UK State Pensions - yet another sick joke?

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, bradiston said:

I'm still at a loss to find the references you quote. I'd gladly read up on it if I could find it.

According to Appendix 1 of this document the state pension is subject to overpayment recovery under social security legislation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide

[fredscats]

59 minutes ago, sandyf said:

According to Appendix 1 of this document the state pension is subject to overpayment recovery under social security legislation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide

If you've been paid too much benefit this is called an overpayment. It's treated as benefit fraud if you have:

• o

The administrative penalty that can be applied is 50 per cent of the overpayment. For example, if you were overpaid by £900 you would have to pay a penalty of £450. However, there is a minimum penalty that can be applied of £350 and the maximum penalty is £2,000.

If it is believed someone has attempted to commit benefit fraud, a fixed penalty of £350 can be considered as an alternative to prosecution.

 

Mostly UC,but yes  winter fuel maybe a bit risky   but hey ho  just 3 years back pay  600 received 350 pyback   sounds OK

 

I do believe after 3 years the" offence" falls off the radar...any info?

Edited July 20, 2021 by fredscats

[dabhand]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

According to Appendix 1 of this document the state pension is subject to overpayment recovery under social security legislation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide

Very interesting point of reference, particularly related to state pension overpayment recovery, as you note in your post. Thanks for that.

 

Rather blows away the oft repeated false information from certain poster(s) in their various guises.

Edited July 20, 2021 by dabhand

[fredscats]

1 minute ago, dabhand said:

Very interesting point of reference, particularly related to state pension overpayment recovery, as you note in your post. Thanks for that.

 

Rather blows away the oft repeated false information from certain poster(s) in their various guises.

?   but how many have actually been done?    NONE, disqualifying benefit is mentioned as a sanction,but never used,once mistaken admission made as to being in Thailand ,..oft repeated  in various threads frozen at that point,no punishment,no pack drill,nothing

 

Ill keep it at that

 

[fredscats]

6 minutes ago, fredscats said:

?   but how many have actually been done?    NONE, disqualifying benefit is mentioned as a sanction,but never used,once mistaken admission made as to being in Thailand ,..oft repeated  in various threads frozen at that point,no punishment,no pack drill,nothing

 

Ill keep it at that      Nature-and-Extent-of-Pensions-Fraud-Report.pdf   Nobody ever ,but ever been" done"    Says so

 

 

[Pumpuynarak]

13 hours ago, fredscats said:

?   but how many have actually been done?    NONE, disqualifying benefit is mentioned as a sanction,but never used,once mistaken admission made as to being in Thailand ,..oft repeated  in various threads frozen at that point,no punishment,no pack drill,nothing

 

Ill keep it at that

 

???? I have

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, fredscats said:

If you've been paid too much benefit this is called an overpayment. It's treated as benefit fraud if you have:

• o

The administrative penalty that can be applied is 50 per cent of the overpayment. For example, if you were overpaid by £900 you would have to pay a penalty of £450. However, there is a minimum penalty that can be applied of £350 and the maximum penalty is £2,000.

If it is believed someone has attempted to commit benefit fraud, a fixed penalty of £350 can be considered as an alternative to prosecution.

 

Mostly UC,but yes  winter fuel maybe a bit risky   but hey ho  just 3 years back pay  600 received 350 pyback   sounds OK

 

I do believe after 3 years the" offence" falls off the radar...any info?

If you receive more pension than entitled, that would be overpayment and subject to recovery.

Any decision by the DWP to pursue fraud would be something different and discretionary.

[dabhand]

A look at the latest report of 'Fraud and error in the benefit system' makes for interesting reading in relation to State Pensions.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-financial-year-2020-to-2021-estimates/fraud-and-error-in-the-benefit-system-for-financial-year-ending-2021#state-pension

 

Much has been made by a certain poster(s) (I get confused as to how many posters express their opinion on this matter - izod10 and Fredscats come to mind. Have they ever been seen in the same room together?)..

Anyway, the report on State Pensions (Item 6) state 'Official error on state pension is measured every year, but fraud and claimant error were last measured in FYE 2006.' However a full review is to be carried out in 2022 at which point fraud will be measured.

So, no review of state pension fraud has been carried out for fifteen years!! No wonder that the University of Portsmouth review, as noted by our esteemed fellow poster(s) came up with a zero outcome on the level of fraud. Yet no mention in their 'weighty' document of that fact. So much for academic excellence!!

We await the 2022 government report with bated breath!!

 

 

 

 

[ubonjoe]

I have removed several bickering, baiting  and etc posts. Time to end it or this topic will be closed and formal warning given.

[siftasam]

I  know I'm stupid when it comes to money BUT I don't understand this:

 

it's said that the UK cannot afford to unfreeze our expat pensions because it cannot afford to do so - BUT in todays 'Yahoo Money' I read:

 

'Senior citizens and disabled workers in the USA could be looking at the biggest boost to their Social Security benefits in decades next year.

Beneficiaries could see their benefits increase by 5.8% in January 2022, according to a Bank of America analyst note, which would be the biggest boost since 1983. That’s also quite a bit more than January 2021’s increase of 1.3% to the cost-of-living adjustment. 

That hike would translate to more than an additional $80 per month in benefits — a fourfold increase than the extra $20 beneficiaries saw in the monthly benefits this year, per Bank of America."

 

 And yet in June 2021, the public debt of the United States was around 28.53 trillion U.S. dollars, over two trillion more than a year earlier, when it was around 26.48 trillion U.S. dollars.

 

Is my brain (such as it is) missing something here?

[KannikaP]

On 7/18/2021 at 5:37 PM, Jumbo1968 said:

The data on your passport which is contained in the metallic strip or chip is to check the details on your passport match them.

 

 

But is the record of ins & outs of the UK embedded in that chip? I would think not.

[Ned Ludd]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:59 AM, bradiston said:

People have taken it all the way to the EU court of Human rights, via all the UK courts, and got absolutely nowhere. The fallacious argument is basically, the government can't afford to do it for the 400,000+ pensioners living abroad with frozen pensions, stating it would cost £500m. Which begs the question, what would happen if all 400,000 moved back to the UK? The government would have to cough up, and, of course, would find a way to so do. The money's there, it's just pensioners aren't a priority, just a bunch of old codgers the likes of Handoncock and co can kick around. But, how much are the savings to the NHS in not having to take care if 400,000 old age pensioners should the need arise? Far in excess of £500m I'll wager.

What the majority of people miss is that when pensioners live overseas, their pensions are bye and large being spent in their country of residence. That means UK currency moving out and being spent elsewhere. A loss to the economy.

 

The state pension does need overhauling but the greatest travesty was when Gordon Brown stole all of that money from the Private Pension funds. What was universally recognised as the best pension scheme in the world became the sickest. Socialism at it's best, take private money and spend it without any thought to accountability.

[bradiston]

2 hours ago, Ned Ludd said:

What the majority of people miss is that when pensioners live overseas, their pensions are bye and large being spent in their country of residence. That means UK currency moving out and being spent elsewhere. A loss to the economy.

 

 

The state pension does need overhauling but the greatest travesty was when Gordon Brown stole all of that money from the Private Pension funds. What was universally recognised as the best pension scheme in the world became the sickest. Socialism at it's best, take private money and spend it without any thought to accountability.

But tourists spend billions of £ abroad. Try telling them they can do it, sure, but they'll be penalised for not spending it in Woolies.

[Ned Ludd]

14 hours ago, bradiston said:

But tourists spend billions of £ abroad. Try telling them they can do it, sure, but they'll be penalised for not spending it in Woolies.

As do other countries tourists that come to the UK. Tourists only spend a small percentage of their income overseas. We are talking about pensioners not tourists. Non resident pensioners spend almost their entire income outside of the UK

[bradiston]

5 hours ago, Ned Ludd said:

As do other countries tourists that come to the UK. Tourists only spend a small percentage of their income overseas. We are talking about pensioners not tourists. Non resident pensioners spend almost their entire income outside of the UK

What, £150 per week, after tax? A tourist might spend twice that in a day. Anyway, this argument has been done to death now. £26 billion the UK government lost on furlough scams. And over £2 billion in duff PPE. That's domestic losses from the scumbags back home, paid for by tax payers. We're not the bunch of criminals costing the country a fortune.

[nausea]

1 hour ago, bradiston said:

What, £150 per week, after tax?

Not that it affects your point much but, just for information,the new State Pension is way below the personal tax allowance, so no tax on that.

[bradiston]

3 hours ago, nausea said:

Not that it affects your point much but, just for information,the new State Pension is way below the personal tax allowance, so no tax on that.

Yes, of course, but there are pensioners who have other sources of income which push them above the threshold. But you're right, on its own it's tax free. But there has been talk of removing tax allowances for overseas residents. Seems we are a really soft target.

[nausea]

6 hours ago, bradiston said:

But there has been talk of removing tax allowances

That's worrying. Yeah, I already get taxed on my second pension.

[Ned Ludd]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:19 PM, bradiston said:

What, £150 per week, after tax? A tourist might spend twice that in a day. Anyway, this argument has been done to death now. £26 billion the UK government lost on furlough scams. And over £2 billion in duff PPE. That's domestic losses from the scumbags back home, paid for by tax payers. We're not the bunch of criminals costing the country a fortune.

You are obviously wasted on this forum. With your knowledge you should apply for the job of Chancellor of the Exchequer.

 

Non resident pensioners cost the UK over £10 billion per year. I leave you to work out how that figure is arrived at. If anything, it's on the low side.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Ned Ludd

[bradiston]

8 hours ago, Ned Ludd said:

You are obviously wasted on this forum. With your knowledge you should apply for the job of Chancellor of the Exchequer.

 

Non resident pensioners cost the UK over £10 billion per year. I leave you to work out how that figure is arrived at. If anything, it's on the low side.

Err let me see now... Working on it... Nope, I guess you just made it up.

[thonglorjimmy]

10 hours ago, Ned Ludd said:

Non resident pensioners cost the UK over £10 billion per year. I leave you to work out how that figure is arrived at. If anything, it's on the low side.

Maybe you could provide the source of that figure, or at least give us a clue as to how you arrived at it.

 

I suspect I'm not alone in paying more in income tax than I receive in my State Pension, and I'm not entitled to free access to the NHS, either here or when the visiting the UK, so I suspect I'm actually saving the Exchequer money by living here.

 

If we were all to return to the UK, then those in receipt of a State Pension would immediatly have it uprated to the current rate, immediatly have free access to the NHS, the list goes on, but I'm convinced that it would cost the Exchequer more.

 

HMG relies on the fact that most people have no intention of returning to the UK, and they're probably right, but the removal of the PA could well be the tipping point, though I don't think it's being planned.

 

  

[OJAS]

On 7/30/2021 at 2:51 AM, bradiston said:

But there has been talk of removing tax allowances for overseas residents.

This was certainly the subject of an HMG consultation exercise in 2014, which, thankfully, resulted in this proposal being booted into the long grass:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance

 

But have you heard more recently of the possibility of it being revived?

 

[Ned Ludd]

7 hours ago, bradiston said:

Err let me see now... Working on it... Nope, I guess you just made it up.

Simple, just research government figures, economic statistics, tax receipts, average cost to the NHS per individual in the UK, average payments to overseas pensioners over the last 10 years and these few items alone will give you a good idea of what non reident pensioners cost the UK.

 

Sorry if you have to spend some time looking this up but I did so it's not too much to ask unless you are just another bone idle, lazy keyboard warrior.

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

This was certainly the subject of an HMG consultation exercise in 2014, which, thankfully, resulted in this proposal being booted into the long grass:-

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance/restricting-non-residents-entitlement-to-the-uk-personal-allowance

 

But have you heard more recently of the possibility of it being revived?

 

No, I haven't. Sorry for sounding alarm bells.

[bradiston]

20 minutes ago, Ned Ludd said:

Simple, just research government figures, economic statistics, tax receipts, average cost to the NHS per individual in the UK, average payments to overseas pensioners over the last 10 years and these few items alone will give you a good idea of what non reident pensioners cost the UK.

 

Sorry if you have to spend some time looking this up but I did so it's not too much to ask unless you are just another bone idle, lazy keyboard warrior.

Yes, I think I'll settle for that. You're talking through your hat. Just reeling off anonymous data sets such as "government figures", "economic statistics", "tax receipts" is utterly meaningless. I'm going to dismiss your statement as complete bunkum.

[Ned Ludd]

2 hours ago, bradiston said:

Yes, I think I'll settle for that. You're talking through your hat. Just reeling off anonymous data sets such as "government figures", "economic statistics", "tax receipts" is utterly meaningless. I'm going to dismiss your statement as complete bunkum.

In other words you are too lazy to do any research and base your opinions on bar talk.

 

Stop being lazy and research these topics, you may learn something.

[siftasam]

Why are some of you bothering with figures for the UK that are meaningless?

"There are lies, damned lies and there are statistics" as Disraeli said.

Borrow money! 'Rob Peter to pay Paul'. We all do it!

Of course the money 'is not there'. It's never there. "Balancing a budget' in any meaningful national sense is ridiculous. Our last budget surplus in the UK was 20 years ago - who cares?

 

To quote figures like these above is 'old fashioned false economics'. 

I've lived through the creation of  what should have been a wonderful and long lasting Welfare State and NHS after  WW2 when "we had no money". I've seen "You've never had it so good" under Macmillan and then Thatcherism. We managed to pay off our enormous war debts (21 billion pounds in 2006). Excuse me, did Germany, Italy, Japan etc. pay off their 'war debts' (!) to the UK?

 

In 1933 the USA was still in the throes of probably the worst US depression in history. There was 'no money'.  So,  the great incoming President FD Roosevelt spent and spent and spent - 'money he had not got'. He 'primed the pump'. He created the most powerful nation on earth, also the richest, with the strongest Federal government it had ever had. He created an America that did an immense amount to defeat the Axis powers.

 

So, wise up some of you guys! There is ALWAYS money for war. Roosevelt rightly declared to the US people that he was "waging war on poverty".

 

We should not pay even one penny to exit the EU. (My God, Trump was correct!) The UK enabled the EU to be formed by defeating the Axis in WW2. The whole of Europe owes Britain an 'enormous moral. political and economic debt''.

 

The problems remain: 1. inept (and sometimes criminal?) government leadership, including Chancellors who don't even know what the banks are up to (or did you, Mr. Brown??) 2. enormous wastage in probably all fields of UK life 3. corruption and laziness among the 'great and the good' - this extends down too often to management  4. a stupid clinging to odd bits of empire - sell them on Ebay!  5. selling out too often to the military  6. idiot policies like very expensive space research (think Thailand!) 6. a completely 'lost' sense of values  7. a mediocre education system. You can add more if you wish.

 

The FIRST duty of a government is to DEFEND the country. It has always been so in  history. BUT WHO against? Stupid me, I actually bought a book by Harold Wilson just before he became PM. He said 'Why have a nuclear deterrent? Who are we going to use it against?" (He kept it, of course!)

The SECOND duty of a government is to protect the old, the sick, the unemployed who cannot find work, the very young, and the vulnerable.

The THIRD duty is Education - I mean real Education, not idiot Blair's 'education, education. education'.

 

Nothing else matters. NOT space rockets, NOT poxy Afghanistan, NOT the poxy Middle East and NOT the economy.

The economy can run itself. Don't tell anybody, but it always has! And it can bear heavy taxation.

 

Yes, Boris, you can unfreeze our pensions! And increase them. If you want a 'Great' Britain, then don't be so damned small minded!

 

I never thought I would get to be very old and still hear of people sleeping under the bridges in London and old age pensioners dying of the cold because they cannot buy adequate food and pay electricity and gas bills (ridiculously inflated!)

 

Wake up, Britain! Shame on you! So much of the 'thinking' is stupid and outdated. If you don't believe me, tell me the name of ONE major political figure who has imagination, fire in the belly, originality, good sense and integrity. Someone who can create, not fiddle while Rome burns.

 

Talking about burning, I wait for you to shoot me down! (If you can be bothered, of course)

 

 

 

 

[theoldgit]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/pensions/article-9803095/Is-UK-state-pension-REALLY-worst-rich-rival-countries.html

[fredscats]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:10 AM, sandyf said:

According to Appendix 1 of this document the state pension is subject to overpayment recovery under social security legislation.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-overpayment-recovery-staff-guide/benefit-overpayment-recovery-guide

You want to read further than Appendix 1..nothing specifically related to SP.  For related to SP read up NI Direct,easiest DWP region to inform  wonder why

 

SP cannot be touched no stoppage/reduction   This thread been running since 2012 nobody has ever been pulled   'cept one and if anybody wishes to know that hoax PM me

 

Jealousy runs amok Ive got it/you ain't sorta sums it up

 

  The unfainess with SP/UC is at present PC amounts to 3 quid a week more than SP for starters,Im about there with mine 175 quid and contracted out for 30 years   not bad eh!

dabhand

• Platinum Member
•  
• Advanced Members
• 2824
• 2683 posts
• Gender:Male

•  

Posted July 20 (edited)

On 7/20/2021 at 10:10 AM, sandyf said:

Very interesting point of reference, particularly related to state pension overpayment recovery, as you note in your post. Thanks for that.

 

Rather blows away the oft repeated false information from certain poster(s) in their various guises.

Edited July 20 by dabhand

 

Not often right,but wrong again!

[hotandsticky]

24 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I am not saying anything one way or another, but if you want to claim that the text of a government document is wrong then that is entirely up to you. End of story.

 

 

It is not the end of story....only you have chosen it to be so, as you have you have chosen to select one part of one document.

 

There are no penalties from DWP for overpayments od state pension and they do not automatically (in fact VERY rarely) reclaim overpaid amounts.

 

Fact..............................end of story.