Anti-vaxers. Nuts, or not ?

[cmarshall]

11 hours ago, oompie69 said:

Nuts they might be, but they have a right to choose not to get it. Never mind what they base their motivation on.

Those that choose not to get it will in no way be a threat to those that do.

However, what is not needed is opposing sides insulting and / or labeling the other side. This is  less that adult behaviour.

Time will tell if the various vaccines being tested now do what they are being touted to do.   

Not in my opinion.  Vaccines against epidemics should be compulsory.  Those who don't take it are free-riding on the herd immunity that the rest of us who do get innoculated provide.  The refuseniks threaten the success of the entire vaccine program if their numbers are high enough.  That's not a legitimate right they have.

[DrDave]

1 hour ago, farang51 said:

It falls on all of us. If I am vaccinated, I may get infected by one of the idiots and then in turn infect granny. It will be a poor excuse to say it was the anti-vaxer that should have used a mask etc. Besides, I guess that many of the anti-vaxers are also anti-mask. We need to be vigilant for some time; at least until we achieve herd immunity through the vaccines.

 

 

Herd immunity could take years if the majority of people refuse the vaccine.

BTW- why wouldn't granny have been vaccinated?  If it's YOUR granny, then I understand your desire to keep her safe. On the other hand, and stating this in the most pragmatic way possible, it's not my responsibility to keep those safe who refuse to keep themselves safe. This, taken in context of the even more severe economic and social destruction that will be caused by dragging out the time required to reach herd immunity.

[farang51]

6 minutes ago, DrDave said:

BTW- why wouldn't granny have been vaccinated?  If it's YOUR granny, then I understand your desire to keep her safe. On the other hand, and stating this in the most pragmatic way possible, it's not my responsibility to keep those safe who refuse to keep themselves safe.

I agree with the last part; however, some people may not get vaccinated because they refuse it but because the vaccine may be dangerous for them. They may be allergic to the vaccine or they may have to decline for other reasons.

 

I am not sure, but I believe that people that had an organ transplant cannot get vaccinated either as that will activate their immune system, which may mean rejection of the transplanted organ.

 

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'm not a trusting person, getting inline for drugs because everyone is doing it isn't in my DNA. I've been pumped full of vaccines for many years in order to keep a job I loved. Now I get to be incharge of what needles I get poked with.

 I can understand your desire to be in control of what happens to you. Having said that, can you say if any of the multiple vaccines you were pumped full of produced a intolerable adverse reaction?

[Mark Nothing]

Is the medical profession for the benefit of the citizens or are the citizens for the benefit of the medical profession?

 

So great is the almost mystical reverence in which vaccination is held by the medical profession and so powerful the commercial interests that benefit by its extensive use, that it has become a breach of medical etiquette to question its use or to report unfavorable results.

[Lacessit]

15 hours ago, Mark Nothing said:

Is the medical profession for the benefit of the citizens or are the citizens for the benefit of the medical profession?

 

So great is the almost mystical reverence in which vaccination is held by the medical profession and so powerful the commercial interests that benefit by its extensive use, that it has become a breach of medical etiquette to question its use or to report unfavorable results.

It's called experience. Before Jenner discovered cowpox as the first vaccine, smallpox routinely killed 10-20% of any population where it got a foothold. Smallpox was declared eradicated in 1980. Polio, tuberculosis, typhoid - how many examples do you need?

There is no such thing as a perfect world, or a perfect vaccine. It becomes a case of the greatest good for the greatest number. There will always be a small minority with side effects, which is what anti-vaxxers seize on.

The medical profession makes mistakes, no argument. Having said that, I would not be typing this if it was not for their interventions. When a profession has the power of life and death over me, I'm inclined to think they are worth their wage.

In civilized countries, the cost of medical care and pharmaceuticals is maintained at an affordable level for the benefit of all. When unbridled greed rules, different story. Think Martin Shkreli.

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

17 hours ago, Mark Nothing said:

So great is the almost mystical reverence in which vaccination is held by the medical profession and so powerful the commercial interests that benefit by its extensive use, that it has become a breach of medical etiquette to question its use or to report unfavorable results.

Absolutely untrue - questions about any aspect of medicine (or science in general) are always welcome and unfavourable results with vaccines are routinely and widely reported.

 

In fact in the US they have the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that is open for everyone, lay people and medical professionals alike, to report any kind of adverse event that might even possibly be related to a vaccine.

 

The UK, Canada and Australia all have similar systems and I dare say various other countries do as well.

 

In fact, the VAERS database is often (incorrectly) quoted by anti-vaxxers as evidence that vaccines are unsafe, because it has so many reports of vaccine adverse events. This argument ignores the fact that anyone can enter data into VAERS and most of the adverse events reported are events that, while they occurred after a vaccine was given, turn out on closer inspection to have nothing whatsoever to do with the vaccine.

Edited December 19, 2020 by GroveHillWanderer

[bermondburi]

On 12/17/2020 at 5:47 PM, oompie69 said:

Nuts they might be, but they have a right to choose not to get it. Never mind what they base their motivation on.

Those that choose not to get it will in no way be a threat to those that do.

However, what is not needed is opposing sides insulting and / or labeling the other side. This is  less that adult behaviour.

Time will tell if the various vaccines being tested now do what they are being touted to do.   

Firstly, there may be those such as the elderly where the efficacy of a vaccine is very low. 

 

Secondly, there is no guarantee that having a vaccine reduces transmission although that may be the case, and definitely the unvaccinated would still be transmitting the virus. 

 

And thirdly, just as it someone's right not to take the vaccine, it is also a country's right to insist that someone has taken the vaccine as a condition of entry. Expect travel restrictions in the future for the unvaccinated. 

 

Quantas has already said they won't carry the unvaccinated. Expect other airlines to follow. Also expect that proof of vaccination must be shown to obtain visas, entry into a country etc. 

 

Don't like it, don't travel. ????

[Peter Denis]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Sorry, that's incorrect. Coronavirus is affecting many younger people with weeks or months of rehabilitation. It attacks lung tissue, so it is like a non-smoker suddenly becoming a two-pack a day smoker. That's why the medical profession is so alarmed by it.

Over 7 million active cases of COVID-19 in the USA. About a month ago, it was 2.5 million. You think that can be just shuffled aside? IMO the worst is yet to come.

I would be interested if you could post the data of the Age distribution and this NOT on the number of cases (simply meaning you tested positive with the PCR-test), but on the number of people hospitalized with severe symptoms as well as those that died OF covid (and not WITH it).

I have seen statistics on the above (hence my statement) but cannot find them anymore otherwise I'd post them in response.

[KhaoNiaw]

44 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Why the smiling face at the end of your doom-and-gloom post?
It's rather sad how a virus basically only affecting the elderly with underlying conditions or those with challenged immune-systems, has led to such over-reaction/hysteria destroying the livelihoods and future of many.

Steve Bruce, manager of Newcastle United in the UK, has seen the effects on young professional sportsmen and has a couple of players who won't be recovering in just a week or two:

“I’ve seen the effect on young, extremely fit professional footballers and the effect it’s had on those two in particular. We hope they recover properly and I give them the time to recover because it's about the welfare of them and their long-term health. If one or two of them have got long-term Covid, like it seems, then it’s very difficult to manage.”

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55366088

 

"It’s frightening when you think they’re young, fit and supreme athletes,” he said. “If anybody needs reminding of how serious this is, then we have witnessed it. Some of them seem all right but then the fatigue element hits them, but for two it’s beyond that. They’re still going to take weeks to get back; you wouldn’t think that this long Covid thing is possible in fit, young athletes."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/18/newcastle-manager-steve-bruce-shocked-by-effect-of-covid-on-players

Edited December 19, 2020 by KhaoNiaw

[Lacessit]

16 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I would be interested if you could post the data of the Age distribution and this NOT on the number of cases (simply meaning you tested positive with the PCR-test), but on the number of people hospitalized with severe symptoms as well as those that died OF covid (and not WITH it).

I have seen statistics on the above (hence my statement) but cannot find them anymore otherwise I'd post them in response.

The information is skimpy on incapacitation, MSM is focusing on the death rate. I can say my son has friends in his age cohort who have been infected, one has died, two others are in rehab.

This virus is not the flu, that's the mistake Trump made.

[farang51]

24 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I would be interested if you could post the data of the Age distribution and this NOT on the number of cases (simply meaning you tested positive with the PCR-test), but on the number of people hospitalized with severe symptoms as well as those that died OF covid (and not WITH it).

This is from Denmark, the total number of hospitalized COVID patients from the start till now is 6.700, so around 20 percent is less than 50 years old. At the moment, we have more young people in the hospitals than in the first wave.

Edited December 19, 2020 by farang51

[HOAX]

2 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

I would be interested if you could post the data of the Age distribution and this NOT on the number of cases (simply meaning you tested positive with the PCR-test), but on the number of people hospitalized with severe symptoms as well as those that died OF covid (and not WITH it).

I have seen statistics on the above (hence my statement) but cannot find them anymore otherwise I'd post them in response.

I grant you the younger and healthier you are the less likely "anything", but that`s very far from none. There are plenty of young and healthy people who get severely ill as well. In fact, I`ve read somewhere in Norwegian news a couple of months ago that around 20% of people under 30 has gotten permanent damage to one or more organs (lungs, brain, heart etc...). Take that with a grain of salt as covid hasn`t been around long enough to gather the data necessary to give a definite answer. What is known however, is that severe fatigue is the most common long term (3 months+) effects, which is the same with all SARS viruses. That`s the brain. Data from previous SARS outbreaks,40% has chronic fatigue symptoms 3,5 years later. Who knows what that actually does to you permanently. Same goes to lowered lung capacity which is the second most. There`s a lot of unknowns, but the actual scientific medical community is warning you that it is much worse than you think. Who do you want to believe? Them or the people who educate themselves reading a random youtube comment?

 

Microsoft PowerPoint - EPI-WIN COVID Update 36_9 September 2020 - Long-term symptoms.pptx (who.int)

 

Sure, the top at WHO <deleted> up when they sucked up to China`s nonsense, that doesn`t mean the thousands of scientists working with WHO is like that. Be reasonable.

[impulse]

 

But I almost guaranty you that this link will be taken down, and I'll be derided as anti-vax.  So everyone that claims "no evidence" will be correct.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by impulse

[VBF]

2 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Steve Bruce, manager of Newcastle United in the UK, has seen the effects on young professional sportsmen and has a couple of players who won't be recovering in just a week or two:

“I’ve seen the effect on young, extremely fit professional footballers and the effect it’s had on those two in particular. We hope they recover properly and I give them the time to recover because it's about the welfare of them and their long-term health. If one or two of them have got long-term Covid, like it seems, then it’s very difficult to manage.”

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55366088

 

"It’s frightening when you think they’re young, fit and supreme athletes,” he said. “If anybody needs reminding of how serious this is, then we have witnessed it. Some of them seem all right but then the fatigue element hits them, but for two it’s beyond that. They’re still going to take weeks to get back; you wouldn’t think that this long Covid thing is possible in fit, young athletes."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/18/newcastle-manager-steve-bruce-shocked-by-effect-of-covid-on-players

And on a similar theme, Lewis Hamilton tested positive a few weeks ago, missed a GP and returned the following week for the final race of the season.

His performance was definitely not up to par and I was very surprised at how much it had affected this VERY fit guy.

 

Food for thought......

[tifino]

I think I will hold off, until I know there will be a proven Antidote to the Vaccine...

[VBF]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:56 AM, talahtnut said:

I reserve judgement for 10 years, the usual period for a new drug test.

For now I rely on Hippocrates wisdom, and not the government, BBC, or MSM.

 

The reason most vaccines take 10 years to be approved is the administration time and the fact that everything is done in stages, with meetings, committees and approvals before it can move on.

 

With this one, much of the work has been done in parallel with so-called "big pharma" actually risking a heap of money in the process had their assumptions been wrong

I don't know if it can be watched in Thailand but this recent BBC programme explains it very well   

 

Panorama - The Race for a Vaccine

 

UPDATE Just noticed that    @GroveHillWanderer     posted on Page 2 of this thread and explained it in a similar fashion.. I quote (thank you GHW):

 

"Also, as one of the scientists involved in the current efforts points out, asking how a vaccine could have been developed in such a short time when it used to take ten years, is like asking why we can cross the Atlantic in a few hours now, when in the 1800’s it used to take a couple of weeks. Advances in technology, forward planning and the almost unlimited resources thrown at this, have enabled the researchers to speed things up tremendously."

Edited December 19, 2020 by VBF

[VBF]

On 12/17/2020 at 10:01 PM, Jingthing said:

There is a huge difference between people that are rationally skeptical and cautious and want to be well informed about a vaccine before taking it and people that are obsessed with calling all vaccines evil and poison as well as spreading total crazy lies that the Covid-19 pandemic and vaccine is a conspiracy theory by Bill Gates to implant chips in people. 

Spot on ????

You often find that these same people blame 5G for Covid

I  believe the appropriate saying is "Go figure" ????

Edited December 19, 2020 by VBF

[tifino]

seeing as this one is all about discussing Nuts or Not:

 

here is this one...

 

Bad things always come in threes...

 

 -  there was the anti trench rot vaxx, that caused 1918

 - there was the thalidomide vaxx, that cost many limbs

 

 - and now the triage druids circle might finally be complete in 2020 

[polpott]

6 minutes ago, tifino said:

seeing as this one is all about discussing Nuts or Not:

 

here is this one...

 

Bad things always come in threes...

 

 -  there was the anti trench rot vaxx, that caused 1918

 - there was the thalidomide vaxx, that cost many limbs

 

 - and now the triage druids circle might finally be complete in 2020 

No idea about an "anti trench rot" vaccine but Thalidomide wasn't a vaccine.

 

Nuts.

[mtls2005]

13 hours ago, impulse said:

But I almost guaranty you that this link will be taken down, and I'll be derided as anti-vax.  So everyone that claims "no evidence" will be correct.

 

Illinois medical center resumes COVID-19 vaccinations after investigating 'reactions'
 

Four team members at Advocate Condell Medical Center in Libertyville, Illinois, experienced "tingling and elevated heart rate," according to a press release.

 

https://abc13.com/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-reaction/8896251/

 

 

"tingling and elevated heart rate"  Sheesh, some chaps pay for this sort of experience.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by mtls2005

[Patong2021]

13 hours ago, impulse said:

But I almost guaranty you that this link will be taken down, and I'll be derided as anti-vax.  So everyone that claims "no evidence" will be correct.

 

Did you listen? The side effects were "tingling" and elevated heart rate.  I would not consider this significant.  Tell me, how many people have died from the vaccine?  These vaccines are being watched closely and I expect that as soon as someone complains, they will pause.   Given option of vaccine and some  small discomfort or potential of being infected with Covid19 and being in hospital and maybe dying, I will take vaccine, thank you. 

I am all for discussion of  merit of a vaccine, but the people who are contrary are always giving crazy reasons against the vaccine. 

[Surelynot]

13 hours ago, tifino said:

I think I will hold off, until I know there will be a proven Antidote to the Vaccine...

....or selfish stupidity...which ever comes first.

[tgw]

this kind of debate is entirely due to the faster pace of newer media, internet and social media.

 

100, 70 years ago, only few people would have had access to that information, published in specialized journals. The public wouldn't even know about vaccines being in tested.

 

today, everyone thinks he is a subject matter expert, including many overestimating the computing power of their own CPU...

 

also being highly intelligent and/or educated doesn't automatically come with the gifts of good judgement or the ability to think clearly. people without the latter are prolific on social media.

 

also, some people who earned some PhD 40 years ago went nuts in the meanwhile.

Edited December 20, 2020 by tgw

[patman30]

"anti-vax"
is a term coined by MSM, govs etc
and used by people who are "pro mandatory vax"

many people are simply "pro choice"
there are an extremely low number of people that are actually "anti-vax"
calling for them to be banned so nobody can use them

The people who are pro choice
simply do not want something forced upon them against their will
or to be punished for choosing to live naturally without the vax
many have reasons such as religion too
many are concerned for their health, and any damage a rushed unproven vax could cause
many are concerned about vax manufacturers not being liable for any damage caused by a vax
Many simply do not want it, which should be their personal choice.

is it nuts to be cautious about ones health ?

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

 

Did you listen? The side effects were "tingling" and elevated heart rate.  I would not consider this significant.  Tell me, how many people have died from the vaccine?  These vaccines are being watched closely and I expect that as soon as someone complains, they will pause.   Given option of vaccine and some  small discomfort or potential of being infected with Covid19 and being in hospital and maybe dying, I will take vaccine, thank you. 

I am all for discussion of  merit of a vaccine, but the people who are contrary are always giving crazy reasons against the vaccine. 

So as long as you don't die from side effects then it's safe, right? I wouldn't call elevated heart rate... minor.

[farang51]

35 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

So as long as you don't die from side effects then it's safe, right? I wouldn't call elevated heart rate... minor.

Hm, I didn't know that could be dangerous. I better stop using the internet; sometimes I get both a tingling and elevated heart rate visiting certain websites.

 

Kidding aside; the important thing is whether the side effects are dangerous or can give long term side effects (more than a few days). That does not seem to be the case with the new COVID vaccines.

[VBF]

12 hours ago, tgw said:

this kind of debate is entirely due to the faster pace of newer media, internet and social media.

 

100, 70 years ago, only few people would have had access to that information, published in specialized journals. The public wouldn't even know about vaccines being in tested.

 

today, everyone thinks he is a subject matter expert, including many overestimating the computing power of their own CPU...

 

also being highly intelligent and/or educated doesn't automatically come with the gifts of good judgement or the ability to think clearly. people without the latter are prolific on social media.

 

also, some people who earned some PhD 40 years ago went nuts in the meanwhile.

Agree and would add:

 

Knowledge is definitely power, but a little knowledge, especially taken out of context, is very dangerous

 

Intelligence and common sense are not automatically present in the same individual.

 

Even if someone who "earned some PhD 40 years ago" is still perfectly sane, they may or may not have kept up with modern developments.

I passed my Electronics exams 40 + years ago: the syllabus still mentioned valves (tubes to Americans), transistors were the order of the day and integrated circuits were "a future development"

Just look how far we've come...I have chosen to keep up - not everybody does.

[impulse]

9 hours ago, farang51 said:

Hm, I didn't know that could be dangerous. I better stop using the internet; sometimes I get both a tingling and elevated heart rate visiting certain websites.

 

Kidding aside; the important thing is whether the side effects are dangerous or can give long term side effects (more than a few days). That does not seem to be the case with the new COVID vaccines.

 

I think the more important thing is that there are side effects that weren't predicted.  Which begs the question, what else are they going to find out now that the vaccine is out in the public.  For example, the European H1N1 vaccine that caused increased rates of narcolepsy in kids...

 

Maybe the side effects that they know about are benign.  It's the ones they haven't discovered yet.  But you have to test a vaccine for several years before you know what it's going to do in several years.  That's pretty much axiomatic... 

 

[Surelynot]

18 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

So as long as you don't die from side effects then it's safe, right? I wouldn't call elevated heart rate... minor.

You've never had sex I guess.