What would be the purpose of a "vaccine passport"?

[Trujillo]

Given what the makers of the two well-known vaccines have said about having no idea if vaccines will prevent infections or stop transmissions, what is the purpose of showing some certificate of vaccination when all that achieves, to a certain percentage efficacy, is preventing clinical disease?

Isn't Thailand, and other nations, under the misunderstanding that a vaccinated person is "safe" to reenter society, ie, they can't infect others? There has been a sort of folk mantra of, "Once we get the vaccine, we can start to get back to normal." According to the statements below by the very people who know best, this seems diametrically opposed to the facts on the ground. 

 

Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla:

 

"In an interview last month with NBC’s Lester Holt, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla acknowledged he didn’t know if the BNT162b2 vaccine would prevent the spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. “I think this is something that needs to be examined. We are not certain about that right now with what we know,” Bourla said."

 

Moderna’s chief medical officer, Tal Zaks, MD:

 

'In an interview with Axios on Nov. 23, Dr. Zaks noted, “When we start the deployment of [the mRNA-1273] vaccine, we will not have sufficient concrete data to prove that this vaccine reduces transmission.”'

 

Anthony Fauci, MD, director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID):

 

"... the primary endpoint of most of the [vaccines] is to prevent clinical disease, to prevent symptomatic disease. Not necessarily to prevent infection… that’s a secondary endpoint. But the primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected—prevent them from getting sick. And if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill. So that’s what we want to do....If the vaccine also allows you to prevent initial infection, that would be great. But what I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint—to prevent clinically recognizable disease. And that’s what we hope happens."

 

**** What has been measured in the trials on the BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines, as well as other experimental COVID-19 vaccines, is not whether they prevent infection with and transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus but how well they can prevent or minimize symptoms of COVID-19 disease that can be caused by the virus. There is no evidence to suggest the vaccines will have any effect in terms of protecting people from getting the virus and spreading it.

 

-- No-evidence-covid-19-vaccines-will-block-spread-of-coronavirus

[treetops]

It won't block but will reduce the spread of the disease, thus allowing the health service to cope.

[Rochford6]

We are at the mercy of our government if we choose to follow that path. 

[richard_smith237]

The purpose of a vaccine passport: 

 

To show that when entering a population we are contributing to the ‘herd immunisation’ ideology that when the vast majority of a population is vaccinated the spread of a virus will be reduced.

 

i.e. it is reported that 4 in 5 people (80%) who carry SARS-CoV-2 have symptoms (of a varying degree from mild cold symptoms to respiratory failure in severe cases). 1 in 5 (20%) have no symptoms.

 

Thus: the virus can spread far more readily from the 80% of un-vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 carriers.

 

A vaccine which is 95% effective ensures that the vast majority (95%) of SARS-CoV-2 carriers have no symptoms and thus do not, cough, sneeze as readily and thus do not contribute to the spread of SARS-CoV-2 as significantly as those with symptoms. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by richard_smith237

[onebir]

15 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

A vaccine which is 95% effective ensures that the vast majority (95%) of SARS-CoV-2 carriers have no symptoms and thus do not, cough, sneeze as readily and thus do not contribute to the spread of SARS-CoV-2 as significantly as those with symptoms. 

This seems a reasonable assumption. But this hasn't been established:

3 hours ago, Trujillo said:

What has been measured in the trials on the BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines, as well as other experimental COVID-19 vaccines, is not whether they prevent infection with and transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 but how well they can prevent or minimize symptoms of COVID-19 disease...

I suspect that's the answer to:

 

3 hours ago, Trujillo said:

what is the purpose of showing some certificate of vaccination

ie vaccination certification is based on the reasonable assumption that vaccination reduces transmission significantly, but this effect simply hasn't been measured yet.

[richard_smith237]

17 minutes ago, onebir said:

This seems a reasonable assumption. But this hasn't been established:

I suspect that's the answer to:

 

ie vaccination certification is based on the reasonable assumption that vaccination reduces transmission significantly, but this effect simply hasn't been measured yet.

 

It doesn’t need to be measured - its common sense. 

 

Someone who coughs and sneezes less is going to spread ‘whatever is within their respiratory system' less than someone who sneezes and coughs more often.... 

 

 

 

[Rhacsyn]

Surely the vaccines will help. Help improve a terrible situation for many. At this moment let's not celebrate, of course, but at least be positive and pray and hope that things will get better.

 

The vaccines do have an effect and the stronger that is the better. We all need a break for sure lest many will simply starve.

[Meat Pie 47]

18 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It doesn’t need to be measured - its common sense. 

 

Someone who coughs and sneezes less is going to spread ‘whatever is within their respiratory system' less than someone who sneezes and coughs more often.... 

 

 

 

Don't agree I have hay fever and sneeze all day I also cough many times having been a smoker

for many years

[Golden Triangle]

From what I understand, the vaccines will protect you from the worst symptoms of the virus thereby helping health services around the globe from being inundated, you may well get Ill, but hopefully won't die from it, unlike my brother last Saturday ????????????

 

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, Trujillo said:

Given what the makers of the two well-known vaccines have said about having no idea if vaccines will prevent infections or stop transmissions, what is the purpose of showing some certificate of vaccination when all that achieves, to a certain percentage efficacy, is preventing clinical disease?

where did you get the idea that they have "no idea if the vaccine will prevent infections"

I give up presenting facts ,Below is what the US CDC has to say about the benefits of the covid 19 vaccine. 

If you are really interested read what the CDC has to say in the below link, updated January 5. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Meat Pie 47 said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It doesn’t need to be measured - its common sense. 

 

Someone who coughs and sneezes less is going to spread ‘whatever is within their respiratory system' less than someone who sneezes and coughs more often.... 

 

 

 

Expand  

Don't agree I have hay fever and sneeze all day I also cough many times having been a smoker

for many years

 

Even more reason for you to be vaccinated - your viral load would be reduced and you’d be carrying SARS-CoV-2 for a shorter period of time than if you had not been vaccinated and have symptoms... 

 

Additionally, your comment (your condition) is hardly representative of the average person. Thus suggesting vaccination is not necessary as it doesn’t prevent ‘you’ from sneezing all day is wholly irrelevant, vaccination is an aggregate response for the general benefit of society on a whole. 

 

 

Thus: in your attempt to contradict a single point, you’ve lost sight of a general picture. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[impulse]

The idea of a "vaccination passport" was bounced around long before the results of the vaccine tests were known.

 

There was talk of requiring one as a condition of getting on an airplane, or other long distance transport- trains and buses.  I had visions of private businesses requiring one as a condition of entering their premises,  and employers requiring one as a condition of showing up at the office to work.  But I lean toward wingnut stuff.

 

It will be interesting to see how that morphs now that it appears the vaccine isn't 100% effective, doesn't actually prevent the disease, doesn't so much prevent the spread, and may (or may not) only last a few months.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, CobraSnakeNecktie said:

Hopefully those reading have heard of Agenda 21? 

 

They are telling us the two shots should be administered 21 days apart.

 

A couple of months prior to 'outbreak' was Johns Hopkins Event 201 with Bill Gates Foundation that was corona virus exercise.

 

 

 

Careful... they probably are chasing you !!! ????️‍♀️

[sirineou]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Even more reason for you to be vaccinated - your viral load would be reduced and you’d be carrying SARS-CoV-2 for a shorter period of time than if you had not been vaccinated and have symptoms... 

 

Additionally, your comment (your condition) is hardly representative of the average person. Thus suggesting vaccination is not necessary as it doesn’t prevent ‘you’ from sneezing all day is wholly irrelevant, vaccination is an aggregate response for the general benefit of society on a whole. 

 

 

Thus: in your attempt to contradict a single point, you’ve lost sight of a general picture. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another thing that people fail to consider is that the reduced ability of vaccinated people to transmite, becomes even further reduced as those around them also become vaccinated thus also reducing the availability of easy hosts.

[FarFlungFalang]

5 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

From what I understand, the vaccines will protect you from the worst symptoms of the virus thereby helping health services around the globe from being inundated, you may well get Ill, but hopefully won't die from it, unlike my brother last Saturday ????????????

 

Sorry for your loss,there are now reports of issues being raised in Norway who are investigating 23 deaths in elderly after being vaccinated who are now recommending caution when vaccinating.

[LomSak27]

8 hours ago, Trujillo said:

Given what the makers of the two well-known vaccines have said about having no idea if vaccines will prevent infections or stop transmissions, what is the purpose of showing some certificate of vaccination when all that achieves, to a certain percentage efficacy, is preventing clinical disease?

Isn't Thailand, and other nations, under the misunderstanding that a vaccinated person is "safe" to reenter society, ie, they can't infect others? There has been a sort of folk mantra of, "Once we get the vaccine, we can start to get back to normal." According to the statements below by the very people who know best, this seems diametrically opposed to the facts on the ground. 

 

Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla:

 

"In an interview last month with NBC’s Lester Holt, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla acknowledged he didn’t know if the BNT162b2 vaccine would prevent the spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. “I think this is something that needs to be examined. We are not certain about that right now with what we know,” Bourla said."

 

Moderna’s chief medical officer, Tal Zaks, MD:

 

'In an interview with Axios on Nov. 23, Dr. Zaks noted, “When we start the deployment of [the mRNA-1273] vaccine, we will not have sufficient concrete data to prove that this vaccine reduces transmission.”'

 

Anthony Fauci, MD, director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID):

 

"... the primary endpoint of most of the [vaccines] is to prevent clinical disease, to prevent symptomatic disease. Not necessarily to prevent infection… that’s a secondary endpoint. But the primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected—prevent them from getting sick. And if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill. So that’s what we want to do....If the vaccine also allows you to prevent initial infection, that would be great. But what I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint—to prevent clinically recognizable disease. And that’s what we hope happens."

 

**** What has been measured in the trials on the BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines, as well as other experimental COVID-19 vaccines, is not whether they prevent infection with and transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus but how well they can prevent or minimize symptoms of COVID-19 disease that can be caused by the virus. There is no evidence to suggest the vaccines will have any effect in terms of protecting people from getting the virus and spreading it.

 

-- No-evidence-covid-19-vaccines-will-block-spread-of-coronavirus

 

Questioning how effective the vaccine really is. Bravo! You have successfully moved on from obsessing about how effective masks are, to obsessing about how effective vaccines actually are.

Progress! Who knows what wonders the future holds. As always our hopes and prayers are with you.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and post with false or misleading information reported and removed.   One member is on suspension.   Keep it civil and continuing to post memes will get you suspended. 

 

 

[VocalNeal]

20 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

that the vaccine could confuse your natural immune system and create an over-drive reaction resulting in potential severe illness/death.

 

Guilian-Bare Syndrome?

[Captain Monday]

Health passports in the context of international (air) travel.

• Issues with fake test results have already appeared
• covid-19 lab test types and reports are not standardized around the world even language issues make it difficult for airline check in staff to determine validity.

 

When you present your passport and check in for a flight document/visa entry requirements are currently referenced against an IATA supported application called TIMATIC. This is a partially automated process.

 

In order to accommodate varying and quickly changing health restrictions re

covid-19 testing and vaccination data, among other health information, would be sent by authorized providers and clinics directly to the health passport platforms or servers. In the end state I would imagine the user /passenger could access a QR code though a mobile app to facilitate check in and immigration requirements,

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Captain Monday

[CharlieH]

Reported post and response to it removed.

[VocalNeal]

5 hours ago, impulse said:

The idea of a "vaccination passport" was bounced around long before the results of the vaccine tests were known.

 

Used to be a yellow? book to show vacinations like Cholera/Yellow Fever/Japanese enciphilitis/et al.

Now we simply add Covid?

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Sorry for your loss,there are now reports of issues being raised in Norway who are investigating 23 deaths in elderly after being vaccinated who are now recommending caution when vaccinating.

they were all very old, and very sick.  One also died in another country, but they couldn't determine if the person just died, or died because of the shot.

 

So far, few adverse effects among the 40 million who've been jabbed so far.

[Jeffr2]

5 hours ago, impulse said:

The idea of a "vaccination passport" was bounced around long before the results of the vaccine tests were known.

 

There was talk of requiring one as a condition of getting on an airplane, or other long distance transport- trains and buses.  I had visions of private businesses requiring one as a condition of entering their premises,  and employers requiring one as a condition of showing up at the office to work.  But I lean toward wingnut stuff.

 

It will be interesting to see how that morphs now that it appears the vaccine isn't 100% effective, doesn't actually prevent the disease, doesn't so much prevent the spread, and may (or may not) only last a few months.

There's a proposal now that you'll need a jab to get your visa renewed here.  And of course, need it to enter the country.  Makes sense.

 

A few of the jabs have proven to be 95% effective.  But yes, not 100%.  But 100% effective at keeping you out of the ICU with a hose jammed down your throat.  I'd say that's quite good.

 

It's not been proven whether it prevents the disease, thus, the spread.  It's just not known.  As well as how long it last.  It's a new virus, right?

 

You're points are wrong and help spread potentially misinformation.  It doesn't do anyone any good.

[impulse]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

There's a proposal now that you'll need a jab to get your visa renewed here.  And of course, need it to enter the country.  Makes sense.

 

A few of the jabs have proven to be 95% effective.  But yes, not 100%.  But 100% effective at keeping you out of the ICU with a hose jammed down your throat.  I'd say that's quite good.

 

It's not been proven whether it prevents the disease, thus, the spread.  It's just not known.  As well as how long it last.  It's a new virus, right?

 

You're points are wrong and help spread potentially misinformation.  It doesn't do anyone any good.

 

So, tell me.  Which of my points are wrong?  It's not 100% effective, it doesn't actually prevent the disease, doesn't so much prevent the spread, or that it may only last a few months? 

 

Because all of those are factual.

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

they were all very old, and very sick.  One also died in another country, but they couldn't determine if the person just died, or died because of the shot.

 

So far, few adverse effects among the 40 million who've been jabbed so far.

 

A lot more people will be dying from Strawberry allergies, or tripping over their slippers or falling out of their beds.... 

 

But, the very few out of the billions who have a complications after taking a vaccine (not proven because of) will be a dog whistle for the scare mongering media and anti-vaxxers !

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

So, tell me.  Which of my points are wrong?  It's not 100% effective, it doesn't actually prevent the disease, doesn't so much prevent the spread, or that it may only last a few months? 

 

Because all of those are factual.

None of that has been proven.  And which jab are you referring to?  There are dozens out there with different characteristics.  You're trying to make a broad brush statement.  Doesn't work.

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

A lot more people will be dying from Strawberry allergies, or tripping over their slippers or falling out of their beds.... 

 

But, the very few out of the billions who have a complications after taking a vaccine (not proven because of) will be a dog whistle for the scare mongering media and anti-vaxxers !

One of the scourges of our time.  Anti-vaxxers.  Horrible people that case the deaths of thousands.

[FarFlungFalang]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

they were all very old, and very sick.  One also died in another country, but they couldn't determine if the person just died, or died because of the shot.

 

So far, few adverse effects among the 40 million who've been jabbed so far.

Most of the covid deaths were among the very old and very sick.As stated in the main article about the deaths in Norway even the small side effects of the vaccine can cause major issues in the very old and the very sick.It's still very early days in the vaccination "experiment" and Norways recommendation of caution I think is wise.This also raises the issue of are we willing to sacrifice these very old and the very sick people for the benefit of the rest?The very people we are trying to protect?The same question was raised earlier in the pandemic and one with which we will still have to wrestle.

[FarFlungFalang]

21 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

So far, few adverse effects among the 40 million who've been jabbed so far.

To use a point of argument used previously "tell that to the people who have lost their loved ones".

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

What would be the purpose of a "vaccine passport"?

 

You managed to write 414 words, when you only needed the question in the headline. Congratulations! I am pretty sure it must exist some kind of award for that. ????????

 

I will give you the simple answer: The country you visit can see that you have been vaccinated against Covid-19.