) and told that I would have to follow these requirements as of NOW, no mention of them starting after March 1st. So that was pretty clear.

However, when I asked about how they would be checking whether I was keeping the required amount in my bank account it was not so clear. One officer told me I had to bring my updated bank book with me at my next 90 day report. Another officer told me they would be checking when I made my next annual extension. So, no clarity there.

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, Tracyb said:

Would you be willing to tell us what the IO said would be required to prove the monthly deposits??  I’ll be using that method and want to understand what they are saying is needed.  Thanks!

In this particular situation, the IO showed me a copy of a Bangkok Bank baht bankbook where deposits from overseas are indicated with the FTT code.  They really like to see that FTT.

 

Yesterday a friend had his retirement extension rejected in Chiang Mai.  He'd been receiving Social Security into Bangkok Bank for nearly a year, about 45,000 baht/month and topping it off to over 65,000 baht each month by transferring money from his Bangkok Bank U.S. dollar account.  They said that money wasn't money from overseas.  Of course it was, but Bangkok Bank uses a different code than FTT for deposits into a U.S. dollar account and the money had been deposited in the account for a long time.

 

He was quite panicked, until I pointed out he was planning a trip to the U.S. just before his extension expires anyway and he can apply for an O-A visa there using the funds in his U.S. investment account as the financial justification.  I don't know why more people don't think to do this, esp. the "I don't trust Thai banks with 800,000 baht" crowd.

[Suradit69]

Anyone know to whom you will show the 3 month post extension bank balance? Back to the retirement extension officer or can the 90 day report officer do the check? If the former, that will add more people to the queue for extensions which at some offices are already overwhelming.

 

 

 

[Time Traveller]

I still can't wrap my mind around why if you need to have money in the account to show you have the means to support your stay in Thailand, you can't actually use that money to support yourself while in Thailand?

Thai logic.  

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

In this particular situation, the IO showed me a copy of a Bangkok Bank baht bankbook where deposits from overseas are indicated with the FTT code.  They really like to see that FTT.
 
Yesterday a friend had his retirement extension rejected in Chiang Mai.  He'd been receiving Social Security into Bangkok Bank for nearly a year, about 45,000 baht/month and topping it off to over 65,000 baht each month by transferring money from his Bangkok Bank U.S. dollar account.  They said that money wasn't money from overseas.  Of course it was, but Bangkok Bank uses a different code than FTT for deposits into a U.S. dollar account and the money had been deposited in the account for a long time.
 
He was quite panicked, until I pointed out he was planning a trip to the U.S. just before his extension expires anyway and he can apply for an O-A visa there using the funds in his U.S. investment account as the financial justification.  I don't know why more people don't think to do this, esp. the "I don't trust Thai banks with 800,000 baht" crowd.

Nice post Nancy !

Personally I’m torn between 800k in a fixed deposit account or back to the uk for an OA ( I will be visiting uk probably before renewal in Sept anyway).

The 65k a month is doable but I don’t want to rely on banks rerouting the transfer and quoting a different bank code !!

[Time Traveller]

20 minutes ago, NancyL said:

In this particular situation, the IO showed me a copy of a Bangkok Bank baht bankbook where deposits from overseas are indicated with the FTT code.  They really like to see that FTT.

 

Yesterday a friend had his retirement extension rejected in Chiang Mai.  He'd been receiving Social Security into Bangkok Bank for nearly a year, about 45,000 baht/month and topping it off to over 65,000 baht each month by transferring money from his Bangkok Bank U.S. dollar account.  They said that money wasn't money from overseas.  Of course it was, but Bangkok Bank uses a different code than FTT for deposits into a U.S. dollar account and the money had been deposited in the account for a long time.

 

He was quite panicked, until I pointed out he was planning a trip to the U.S. just before his extension expires anyway and he can apply for an O-A visa there using the funds in his U.S. investment account as the financial justification.  I don't know why more people don't think to do this, esp. the "I don't trust Thai banks with 800,000 baht" crowd.

Probably because people would much rather stay in Thailand than deal with flying to the other side of the world to reapply for a visa at a consulate and all the hassle with that. 

But you've highlighted what the low IQ mentality of the average Immigration Officer is. Arguing over stupid Bankbook transaction codes! (and what should it matter where the money comes from anyway? Is money from overseas superior to thailand sourced money ? Why? )

What a joke thailand is. 

[ThaiPauly]

Already answered

[ThaiPauly]

I can't get my head round the problem of supplying 65k that has to all be derived from pension.

 

I am still only 64 and will not get my government pensions till May 2020. I have other pensions now but I have not cashed them in yet, but even then they will not make 65,000 maybe 40.

 

But I have properties  rented out in the UK and they bring in 61,000 baht a month, so with other income I would bring in about 80k...

 

But I can't do this right?

[flexomike]

19 hours ago, steve73 said:

Thanks for posting your experiences - I'll be doing mine in the next week or two at Rayong.  I'm hoping they adopt the CM approach rather than CR. 

I will be doing mine at Maptaphut, Rayong in April, please let me know how it goes for you, they have been pretty easy in the past for me. Planning on doing the 800,000 in the bank method for the first time

[flexomike]

19 hours ago, OJAS said:

You might be interested in this report by an acquaintance of mine about his experience in connection with his latest retirement extension at Rayong yesterday:-

 

"I asked about the latest Police Order, which is perfectly clear as to what is required re maintaining 800k for 5 months of the year and 400k for the other 7 months, but says nothing about the verification process. Are we going to have to start producing our bank books/ statements every 90 days? The answer - as far as Rayong Immigration is concerned - is no. As long as when you next apply (after the first application under this Order) you can produce a record of the required balances for the previous year you're in the clear. This is what I hoped they'd say, and eminently sensible."

Question about the 800,000 in Rayong, Is it necessary that the bank book show it came from a foreign country, I brought mine over in December of 2018 to Bangkok Bank and it show as FTT, but I removed it over to my Krungsri bank and of course that just shows as a cash deposit, I will bring the Bangkok Bank book with to show them, just hope this isn't going to be an issue

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, flexomike said:

Question about the 800,000 in Rayong, Is it necessary that the bank book show it came from a foreign country,

There is no requirement to prove the funds came from abroad for an extension of stay application. No mention of it in any of the police orders.

[HHTel]

19 hours ago, OJAS said:

You might be interested in this report by an acquaintance of mine about his experience in connection with his latest retirement extension at Rayong yesterday:-

 

"I asked about the latest Police Order, which is perfectly clear as to what is required re maintaining 800k for 5 months of the year and 400k for the other 7 months, but says nothing about the verification process. Are we going to have to start producing our bank books/ statements every 90 days? The answer - as far as Rayong Immigration is concerned - is no. As long as when you next apply (after the first application under this Order) you can produce a record of the required balances for the previous year you're in the clear. This is what I hoped they'd say, and eminently sensible."

Application for extension has always been based upon following the rules over the previous 12 months, whether it be income or cash in the bank.  I don't see any reason to change that.  Your subsequent application will be checked against your previous 12 months as always.  Even Thai Immigration have some sense.

Why posters believe that you are going to be monitored during the following 12 months is beyond me.  

[connda]

19 hours ago, OJAS said:

Are we going to have to start producing our bank books/ statements every 90 days? The answer - as far as Rayong Immigration is concerned - is no. As long as when you next apply (after the first application under this Order) you can produce a record of the required balances for the previous year you're in the clear.

So, the 500lb gorilla in the room that nobody including immigration is addressing: What happens if a person on the retirement extension draws down those funds within the 5 month period or drawn down below 400K THB? 
You show up for your next extension and they say, "Get out of the country! You didn't keep 800K for three months after the extension!", or "Get out of the country! Your bank balance went below 400k THB!" even if you have 800k THB in the bank seasoned for 2 months prior to the extension.
Retirement extensions after March 1, 2020 are going to be just a ball to watch here on Thai Visa as Thai authorities start to kick foreigner retirees out of the country.

[gavlar]

20 hours ago, NancyL said:

I did an 800,000 baht retirement extension in Chiang Mai yesterday, February 5 and was told by the CM immigration officer it was OK to spend that 800,000 baht now -- that the new rule about not touching it for three months and not ever letting it go below 400,000 doesn't go into effect until March 1.  Whew!  Got in under the wire this year.  

 

I turned age 65 a couple weeks ago and my pension starts at the end of February, so next year I'll have a year's worth of monthly deposits into a Thai bank in excess of 65,000 baht/month and I can start to spend that 800,000 baht now on a condo remodeling project.  Sometimes you get lucky.  

 

The immigration officer made sure I understood exactly what was needed to prove monthly deposits and then we had a nice chat about the remodeling project when I told her I was going to spend the 800,000 baht right away.

It was the same for me at Udon yesterday....however although my extension was done on 6th Feb(30 days in advance) the actual start date for extension is 6th March. My fear is that the start date will be used under new rules as opposed to the granting date 6th Feb. Does anyone have a definitive answer 're 1st March change of rules. Approved date or start date to take precedence?

[NancyL]

29 minutes ago, gavlar said:

It was the same for me at Udon yesterday....however although my extension was done on 6th Feb(30 days in advance) the actual start date for extension is 6th March. My fear is that the start date will be used under new rules as opposed to the granting date 6th Feb. Does anyone have a definitive answer 're 1st March change of rules. Approved date or start date to take precedence?

You should have asked.  Fortunately, my extension is effective February 13, so no question that it falls before March 1st.

[cmarshall]

5 minutes ago, NancyL said:

You should have asked.  Fortunately, my extension is effective February 13, so no question that it falls before March 1st.

But you don't know what it actually means for the regulations to take effect on March 1, even if the officers uniformly recognize that start date, which they don't.  So, if you obtained your extension just now via the bank deposit method, but you plan to use the income method next year, and if you then spend down your deposits below 800k and then below 400k, have you violated the terms of your extension?  Do you know if those requirements apply to the current extension or only the next one?  I doubt anyone can answer that, but if the IO next year has a different answer from you, you could have a problem.

 

It's worth remembering what the point of view of the IO is likely to be.  He is not going to get into trouble for a refusal to accept your renewal even if incorrect, while he could very well get into trouble for granting an extension that is subsequently deemed incorrect.  So when in doubt he is better off refusing.  Bureaucrats everywhere have the same outlook.

 

I think the safe harbor is, if you can afford to, take the strictest possible interpretation and make sure that you fulfill it to the letter.  In my own case I just got my first one-year extension on retirement based on bank deposits.  I could make monthly transfers into the BBK bank account > THB 65k until my Social Security kicks in in August, but since the monthly deposits from now until Aug. would not be from a pension, I can't be sure that I won't be refused next year.  Therefore the safest, if not most convenient, path for me is to maintain 800k until my 2020 renewal and only after that switch to the income method, if that looks to be acceptable at that time.  I would prefer to make use of the 800k going forward, but the amount of risk I am willing to accept for that convenience is zero.

[statman78]

Mojaco,  Thanks for the update.  While I live only about 15 away from the Chiang Rai office. My wife and I go to Mae Sai, about a 1 hour drive.  You can do your extension anytime unlike the Chiang Rai office where you can only do it Monday and Wednesday.  I find the workers in Mae Sai are friendlier and more helpful.  My wife spoke to them yesterday and was told the new rules take effect March 1.

 

For people using the income method they told us that my bankbook should show that the deposits were foreign currency transfers.  At Bangkok Bank the transaction is shown as FTT.  They also recommend a letter from the bank confirming the deposits.  After I receive the deposit I can withdraw the money and use it.  This time I used the 800K in the bank.  Next time I am using the 65K monthly.

[gavlar]

4 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

But you don't know what it actually means for the regulations to take effect on March 1, even if the officers uniformly recognize that start date, which they don't.  So, if you obtained your extension just now via the bank deposit method, but you plan to use the income method next year, and if you then spend down your deposits below 800k and then below 400k, have you violated the terms of your extension?  Do you know if those requirements apply to the current extension or only the next one?  I doubt anyone can answer that, but if the IO next year has a different answer from you, you could have a problem.

 

It's worth remembering what the point of view of the IO is likely to be.  He is not going to get into trouble for a refusal to accept your renewal even if incorrect, while he could very well get into trouble for granting an extension that is subsequently deemed incorrect.  So when in doubt he is better off refusing.  Bureaucrats everywhere have the same outlook.

 

I think the safe harbor is, if you can afford to, take the strictest possible interpretation and make sure that you fulfill it to the letter.  In my own case I just got my first one-year extension on retirement based on bank deposits.  I could make monthly transfers into the BBK bank account > THB 65k until my Social Security kicks in in August, but since the monthly deposits from now until Aug. would not be from a pension, I can't be sure that I won't be refused next year.  Therefore the safest, if not most convenient, path for me is to maintain 800k until my 2020 renewal and only after that switch to the income method, if that looks to be acceptable at that time.  I would prefer to make use of the 800k going forward, but the amount of risk I am willing to accept for that convenience is zero.

Sorry I should have said I did ask, the answer was they didn't know. They checked the old rule on 800k seasoning for 3 not 2 months but basically they said don't worry!

Hence my post.

As I was planning to start using the 800k now I think I'll send some further funds from abroad until there is real clarity...I.e treat it as new rules given start date.

[jacko45k]

3 hours ago, Hotrats said:

One officer told me I had to bring my updated bank book with me at my next 90 day report. Another officer told me they would be checking when I made my next annual extension. So, no clarity there.

Likely both I bet!

[gavlar]

16 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

But you don't know what it actually means for the regulations to take effect on March 1, even if the officers uniformly recognize that start date, which they don't.  So, if you obtained your extension just now via the bank deposit method, but you plan to use the income method next year, and if you then spend down your deposits below 800k and then below 400k, have you violated the terms of your extension?  Do you know if those requirements apply to the current extension or only the next one?  I doubt anyone can answer that, but if the IO next year has a different answer from you, you could have a problem.

 

It's worth remembering what the point of view of the IO is likely to be.  He is not going to get into trouble for a refusal to accept your renewal even if incorrect, while he could very well get into trouble for granting an extension that is subsequently deemed incorrect.  So when in doubt he is better off refusing.  Bureaucrats everywhere have the same outlook.

 

I think the safe harbor is, if you can afford to, take the strictest possible interpretation and make sure that you fulfill it to the letter.  In my own case I just got my first one-year extension on retirement based on bank deposits.  I could make monthly transfers into the BBK bank account > THB 65k until my Social Security kicks in in August, but since the monthly deposits from now until Aug. would not be from a pension, I can't be sure that I won't be refused next year.  Therefore the safest, if not most convenient, path for me is to maintain 800k until my 2020 renewal and only after that switch to the income method, if that looks to be acceptable at that time.  I would prefer to make use of the 800k going forward, but the amount of risk I am willing to accept for that convenience is zero.

Great post..by the rules we know as of now switching from 800k to mthly income requires maintaining both methods for a year!

[Chongalulu]

22 hours ago, Thailand said:

An immigration clusterf--k of epic proportions.

A PREDICTABLE immigration clusterf....

[jacko45k]

6 minutes ago, gavlar said:

Great post..by the rules we know as of now switching from 800k to mthly income requires maintaining both methods for a year!

Yes it does doesn't it. Although 10 months free if you switch back.... no probably not. A retirement extension requires 2 years holding monies on deposit.

[ThaiPauly]

48 minutes ago, statman78 said:

Mojaco,  Thanks for the update.  While I live only about 15 away from the Chiang Rai office. My wife and I go to Mae Sai, about a 1 hour drive.  You can do your extension anytime unlike the Chiang Rai office where you can only do it Monday and Wednesday.  I find the workers in Mae Sai are friendlier and more helpful.  My wife spoke to them yesterday and was told the new rules take effect March 1.

 

For people using the income method they told us that my bankbook should show that the deposits were foreign currency transfers.  At Bangkok Bank the transaction is shown as FTT.  They also recommend a letter from the bank confirming the deposits.  After I receive the deposit I can withdraw the money and use it.  This time I used the 800K in the bank.  Next time I am using the 65K monthly.

Does that 65k have to be from a pension?

[wwest5829]

22 hours ago, NancyL said:

To make copies of the Thai bankbook, with each monthly pension deposit highlighted in yellow, a letter from the bank verifying the current balance and ownership of the account and also to bring the annual letter from the pension provider of how much pension is received.  

I was good until I read that you had to provide a letter from the “pension provider”. As an American with no “pension provider”, I am thrown for a loss. Yes, I have Social Security but that covers only 1/2 of the required 65k per month. I match that amount with my own funds drawn from 4 additional sources (none of which are set amounts but dependent on my financial decisions). Thoughts?

[steve73]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

But you don't know what it actually means for the regulations to take effect on March 1, even if the officers uniformly recognize that start date, which they don't.  So, if you obtained your extension just now via the bank deposit method, but you plan to use the income method next year, and if you then spend down your deposits below 800k and then below 400k, have you violated the terms of your extension?  Do you know if those requirements apply to the current extension or only the next one?  I doubt anyone can answer that, but if the IO next year has a different answer from you, you could have a problem.

 

It's worth remembering what the point of view of the IO is likely to be.  He is not going to get into trouble for a refusal to accept your renewal even if incorrect, while he could very well get into trouble for granting an extension that is subsequently deemed incorrect.  So when in doubt he is better off refusing.  Bureaucrats everywhere have the same outlook.

 

I think the safe harbor is, if you can afford to, take the strictest possible interpretation and make sure that you fulfill it to the letter.  In my own case I just got my first one-year extension on retirement based on bank deposits.  I could make monthly transfers into the BBK bank account > THB 65k until my Social Security kicks in in August, but since the monthly deposits from now until Aug. would not be from a pension, I can't be sure that I won't be refused next year.  Therefore the safest, if not most convenient, path for me is to maintain 800k until my 2020 renewal and only after that switch to the income method, if that looks to be acceptable at that time.  I would prefer to make use of the 800k going forward, but the amount of risk I am willing to accept for that convenience is zero.

The most severe interpretation of these latest rules COULD be that anyone applying for their extension after 1st March 2019 has to have had the 800/400k minimums since their previous extension.

Obviously this would be completely unreasonable, but from some of the stories I've heard, some IO's could maybe think to interpret it this way... 

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

I was good until I read that you had to provide a letter from the “pension provider”. As an American with no “pension provider”, I am thrown for a loss. Yes, I have Social Security but that covers only 1/2 of the required 65k per month. I match that amount with my own funds drawn from 4 additional sources (none of which are set amounts but dependent on my financial decisions). Thoughts?

Based on what we know now, I would suggest this --

 

Switch to the 800K method if you can for your next extension

 

A month before your next extension application begins monthly imports of your S.S. income only

 

This will be to prepare for a combo method without embassy letter for the following year's extension, by which time the acceptance and enforcement mechanics will be more clear and you'll have 12 monthly imports of the S.S. going back

 

If you can't do the 800K method now, start right away with importing only your S.S. amount monthly and prepare to be one of the earlier test cases of combo applications without embassy letters.

 

An combo application without showing 12 months back record is potentially problematical. How are they supposed to annualize that? It's easy if over 65K but you'd be getting monthly transfers under that, and each with different sums based on exchange rates.

 

With a combo application you will be subject to similar rules as for the bank method as far as keeping your application bank balance set for three months after and also "probably" a minimum of 400K locked up all year.

 

Example of such an application --

Income shown with 12 international transfers 450K

Bank balance of 400K

Not 350K because of the lock up rules of 400K for bank method

Season the 400K for two months before and three months after

Don't go below 400K for the entire year