Will Your Next Ride Be Electric?

[BenDeCosta]

Most people think that electric cars are helping the environment and that they are doing something virtuous by driving one because they don't understand where the electricity comes from. 

[DavisH]

41 minutes ago, BenDeCosta said:

Most people think that electric cars are helping the environment and that they are doing something virtuous by driving one because they don't understand where the electricity comes from. 

On balance, electric vehicles will use less fossil fuel derived power than combustion powered cars, or hybrids. 

[richard_smith237]

Just now, DavisH said:

On balance, electric vehicles will use less fossil fuel derived power than combustion powered cars, or hybrids. 

 

‘On balance’.... how much energy is required to produce the raw materials for the batteries for the elective vehicles....

 

I think when we start throwing terms such as ‘on balance’ then we should really be looking a ‘the balance’... i.e. the cost of energy throughout a vehicles lifespan from securing the raw-materials requires to decommissioning of the vehicle and batteries used. 

 

 

I like the idea of electric vehicles, they are wholly necessary in areas of high population / vehicle density and they keep pollution out of the cities. 

 

But, I do not believe electric vehicles are as green as we would believe.

 

I’m struggling to work out why electric cars have taken the spotlight while the hydrogen fuel cell may be a better option than batteries. 

 

 

[The Hammer2021]

8 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Not that it matters what the NSA or MI6 are doing none of it is in my name. 

Until they steal your identity!

[Pattaya Spotter]

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I’m struggling to work out why electric cars have taken the spotlight while the hydrogen fuel cell may be a better option than batteries. 

Two words: The Hindenberg. Every since that tragedy, hydrogen has had a reputation of being dangerous. There is also the issue of an entirely new production, transportation, and point of service infrastructure for using it in transportation. At least with electric, the power generating stations already exist, the electric towers and cables are already in place everywhere (just have to build and connect charging points), and the technology is familiar to everyone already.

[richard_smith237]

Another point: 

 

A 100kWh battery will give a potential range of 250 miles. Production of that battery take around 20 tonnes of CO2.

 

The average emissions intensity for new passenger vehicles in European countries was 118.5 g/km in 2017.

In Australia it was 171.5 g/km in 2017

 

i.e. the average car in Europe has to travel 169,000 km before it becomes ‘carbon equivalent’ to a car with a 100kw battery IF the charging source uses renewable energy. 

 

In Australia the average car has to travel 116,000 km before it becomes ‘carbon carbon equivalent’ to a car with a 100kw battery, again IF the charging source uses renewable energy. 

 

Thus: with passenger cars in 2017 a petrol car is less ‘carbon’ expensive than a 100 kw battery power car at somewhere between at 116,000 and 168,000 km. 

 

 

 

 

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 hour ago, BenDeCosta said:

Most people think that electric cars are helping the environment and that they are doing something virtuous by driving one because they don't understand where the electricity comes from. 

It is true that depending on the composition of the battery chemistry and the source of the electricity for a given power grid, on a full life-cycle analysis, EVs might be only marginally more environmentally friendly than ICE vehicles (and worse than hybrid electrics). However, there are other reasons than purely environmental (greenhouse gasses) ones to choose EVs...no particulate emissions, cheaper to operate/maintain, driving characteristics (fun factor).

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

22 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

I’m struggling to work out why electric cars have taken the spotlight while the hydrogen fuel cell may be a better option than batteries. 

Two words: The Hindenberg. Every since that tragedy, hydrogen has had a reputation of being dangerous. There is also the issue of an entirely new production, transportation, and point of service infrastructure for using it in transportation. At least with electric, the power generating stations already exist, the electric towers and cables are already in place everywhere (just have to build and connect charging points), and the technology is familiar to everyone already.

 

The ‘hindenburg’ is an old excuse - fuel cells are safe, but you are right. It’s all about public perception. 

 

It's the same reason there are not a lot more Nuclear Power plants around the world fuelling electric vehicles. Cleaner energy, but Chernobyl and later Fukushima kind of put the PR kibosh on that.

 

I do wonder how the current ‘electrical grids’ will handle the huge increase in night time energy demand as all these EV’s are charged. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Susco]

6 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

EVs might be only marginally more environmentally friendly than ICE vehicles

EV's are more polluting than ICE vehicles, that is not a secret any more.

 

 

 

[Susco]

11 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

EVs...no particulate emissions, cheaper to operate/maintain, driving characteristics

 

Cheaper to maintain, you're aving a laugh?

 

https://www.zimlon.com/b/the-most-expensive-parts-in-a-tesla-model-s-cm537/

[shdmn]

1 minute ago, Susco said:

 

Cheaper to maintain, you're aving a laugh?

 

https://www.zimlon.com/b/the-most-expensive-parts-in-a-tesla-model-s-cm537/

We are talking real car manufacturers.  Tesla's are poorly made junk imo.  With few service centers anywhere it takes more money than brains to buy one.  It's mostly the look at me crowd who always want to be a part of the latest novelty.

Edited June 5, 2021 by shdmn

[northsouthdevide]

I think the missus will have one before I do.

She does a lot of local driving, and will never have to worry about kWhours.

That's my biggest concern.

The range.

Im on the road quite a lot, so it just wouldn't work for me, even though a solar powered home is in the pipeline, with plans to make the carport a solar charge station at a later date.

[madhav]

I’ll definitely be getting one. I see so many advantages in my situation it’s a no-brainer.

 

First is maintenance costs, the lack of moving parts and fluids etc is great. I spend part of the year overseas and the fossil cars, especially engine parts, they deteriorate like crazy when I’m away. So many issues when I come back. What is required on most EV’s? Rotate the tyres? 
 

Having the ability to charge from home using solar power is great. Is basically free fuel. 99% of the time I don’t travel far from home so it’s no issue at all. 
 

Instant torque and good power is very useful for overtaking, and where I live this is of vital importance.

 

Being able to turn on the aircon before you get into your car via an app. No more ‘burning your ass on the seats’ or sweating like crazy until the car cools down.
 

About the environmental contributions (or lack of), it’s very difficult to get non-bias objective data. We are talking about oil companies here, and the science and data they release is much in the same league as ‘tobacco science’.
 

From my understanding the energy and rare earth minerals required to refine, transport, store etc petrol is huge. It’s not talked about but it’s an issue. Of course someone will comment and say the opposite and likely produce a study to back it up. I can’t be bothered debating it. 
 

Thailand could easily transition to renewable energy, the tech exists right now to do it. Wind, solar, hydro, tidal, etc etc. There are many examples around the world to prove this, but for whatever reason they choose not to, and we are where we are now because of that. 
 

At the end of the day many city based transport and logistics companies are shifting to EV not because of environmental concerns, they look at the numbers, see how much money they’ll save, and the decision is made right then and there. So even if this is the primary driving force I see no issue.

[Surelynot]

Just now, madhav said:

Having the ability to charge from home......

That is huge......not many in a city......where the greatest benefits lie........... can charge because they live in a condo.

[madhav]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

That is huge......not many in a city......where the greatest benefits lie........... can charge because they live in a condo.

It could be done. If there space for a car park, there is provision for a charge point. But yeah the word here is ‘could’. 

[Surelynot]

Just now, madhav said:

It could be done. If there space for a car park, there is provision for a charge point. But yeah the word here is ‘could’. 

Massive investment.....maybe not too bad for up and coming new builds.....but to retrofit could be a nightmare.

[Pattaya Spotter]

39 minutes ago, madhav said:

What is required on most EV’s? Rotate the tyres?

And top-up the windshield wiper fluid.

[Crossy]

6 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

And top-up the windshield wiper fluid.

 

And the blinker-fluid, don't forget the blinker fluid!

[Pedrogaz]

In a word no, I will not be buying electric until I am forced to.

 

Electric vehicles are no more environmentally friendly than ICEs. Indeed strong arguments can be made for ICEs being better.

 

Assembling the lithium ion batteries is extremely energy intensive as the mining for rare earths is very inefficient and low yielding. Second, the electric vehicle is inherently less efficient. For an ICE you drill for oil, refine it, put it in your car and drive. Ie there are few energy requiring steps. For electric vehicles, you have to mine the coal, gas or other fossil fuel, you then burn it in an energy inefficient manner (a power plant), you then transmit the power with massive losses all over the country, you then have to build charging infrastructure for the EVs, you then have further large power losses as you charge and discharge the battery, and take into account the additional power that EVs use because of their extra weight. PLUS, the nail in the coffin is battery life.....it will not be what is claimed (like internet speeds it will be up to 5 mega bytes, meaning 2 megabytes per second, and then you have to dump the toxic battery every 100,000 miles. A gigantic con.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, Pedrogaz said:

In a word no, I will not be buying electric until I am forced to.

 

Electric vehicles are no more environmentally friendly than ICEs. Indeed strong arguments can be made for ICEs being better.

 

Assembling the lithium ion batteries is extremely energy intensive as the mining for rare earths is very inefficient and low yielding. Second, the electric vehicle is inherently less efficient. For an ICE you drill for oil, refine it, put it in your car and drive. Ie there are few energy requiring steps. For electric vehicles, you have to mine the coal, gas or other fossil fuel, you then burn it in an energy inefficient manner (a power plant), you then transmit the power with massive losses all over the country, you then have to build charging infrastructure for the EVs, you then have further large power losses as you charge and discharge the battery, and take into account the additional power that EVs use because of their extra weight. PLUS, the nail in the coffin is battery life.....it will not be what is claimed (like internet speeds it will be up to 5 mega bytes, meaning 2 megabytes per second, and then you have to dump the toxic battery every 100,000 miles. A gigantic con.

Wow....that's me out.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Hybrid, maybe, but I am not ready for a fully electrical vehicle, yet.

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Hybrid, maybe, but I am not ready for a fully electrical vehicle, yet.

Can't see the point of a Hybrid that uses an ICE to charge the battery........it is just another source of energy loss to the surroundings.

[Pattaya Spotter]

8 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Can't see the point of a Hybrid that uses an ICE to charge the battery........it is just another source of energy loss to the surroundings.

I would tend to agree...basically you have two completely different propulsion systems stuffed into one car. Wouldn't it be twice as complicated and expensive to maintain? However, hybrid cars are very efficient...sometimes even more so than pure EV platforms. The problem in Thailand is most hybrids, like the Honda Accord and the Toyo Camry are marketed as premium models and cost upward of 1.7M baht. The MG EV is under 1M.

[Pattaya Spotter]

20 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

For an ICE you drill for oil, refine it, put it in your car and drive. Ie there are few energy requiring steps.

Every one of those steps requires energy and there is a lot of energy intensive transportation of the ???? in all those steps. These are just some of the misperceptions in your post.

[The Hammer2021]

A decent  public transport  system  seems a better idea to me combined  with replacement  of Tuk Tuks and Motorcycles as EVs. Next the big public diesel  buses to be replaced. All cheaper more effective  options than individuals owned vehicles which need to be phased out

[sawadee1947]

Riding? Of course. On an electric horse. ????

[pedro01]

Not for me - I think EV is a step in the wrong direction and hydrogen is the winning technology.

[Pattaya Spotter]

11 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

Not for me - I think EV is a step in the wrong direction and hydrogen is the winning technology.

Even Toyota is moving over to electric and investing heavily in battery technology...solid state????

[rwill]

No.  Electric cars are not ready for prime time yet.

 

It would be better and greener to get the batteries out of the vehicles.  Plus make the vehicles cheaper.  Put the power source in the road.

 

[timkeen08]

6 minutes ago, rwill said:

No.  Electric cars are not ready for prime time yet.

 

It would be better and greener to get the batteries out of the vehicles.  Plus make the vehicles cheaper.  Put the power source in the road.

 

It worked well on my racetracks and train set when I was a kid.  I like the idea but it would have to be made idiot proof, especially here.