Pandemic of the unvaccinated????

[Jeffr2]

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-07-20/editorial-get-tough-on-covid-vaccine-evaders

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

Nonsense? Not necessarily. 

The vaccines do not "strengthen" your immune system. If you have a vaccine that doesn’t block infection completely, then the virus will mutate to evade the immune response within that person. The jabs are not designed to block infection. They allow infection to occur and at best lessen the symptoms of that infection. 

Here's an interesting read when you get some time. 

 Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ 
 

As I pointed out, viruses  will be naturally selected for being able to evade the defenses of a vaccinated person. Of course, they will also be naturally selected to evade the immune systems of those who have been previously infected. Keep in mind that this article was written in 2018. And adenovirus vector vaccines and mRNA vaccines weren't yet in use. They have changed how quickly and effectively vaccines can be altered to address mutations.

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

As you well know, 99%+ of those being hospitalized or dying from Covid, didn't get the jab (with the leading jabs). Nuff said.

 

Vaccines have been mandatory for decades. No reason to not get jabbed now other than medical reasons. None. We won't get through this until a majority are done.

 

Unless they are willing to self isolate from the rest of us and pay all their own medical bills...get the jab.

You still haven't addressed long term effects and the risk to the unborn.  Because you can't.  We don't know.  And won't for years.  That's the risk of fast tracking a vaccine on an emergency basis. 

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

You still haven't addressed long term effects and the risk to the unborn.  Because you can't.  We don't know.  And won't for years.  That's the risk of fast tracking a vaccine on an emergency basis. 

 

For that matter we don't know the long term risks of covid and how being infected with it might affect the unborn. We do know that covid symptoms can persist for a long time and are detectible in a far higher percentage of people than symptoms of those who have been vaccinated.

[cdemundo]

8 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

The article details the history of the anti-Marek’s disease vaccine for chickens which was first introduced in 1970.  We’re on the third version of this vaccine within a decade. It has stopped working. The reason? The virus has mutated to evade the vaccine. 

And just for your information it has been peer reviewed. 

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 

PLOS Biology tested the theory that vaccines are driving the mutation of the herpesvirus causing Marek’s disease in chickens. To do that, they vaccinated 100 chickens and kept 100 unvaccinated. All of the birds were then infected with varying strains of the virus. Some strains were more virulent and dangerous than others. 

Over the course of the birds’ lives, the unvaccinated ones shed more of the least virulent strains into the environment, while the vaccinated ones shed more of the most virulent strains. 

“The findings suggest that the Marek’s vaccine encourages more dangerous viruses to proliferate. This increased virulence might then give the viruses the means to overcome birds’ vaccine-primed immune responses and sicken vaccinated flocks.”

This could very much be the case in the next 10-15 years with the Covid vaccines. 
 

"The findings suggest that the Marek’s vaccine encourages more dangerous viruses to proliferate."

"All of the birds were then infected with varying strains of the virus. Some strains were more virulent and dangerous than others. "

 

In both cases the mutations were already in existence.

 

Selection pressure will eliminate viruses that are less fit, and the most resistant variants will become dominant.

But that is not what you are claiming.

You are stating that vaccines cause mutations to occur.

Simply not true.

 

Nowhere does it or will it say that vaccines cause mutations.

Vaccines can cause evolutionary pressure on the population and cause the mutated variants to proliferate.

 

You can read, but your reading comprehension is lacking.

 

 

 

 

 

[cdemundo]

3 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Can we stick with covid and the current global pandemic?  Please.

Actually he is responding to my criticism of his claim that vaccines cause mutations.

I think he is on topic.

Although, he doesn't understand the difference between mutation and selection.

[cdemundo]

9 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

Are saying there is no such thing as evolutionary pressure to mutate? ????

Let's go get back to this in 6-12 months.  By then you should be on your 3rd or 4th jab.  

 

You don't understand the process.

Mutatiions occur at random, they do not have a purpose or direction, they occur based on the replication process not being perfect.

Selection pressure acts upon the variations (ie. the variants or mutants and the original population) that exist in the population.

 

Vaccines don't cause mutations, but they may cause differential survival of existing variants, you don't seem to understand the difference.

 

This has been previously discussed and with respect to vaccines causing the delta variant.

 

1) https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-did-covid-vaccines-cause-the-delta-variant/a-58242263

 

"Have vaccines caused the delta variant?

It is impossible for the delta variant to have been caused by vaccines.

This virus mutation was detected for the first time in October 2020 in the Indian state of Maharashtra. The first person in India to be vaccinated, however, did not receive that vaccination until January 2021, around three months after the delta variant developed. This refutes the claims mentioned at the beginning.

This fact check explains how mutations come about and why vaccines cannot be held responsible for them."

 

 

2) https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-variants/fact-check-no-evidence-vaccination-efforts-are-causing-new-covid-19-variants-idUSL2N2NL1M2

Fact Check-No evidence vaccination efforts are causing new COVID-19 variants (7 MIN READ)

 

3) https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

No, COVID-19 Vaccines Do Not Cause New Coronavirus Variants

 

4) https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/08/07/did-covid-19-vaccines-cause-coronavirus-delta-variants-no-evidence-behind-such-claims/?sh=3c25b174281d

Did Covid-19 Vaccines Cause Coronavirus Delta Variants? Here’s What The Timing Says

 

[frantick]

Lots of facts there. No evidence. What does that even mean? It means they're not 100% sure, or they would state "vaccines do not cause variants". And they would state how they know.

 

Scientists for decades have been unable to produce a successful vaccine against any coronavirus, and now we're supposed to believe they have. Ok. Maybe they can, they just haven't because the yearly flu vaccine, which I've NEVER had, is a lucrative business for their employers/funders.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, frantick said:

Lots of facts there. No evidence. What does that even mean? It means they're not 100% sure, or they would state "vaccines do not cause variants". And they would state how they know.

 

Scientists for decades have been unable to produce a successful vaccine against any coronavirus, and now we're supposed to believe they have. Ok. Maybe they can, they just haven't because the yearly flu vaccine, which I've NEVER had, is a lucrative business for their employers/funders.

Because there's no good reason to believe that they do cause and plenty of reason to believe that they don't. No one has proposed a plausible means for how vaccines would accomplish this. Ya know, evolution, genetics and all that science stuff doesn't show support for that..

What don't you understand about hospitals reporting that over 99 percent of covid fatalities come from unvaccinated patients? Is it your contention that they are lying? If not, how else would you account for this? They're just guessing that the patients have covid? They're not testing for it?

Edited August 13, 2021 by placeholder

[HeijoshinCool]

On 8/9/2021 at 2:26 AM, ArcticFox said:

Your logic: All Christians are Trump supporters? All 'bible-thumpers' are 'anti-vaxx?'  That's seriously flawed logic. 

Personally I find what you said to be offensive.  I'm curious.  When did this forum become a springboard to attack and mock Christian beliefs?  Right here and now I guess. 
 

.

 

Don't be offended, my friend. That gives him power over you by implying his immature opinion carries weight. It does not.

[HeijoshinCool]

5 hours ago, impulse said:

You still haven't addressed long term effects and the risk to the unborn.  Because you can't.  We don't know.  And won't for years.  That's the risk of fast tracking a vaccine on an emergency basis. 

 

.

What cracks me up (laughing at how stupid people can be) and despairs me at the same time is the plethora of big-pharma ads on TV, especially during the dinner hour news (at times, 50% of the ads) that is interspersed with numerous ads from attorneys announcing class-action suits against drug companies whose drugs did harm or killed, that were years earlier approved by the FDA. 

 

????

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, HeijoshinCool said:

.

What cracks me up (laughing at how stupid people can be) and despairs me at the same time is the plethora of big-pharma ads on TV, especially during the dinner hour news (at times, 50% of the ads) that is interspersed with numerous ads from attorneys announcing class-action suits against drug companies whose drugs did harm or killed, that were years earlier approved by the FDA. 

 

????

Like how stupid people can be to distrust vaccines because they're being manufactured by  big pharma?? You prefer them brewed by mom-and-pop businesses? Maybe brewed up in their basements? It was the CDC and equivalent govt. agencies that called on these manufacturers to make these vaccines because there was an emergency situation.. Could you have provided the CDC with alternate sources? There's still time to step up and do so. 

[cdemundo]

2 hours ago, frantick said:

Lots of facts there. No evidence. What does that even mean? It means they're not 100% sure, or they would state "vaccines do not cause variants". And they would state how they know.

 

Scientists for decades have been unable to produce a successful vaccine against any coronavirus, and now we're supposed to believe they have. Ok. Maybe they can, they just haven't because the yearly flu vaccine, which I've NEVER had, is a lucrative business for their employers/funders.

Hard to have a sensible discussion with you since you don't read the responses people make to your posts.

As far as the COVID vaccines causing Delta variant, I referenced 4 articles that showed that that was impossible based mostly on the very simple observation that Delta existed before the vaccines were in use.

 

I know you don't read the responses because you didn't know that your post about PhDs being most hesistant to vaccinate was supported by an online survey, which I indicated in my response to you.

 

"Scientists for decades have been unable to produce a successful vaccine against any coronavirus," again, not true.

The research into vaccines for MERS and SARS were stopped because the epidemics ended by track and trace and isolate methods. The disease was no longer in existence so pursuing the vaccine was stopped. 

The part you missed was that the research that was done on other Corona viruses jump started the vaccines for COVID19.

 

The idea that vaccines cause variants is a misunderstanding of how mutation and selection relate to each other.

What is true is that after there has been mutation and one variant (like Delta) has a reproductive advantage, selection pressure will cause it to become dominant by out reproducing the other variants.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by cdemundo
toned down my response

[lucky2008]

I'll just leave this here for now. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-93-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-7-july-2021/sage-93-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-7-july-2021

 

[zhounan]

In fact, many testimonies and doctors say exactly the opposite,.but of course they don't even get them near the TV shows and journalists.

[watthong]

18 hours ago, impulse said:

You still haven't addressed long term effects and the risk to the unborn.  Because you can't.  We don't know.  And won't for years.  That's the risk of fast tracking a vaccine on an emergency basis. 

 

This is like I don't want the firemen to put out the fire because the smoke might have long term effects ( that "We don't know.  And won't for years...") In the meantime, never mind that the house is burning down and I'm trapped in it. This is anti-vaxxers logic, kept repeating ad nauseam and hoping that some fools would buy it.

Tough luck.

[frantick]

Well, to summarize my stance and my bow out from this thread, I will restate some facts.

 

There has never been a cure developed to prevent coronaviruses. I have never taken a flu shot, nor been seriously ill with any seasonal illness. I believe, should I contract and survive covid, that my immune system will be better off than should I be vaccinated. (Studies on COVID-19 immunity are still in their infant stages)

 

Given that, if I need the poke to travel to see my kids, I'll do it, as I'm not afraid of death whether it be from Corona, the jab, or continued suppression of individual freedoms. Hopefully, this jab will come after the jab is fully FDA approved and my heirs are allowed to sue on my behalf. Not that I think it's unsafe, but because I think it's not time tested.

 

And to stick with the title of this thread, soon the majority will be vaccinated and this pandemic will become that of the vaccinated. Although, I'm sure it won't be reported that way.

 

[watthong]

1 hour ago, i84teen said:

 I may run into a covid vaccine mandated situation due to my professional endeavors or maybe some other coerce/ passive mandates, but until then, life goes on and I "change nothing except my underwear." I use alcohol; sometimes, the kind u drink and industrial grade covid cleansers.

And you don't mean bleach, do you?

Science is out there for anyone with reading and critical thinking ability to learn all they want to know about covid and/or any other subject matter. And then there quacks who act like news broker and pseudo medical professionals with agendas who come on the scene to calm down mass hysteria and spoon feed folks who are too lazy to educate themselves. On this forum it has become an annoying game a la whackamole to flush out the covid trolls and dust away their nonsensical (black is white) data/logic. Above is another glorious example.
 

[oldcpu]

On 8/10/2021 at 12:14 PM, Ryan754326 said:

The point is, that if you’re vaccinated, you are protected as well as possible for the time being, but the variants will continue to pop up, and most experts agree that covid isn’t going away, and that we’ll have to learn to live with it. The way it looks to me, is that the people who can’t deal with their own fears want to control other peoples behavior in order to soothe their own anxieties. If we let the most fearful in society dictate the policies, then I think we’ll be wearing masks and avoiding social contact forever, regardless of what percentage of the Earth’s population we manage to vaccinate.  

I see your point, but I am not convinced you understand fully the point of the vaccinated.

 

Anyone who gets sufficiently sick from this virus, such that they need to be hospitalized, means one less bed in a hospital for people who don't have the virus - and this could cause non-COVID related deaths because those people could not get the hospital attention they needed.

 

Further anyone who gets sufficiently sick from this virus, such that they can't go to work, means those remaining in the office may need to work more (to make up for having less employees) and ultimately this could cause the company to lose money ... indeed cause many companies to lose money ... potentially damaging the economy ...

 

Further, the vaccinated while not immune to the virus, feel they are slightly less likely to catch the virus ('slightly' supported I believe by statistics) and know they could still catch the virus (albeit less likely than the unvaccinated) and still could get very sick (albeit less likely than the unvaccinated) and at this point we start getting into the fearful points you note.  The vaccinated believe their odds are better if the unvaccinated were to change their mind to get vaccinated.

 

To be clear - my own view is if someone does not want to be vaccinated, then let them remain unvaccinated.  BUT I also tend to side with policies where (if the business owners want, or if the majority present want) then unvaccinated may not be allowed in some locations/transports, because they are not unvaccinated, and a vaccinated majority does not want them there.  Note the word "may" - as obviously (to me) there MUST be exceptions.    I do think thou, if the majority end up vaccinated, and if we let a minority of unvaccinated dictate the polices, then we are going down the wrong road for a democracy.

- -

Edit: Note I include with the 'vaccinated' those who were originally un-vaccinated and who caught the virus and  successfull recovered. I treat their recovery just as good if not better than a vaccination.  I do thou see it as a very risky way to attain similar status.

Edited August 14, 2021 by oldcpu

[placeholder]

6 hours ago, lucky2008 said:

Oh ok, I guess the doctor is full of <deleted> then.  

 

You go ahead and keep believing whatever makes you feel safe.  Good luck! 

Again, we have reached a point where those who have had the jab constantly look for evidence to support their decision while those who refuse the jab do exactly the same.  We all need to live with our decisions and not let our insecurities over that choice dominate discussions. 

This is typical of the way denialists think. What the doctor said was taken from a snippet of an interview. No context provided. It's obviously nuts to claim that the vaccinated actually are more liable to be in serious condition than the unvaccinated which would be the case in Israel were his alleged claim true. This  contradicts not only what the Israeli Health authorities are claiming but also what is the case in every country that reports on covid hospitalizations. For this to be true, there would have to be a massive conspiracy on the part of hospitals and public health authorities worldwide that consistently report the unvaccinated outnumber the vaccinated in hospitalizations. How desperate do you have to be to be so gullible?

[248900_1469958220]

Nice to see lively debate. Cheers everyone for putting in your 2 cents worth. No need for bickering, the Covid story does seem to change often, and I want to keep up with what people think about it all. 

[impulse]

5 hours ago, watthong said:

This is like I don't want the firemen to put out the fire because the smoke might have long term effects ( that "We don't know.  And won't for years...") In the meantime, never mind that the house is burning down and I'm trapped in it. This is anti-vaxxers logic, kept repeating ad nauseam and hoping that some fools would buy it.

Tough luck.

Having been in several fire departments, I can tell you that water often does a lot more damage than the fire we were putting out. 

 

Not to get too technical, but the objective of putting water on a house fire is to have it turn to steam and deprive the fire of oxygen while removing heat through the latent heat of vaporization.  If anyone's in the house when you do that, you kill them and steam them like a lobster.  And not necessarily in that order.  So you don't want someone pouring on the water if you're trapped in a house fire.  And that's in addition to the water damage to the furnishings and the structure itself.

 

I'm not anti-vax.  I got mine.  I'm pro choice.  If someone's contemplating having kids, their choice may be much different than mine because their risk profile is much different.  They're younger and less likely for the Covid to hurt them, and we have no clue what it's going to do to their unborn kids.

It's complicated.  Protecting people, their freedoms and the rights of the unborn.  Not unlike putting out a house fire without steaming and killing any occupants.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by impulse

[MrJ2U]

Just get vaccinated and stop the anti vaxer rhetorical Cr**!

[cdemundo]

23 hours ago, frantick said:

Lots of facts there. No evidence. What does that even mean? It means they're not 100% sure, or they would state "vaccines do not cause variants". And they would state how they know.

 

Scientists for decades have been unable to produce a successful vaccine against any coronavirus, and now we're supposed to believe they have. Ok. Maybe they can, they just haven't because the yearly flu vaccine, which I've NEVER had, is a lucrative business for their employers/funders.

"Lots of facts there. No evidence. What does that even mean? It means they're not 100% sure, or they would state "vaccines do not cause variants". And they would state how they know."

 

You mean like this? 

 

3) https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

No, COVID-19 Vaccines Do Not Cause New Coronavirus Variants

Edited August 14, 2021 by cdemundo
added bold and underline for emphasis

[frantick]

20 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

"Lots of facts there. No evidence. What does that even mean? It means they're not 100% sure, or they would state "vaccines do not cause variants". And they would state how they know."

 

You mean like this? 

 

3) https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-vaccines-do-not-cause-new-sars-cov-2-variants

No, COVID-19 Vaccines Do Not Cause New Coronavirus Variants

Ok, one scientists says they do and one scientists states they don't. But he also stated “Mutations and variants occur randomly and independently of vaccination or any other selection process. In fact, they may precede selection by years or millennia,”

 

Which anyone would interpret to say neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated are the actual CAUSE of the variants. So all of the claims of unvaccinated causing the variants is also bogus. If you're infected, either way, you could be the creation host of the variant.

 

oh, sorry, I forgot this is the thread I bowed out of.

Edited August 14, 2021 by frantick

[cdemundo]

1 minute ago, frantick said:

Ok, one scientists says they do and one scientists states they don't. But he also stated “Mutations and variants occur randomly and independently of vaccination or any other selection process. In fact, they may precede selection by years or millennia,”

 

Which anyone would interpret to say neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated are the actual CAUSE of the variants. So all of the claims of unvaccinated causing the variants is also bogus. If you're infected, either way, you could be the creation host of the variant.

Wow.

I've been waiting.

You finally said something that was true.

"Which anyone would interpret to say neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated are the actual CAUSE of the variants"

 

The cause of the variants is the phenomenon of errors in replication.

[frantick]

6 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

Wow.

I've been waiting.

You finally said something that was true.

"Which anyone would interpret to say neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated are the actual CAUSE of the variants"

 

The cause of the variants is the phenomenon of errors in replication.

Now that we're seeing so many breakthrough cases, this makes those prior fear mongering headlines, "unvaccinated are variant factories", and "unvaccinated people are fueling coronavirus variants", equally true of those breakthrough cases. But they won't say that now, will they.

 

[Scott]

A post from an unapproved source has been removed. 

 

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, frantick said:

Now that we're seeing so many breakthrough cases, this makes those prior fear mongering headlines, "unvaccinated are variant factories", and "unvaccinated people are fueling coronavirus variants", equally true of those breakthrough cases. But they won't say that now, will they.

 

Not really, even if unvaccinated people and breakthrough cases transmitted equal amounts of various, you're disregarding the fact that it's less likely for a vaccinated person to be infected in the first place. And when vaccinated people are infected their symptoms tend to be milder and not last as long. So less virus produced.

[frantick]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Not really, even if unvaccinated people and breakthrough cases transmitted equal amounts of various, you're disregarding the fact that it's less likely for a vaccinated person to be infected in the first place. And when vaccinated people are infected their symptoms tend to be milder and not last as long. So less virus produced.

Sure. What is it now, 42% efficacy for Pfizer and 75% for moderna? Meaning 25 to 58% of vaccinated people could be variant factories.

 

Do you feel safe knowing 58% of your vaccinated friends could give you covid? At what percentage do the vaxers stop demanding everyone join their club? What if it's 98% breakthrough possible, would you still demand injections for all? Why?

 

Isn't the truth that, if there ARE issues with the vaccines down the road, you want everyone to be in the same boat as you?