Do you believe in God and why

[save the frogs]

9 hours ago, Neeranam said:

It's amazing how many Westerners don't even believe in Karma.

I remember being at a lecture by a senior Tibetan Lama in Dharmasala, India.

When the translator told him that most Westerners didn't believe in Karma he laughed aloud for ages.

Hindu, Buddhist believe in Karma, as did Jesus. I'm not sure how many Christians have decided it doesn't exist; it seems obvious to me, but then again, I've seen it in action and witnessed proof of it. 

 

interesting anecdote.

well, already we have someone here saying there is no proof of karma.

 

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, save the frogs said:

 

well, already we have someone here saying there is no proof of karma.

 

Is amazing what Tibetans do to find new Lamas. 

Whoever said that is wrong. 

[Neeranam]

12 hours ago, Woof999 said:

Can you provide an example that couldn't equally be explained by coincidence?

No, but I could provide details of instant karma and also reincarnation. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Neeranam

[Nemises]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:01 PM, Neeranam said:

 

God obviously existed well before man.  

Which God are you referring to? (FYI there’s over 10,000 Gods)

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, Hummin said:

Come on, dont do that to us!

 

Israel!

It's off topic on this thread, unless talking about Judaism.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Nemises said:

Which God are you referring to? (FYI there’s over 10,000 Gods)

Those are man made inventions. There is only one God that created the universe.

[save the frogs]

30 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Those are man made inventions. There is only one God that created the universe.

you're doing 'your team' a disservice by making claims like that.

nobody knows what God really is and how the universe was created.

if you don't know, then you don't know. 

you're never going to convince anyone of anything by making baseless claims. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

you're doing 'your team' a disservice by making claims like that.

nobody knows what God really is and how the universe was created.

if you don't know, then you don't know. 

you're never going to convince anyone of anything by making baseless claims. 

You don't know, atheists don't know, agnostics don't know. Don't generalise.

[save the frogs]

Richard Dawkins

 

He is not a big fan of the God of the Bible.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction. Jealous and proud of it. A petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak. A vindictive blood-thirsty ethnic cleanser. A misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, megaolomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

 

He states that no one knows how the universe was created

 

He says "you might find a signature of some sort of designer" in biology. So he leaves the possibility open for intelligent design.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by save the frogs

[Woof999]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

No, but I could provide details of instant karma and also reincarnation. 

That would be more coincidence followed by something you cannot possibly prove yet seem to state as fact.

 

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You don't know, atheists don't know, agnostics don't know. Don't generalise.

Surely nobody knows? You follow two generalisations with a request to not generalise?

[Sunmaster]

Someone mentioned "our team" vs the materialistic team a few posts back. This made me think and I tried to find out what exactly it means to be in one team or the other. 
Obviously, these categorizations are very clumsy, as there are many different variations on both sides of the great divide. Most materialists would put MauGR1, TBL and me in the same basket, and while we generally agree on the existence of something beyond our material bodies,  there are fundamental differences in our worldview, especially between TBL and me. 

So, what is the most basic difference between us (the believers) and them (the infidels, just kidding ???? )?
I'm not going to quote anyone, link to YT videos or other websites....I think I can make this point on my own.

THEM (materialists, atheists)
People in this team have learned to use their outer cognitive senses to make sense of the world. Touch, smell, sight, taste and hearing are the tools used by this team to provide data from the outside world and feed it to the brain. The brain will then take this data, let it run through a series of filters (our core beliefs) and package it in neat boxes that can be easily archived and easily accessed at any time. 
These team members identify with the artificial construct that is the ego. "I am {insert name}. I am a plumber. I am a husband." Yes, your personal identity is a construct, built up in your childhood. Just ask yourself....who were you before you were given a name, before you developed likes and dislikes, before you developed a sense of self?

US (religious, spiritual)
People in this team grew up learning the same things as the other team (using the 5 outer senses), but for some reason, they discovered that there is more to life than what these 5 senses can sense. They found that there are aspects of themselves that can not be interpreted using the outer senses, and that rationality is useless when trying to make sense of this new data. 
The new data doesn't come from the outside world, but comes from within, and can be interpreted by a different set of senses (imagination, intention, intuition...). 
These team members are not so tightly identified with their ego that they can't accept anything beyond that very narrow band of data. 

So, at the most basic: "them" look outwards using the 5 outer senses, "us" look outwards as well, but also rely on the inner senses to look inwards.

And no, I don't think they are equal at all. It's literally like going through life using only 5 senses when in reality  you have 5 more. It's crippling, to say the least. You are limiting yourself.

The ego is the tip of the iceberg, hellbent on ignoring or outright denying the existence of the rest of the iceberg.
But that other part is there, whether you like it or not, whether you can see it or not....and it's huge, it's infinite in fact....and IT'S YOU!



 

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, Woof999 said:

That would be more coincidence followed by something you cannot possibly prove yet seem to state as fact.

 

Surely nobody knows? You follow two generalisations with a request to not generalise?

Did you not extrapolate? The implication was that believers do know. I was just trying to cut down on the length of the post, but ended up having to use a lot more words to explain it to you.

 

Yes believers know, which is why we are believers. Our knowledge comes from personal experience and you won't get any links for it.

As to whether you believe me or not, up to you.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Sunmaster said:

Someone mentioned "our team" vs the materialistic team a few posts back. This made me think and I tried to find out what exactly it means to be in one team or the other. 
Obviously, these categorizations are very clumsy, as there are many different variations on both sides of the great divide. Most materialists would put MauGR1, TBL and me in the same basket, and while we generally agree on the existence of something beyond our material bodies,  there are fundamental differences in our worldview, especially between TBL and me. 

So, what is the most basic difference between us (the believers) and them (the infidels, just kidding ???? )?
I'm not going to quote anyone, link to YT videos or other websites....I think I can make this point on my own.

THEM (materialists, atheists)
People in this team have learned to use their outer cognitive senses to make sense of the world. Touch, smell, sight, taste and hearing are the tools used by this team to provide data from the outside world and feed it to the brain. The brain will then take this data, let it run through a series of filters (our core beliefs) and package it in neat boxes that can be easily archived and easily accessed at any time. 
These team members identify with the artificial construct that is the ego. "I am {insert name}. I am a plumber. I am a husband." Yes, your personal identity is a construct, built up in your childhood. Just ask yourself....who were you before you were given a name, before you developed likes and dislikes, before you developed a sense of self?

US (religious, spiritual)
People in this team grew up learning the same things as the other team (using the 5 outer senses), but for some reason, they discovered that there is more to life than what these 5 senses can sense. They found that there are aspects of themselves that can not be interpreted using the outer senses, and that rationality is useless when trying to make sense of this new data. 
The new data doesn't come from the outside world, but comes from within, and can be interpreted by a different set of senses (imagination, intention, intuition...). 
These team members are not so tightly identified with their ego that they can't accept anything beyond that very narrow band of data. 

So, at the most basic: "them" look outwards using the 5 outer senses, "us" look outwards as well, but also rely on the inner senses to look inwards.

And no, I don't think they are equal at all. It's literally like going through life using only 5 senses when in reality  you have 5 more. It's crippling, to say the least. You are limiting yourself.

The ego is the tip of the iceberg, hellbent on ignoring or outright denying the existence of the rest of the iceberg.
But that other part is there, whether you like it or not, whether you can see it or not....and it's huge, it's infinite in fact....and IT'S YOU!



 

EXCELLENT post, but I think some are so wedded to their opinions  that God does not exist that they will not accept your words. Remember the parable about seed on stony ground?

It's not even a logical position to take, given they can't prove that God does not exist, ergo, the possibility has to exist. 

 

They could learn from Dr Dawkins ( in a previous post ) that the possibility exists.

 

especially between TBL and me. 

Indeed, that would be true, but we are on the same side at least.

[Doctor Tom]

On 2/12/2023 at 7:38 PM, mauGR1 said:

If so, atheists and agnostics would be, on an average, much more intelligent than believers. 

Are there any scientific studies which support that theory?

Umm, tricky one that. More logical and perhaps less gullible, but no, not more intelligent, they just use their intelligence to better effect 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

Umm, tricky one that. More logical and perhaps less gullible, but no, not more intelligent, they just use their intelligence to better effect 

I wonder what that "better effect " would be ... can you expand, just for the sake of the debate.?

[xylophone]

11 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Is amazing what Tibetans do to find new Lamas. 

Whoever said that is wrong. 

Plenty in South America to choose from ????.

 

[Doctor Tom]

1 minute ago, mauGR1 said:

I wonder what that "better effect " would be ... can you expand, just for the sake of the debate.?

Glad to.  It enables them to educate the others in the reality of life, death, science, the Universe and the lack of a God in all of this. 'Science rules', based on empirical evidence, religion  is mystical, fairy tail dogma, based on no evidence at all and is designed from the earliest times of human existence to control the plebs.

 

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, Nemises said:

Which God are you referring to? (FYI there’s over 10,000 Gods)

There is only one God but many people have names for the same thing. 

[Hummin]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

There is only one God but many people have names for the same thing. 

There is a god for anything and everyone, but they need to be connected. How could they manage to balance everything if not? Yin Yang

 

There is far more goods than 10 000 if you count Indian philosophy and culture, and if you add new age, we are all gods.

 

Nature is great ????

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Hummin

[Neeranam]

Once, in Mount Abu, India, my friend and I went to spiritual centre where a yogi was giving 'drishti'. This was an amazing spiritual experience. 

We sat looking at her and our 3rd eyes connected with what seemed like a lightning bolt. We couldn't see here head as there was just like a ball of soft, intense light around where her head should have been. Some may call this an aura, but my understanding and what she said was that she had a direct link to the 'supreme soul' or God and channelled the power to us. 

I've been trying for years to get this link back but only really possible when in deep meditation, although a glimpse comes from time to time during my waking day. I was educated in Science, at the same school as Lord Byron :), and studied pure mathematics at university and was a total atheist. Now, I am convinced that we are souls and there is one supreme soul. You only realize you were sleeping when you wake up. 

[Doctor Tom]

29 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

There is only one God but many people have names for the same thing. 

10,000 eh?  Well that just goes to show, if not prove, the idiocy of it all. 

[mauGR1]

31 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

Glad to.  It enables them to educate the others in the reality of life, death, science, the Universe and the lack of a God in all of this. 'Science rules', based on empirical evidence, religion  is mystical, fairy tail dogma, based on no evidence at all and is designed from the earliest times of human existence to control the plebs.

 

Thanks for the clear answer, but I'm very suspicious about a science which is devoid of morality.

Why i say that ?

Because it's obvious that if the cult of profit, which follows the cult of materialism, is allowed to become totalitarian, we're in deep trouble. 

... oh wait, it's already happening !

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Doctor Tom said:

10,000 eh?  Well that just goes to show, if not prove, the idiocy of it all. 

What is idiotic about God?

[Doctor Tom]

3 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Thanks for the clear answer, but I'm very suspicious about a science which is devoid of morality.

Why i say that ?

Because it's obvious that if the cult of profit, which follows the cult of materialism, is allowed to become totalitarian, we're in deep trouble. 

... oh wait, it's already happening !

Yes I agree that science can and is a force for good and for evil, but that's humans for you.  We are a savage, violent, manipulative, selfish, self serving species. I have no doubt at all that we will destroy ourselves eventually.  

[Doctor Tom]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What is idiotic about God?

All fairy tales and mythical stories of Gods and Devils are, by definition, idiotic,  designed to be entertaining, usually to children,  and not to be taken seriously,. as in Guardians of the Galaxy for example. 

[Neeranam]

Just now, Doctor Tom said:

All fairy tales and mythical stories of Gods and Devils are, by definition, idiotic,  designed to be entertaining, usually to children,  and not to be taken seriously,. as in Guardians of the Galaxy for example. 

What a strange thing to say, I can only assume you are trolling. 

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

Yes I agree that science can and is a force for good and for evil, but that's humans for you.  We are a savage, violent, manipulative, selfish, self serving species. I have no doubt at all that we will destroy ourselves eventually.  

That's a very honest answer, so don't you think that, instead of ditching religion and adoring the profit, could be a better idea to take the best from religion (intended as a moral code for a peaceful  cohabitation), and the best from science ( intended as a research for the well being of the majority) , to improve our quality of life?

Of course, there are problems with the pollution created by billions of humans, but how those problems can be solved if there is no peace ?

[owl sees all]

3 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Someone mentioned "our team" vs the materialistic team a few posts back. This made me think and I tried to find out what exactly it means to be in one team or the other. 
Obviously, these categorizations are very clumsy, as there are many different variations on both sides of the great divide. Most materialists would put MauGR1, TBL and me in the same basket, and while we generally agree on the existence of something beyond our material bodies,  there are fundamental differences in our worldview, especially between TBL and me. 

So, what is the most basic difference between us (the believers) and them (the infidels, just kidding ???? )?
I'm not going to quote anyone, link to YT videos or other websites....I think I can make this point on my own.

THEM (materialists, atheists)
People in this team have learned to use their outer cognitive senses to make sense of the world. Touch, smell, sight, taste and hearing are the tools used by this team to provide data from the outside world and feed it to the brain. The brain will then take this data, let it run through a series of filters (our core beliefs) and package it in neat boxes that can be easily archived and easily accessed at any time. 
These team members identify with the artificial construct that is the ego. "I am {insert name}. I am a plumber. I am a husband." Yes, your personal identity is a construct, built up in your childhood. Just ask yourself....who were you before you were given a name, before you developed likes and dislikes, before you developed a sense of self?

US (religious, spiritual)
People in this team grew up learning the same things as the other team (using the 5 outer senses), but for some reason, they discovered that there is more to life than what these 5 senses can sense. They found that there are aspects of themselves that can not be interpreted using the outer senses, and that rationality is useless when trying to make sense of this new data. 
The new data doesn't come from the outside world, but comes from within, and can be interpreted by a different set of senses (imagination, intention, intuition...). 
These team members are not so tightly identified with their ego that they can't accept anything beyond that very narrow band of data. 

So, at the most basic: "them" look outwards using the 5 outer senses, "us" look outwards as well, but also rely on the inner senses to look inwards.

And no, I don't think they are equal at all. It's literally like going through life using only 5 senses when in reality  you have 5 more. It's crippling, to say the least. You are limiting yourself.

The ego is the tip of the iceberg, hellbent on ignoring or outright denying the existence of the rest of the iceberg.
But that other part is there, whether you like it or not, whether you can see it or not....and it's huge, it's infinite in fact....and IT'S YOU!



 

 

Very long and thought-provoking post.

 

I think the onus is on the believers to give evidence for their beliefs. Not for the non-believers to do anything. But if a poster thinks that we are a food source - to be harvested at a future time - then it would be appropriate to say why that is believed.

 

If god exists - and we are probably agreed that we are talking about the one that created the world - where does he reside and what is his energy source? Also his/her/its age would be billions of years old. Too much for me to imagine.

 

 

[Sunmaster]

28 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

 

Very long and thought-provoking post.

 

I think the onus is on the believers to give evidence for their beliefs. Not for the non-believers to do anything. But if a poster thinks that we are a food source - to be harvested at a future time - then it would be appropriate to say why that is believed.

 

If god exists - and we are probably agreed that we are talking about the one that created the world - where does he reside and what is his energy source? Also his/her/its age would be billions of years old. Too much for me to imagine.

 

 

You see, I try not to use the word God, because then, inevitably, someone will ask "which God".

I prefer to talk about the inner world, because all that is religious or spiritual, comes from there. Including the 10.000 Indian gods, the one God, or no God (non-dualistic worldview) for that matter.

The outer world, the one we so diligently explore and categorise with our outer senses and machines, is just a small part of the whole.

This is no secret or special knowledge of a few selected believers. It is the core of every religion and spiritual school. And it's there for anyone willing to have a look and find out by himself if the knowledge passed on through countless generations is true or not. 

Like I said, the inner world is not subject to the same laws as the outer world, meaning that the tools we use to understand the physical universe are useless when exploring your inner world.

 

There is guaranteed no better way to understand the inner realm (your true Self) than to use meditation and introspection.

 

Asking where God resides, how old he is, where his power comes from etc....are useless and irrelevant questions, considering we can't even answer the more basic question "Who am I?"

[Sunmaster]

50 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

I think the onus is on the believers to give evidence for their beliefs. Not for the non-believers to do anything. But if a poster thinks that we are a food source - to be harvested at a future time - then it would be appropriate to say why that is believed.

 

Honestly, I don't think the onus should be on one side or the other to convince anyone. 

The onus, or responsibility, is only towards yourself. 

If one doesn't want to look inwards, then that's perfectly fine. It is not fine however, to ridicule and dismiss those who do.