2 minutes ago, sungod said:

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-south-africa-doctors-see-skyrocketing-cases-in-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-but-symptoms-mild-in-omicron-hotspot-12484607

 

But symptoms seem to be mild so far thankfully.

The jury is still out on that

 

Head of an ICU unit has said young people, in their 20s to just over their late 30s, are coming in with moderate to severe disease, some needing intensive care.

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

The jury is still out on that

 

Head of an ICU unit has said young people, in their 20s to just over their late 30s, are coming in with moderate to severe disease, some needing intensive care.

From that article. 

 

"It is still too early to make an assumption because with other strains we saw… more severe illness [occurs] in the second or third week.

59 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

 

 

This new variant cropped up, probably, in an individual who wasn't vaccinated.  

Conspiracy theory 101, using the word probably. 

1 minute ago, EVENKEEL said:

Conspiracy theory 101, using the word probably. 

See my other post.  It's from a scientist.  Hardly a conspiracy theory.

Now you see the true face of the EUSSR

That's was Germans like total control and if they cant reach it they put their own people in jail who refusing to get vaccinated. finding a victim blaming them they good in it. look to the past. sorry but you guys are complete out of control.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/02/are-countries-in-europe-are-moving-towards-mandatory-vaccination

Austria

From February 1, vaccination will be mandatory in Austria, the first compulsory vaccination requirement in Europe.

 

Greece

Greece will start fining people over the age of 60 who do not get vaccinated.

They will be fined €100 per month if they don't receive the jab by 15 January.

 

Italy

Italy was one of the first countries to mandate vaccination for health professionals in April in an effort to protect patients.

"Vaccination is an essential requirement for the exercise of the profession," Italy's health ministry said.

 

France

From September, France has required health and care professionals, firefighters and transport workers to be vaccinated.

People with jobs who are in contact with the public must have a health pass in order to go to work proving that they are vaccinated against or recovered from COVID-19 or that they have had a negative test result.

 

United Kingdom

COVID-19 vaccines will be mandatory for health and social care workers by April 1 in England, UK health secretary Sajid Javid said in November as COVID-19 cases soared.

 

Hungary

Vaccination is required in Hungary for health workers, state school teachers and people working in state institutions.

1 hour ago, JaydenL said:

You're right. As for _now_. The only thing I see terrible is the violation of your right to choose regarding YOUR own health. If people get vaccinated, shouldn't they have an immunity against those who spread the virus? What's about locking them down then? Kids understand this thought sequence better than adults for sure.

The right to choose on matters of health is not an absolute right, the use of illegal drugs being one example, enforced hospitalisation of  mentally ill or those infected with contagious disease are others. 

 

 

1 hour ago, blackprince said:

True, but as ever I'll try to shift the debate from a simple binary.

 

I'd personally rather spend time with a non-vaxxer who uses masks and distancing, than a vaxxer who parties without masks because they think the vaxx has turned them into superman/woman.

But you just made an argument of a simple binary. 

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

Not true!  If you are vaxxed, you can still get infected, end up in the hospital with a tube jammed down your throat or die.  Though your odds are 10X++ better of this not happening than those who are unvaccinated.

 

This new variant cropped up, probably, in an individual who wasn't vaccinated.  The more who are jabbed, the less likely we'll get new variants.  Understand?  And the sooner life will return to "normal".

I will not argue regarding the fact that Omicron variant currently exclusively affects the vaccinated ones and there are no cases reported for the non-vaccinated. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong with sources. However, I only wished to reply to this post, because it's quite naive thinking that life will return to "normal"? I thought the Great Reset and Davos WEF was official? This is the new normal now, and there will be no return back, and possibly when you understand that, you will also experience some sort of empathy to the ones who were already seeing some sort of issues with what's happening with mandates.

1 hour ago, JaydenL said:

I believe this is a flawed logic. Citizenship determines that, and the right to vote and elect one's government depends on their citizenship. Not the vaccination status. As a result, governments serve their voters who elected them, and not those who are vaccinated and/or not.

Citizens elect Government and Government, which having been elected is empowered to pass laws to among other things address the first duty of Government, the safety of the nation and citizens. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

See my other post.  It's from a scientist.  Hardly a conspiracy theory.

Actually, if you read what you posted, the article does not mention 'probably from an unvaccinated person' It seems you made that part up.

 

The scientist says (as someone else has already pointed out) ................

 

How did the new variant develop?

One theory is that the new variant emerged with all its mutations in one big burst.

Professor Francois Balloux, Chair in Computational Biology Systems at University College London, has been quoted as suggesting it's possible that the virus mutated during a chronic infection of a person whose immune system was already weakened by an untreated HIV/Aids infection.

But that is speculation at this stage.

1 hour ago, JaydenL said:

You're right. As for _now_. The only thing I see terrible is the violation of your right to choose regarding YOUR own health. If people get vaccinated, shouldn't they have an immunity against those who spread the virus? What's about locking them down then? Kids understand this thought sequence better than adults for sure.

There is more then your right . There is also the right of the society . Plenty of vaccines have been obligated in the past ( and even now ) . Polio , Yellow Fever ( still needed for some areas) , smallpox ( i still got the scar since the vaccination was halted in +/-1975 , before was obligated ) , ...

People who are vaccinated spread less , are less likely to end up in hospital and in worst case death . The society is the hospital , since if you aren't vaccinated , chances are higher you end up there and stay longer , which makes the unvaccinated a burden to society . This is not your health , even if you are sick by yourself , but the strain you put on hospital personel , and the possible restrictions for everybody else , makes it a society case .

They not gonna put the vaccination in your arm while holding you , but you won't be welcome anywhere and you will get fined .

1 hour ago, JaydenL said:

If people get vaccinated, shouldn't they have an immunity against those who spread the virus?

There is no immunity by vaccination . Vaccination protects against becoming seriously ill after an infection , that's all .

 

The new omicron variant infects vaccinated people just like it does with unvaccinated .

There is no reliable data yet if the many mutations in the virus lead to a resistance against the effects of vaccinations or medical treatments .

Anyway , with the spectacular rise in cases in Germany (Europe) ,  it leaves the impression that the vaccination is not really effective . It is not only the unvaccinated who become sick . A lot of ' breakthrough ' cases .

2 minutes ago, JaydenL said:

I will not argue regarding the fact that Omicron variant currently exclusively affects the vaccinated ones and there are no cases reported for the non-vaccinated. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong with sources. However, I only wished to reply to this post, because it's quite naive thinking that life will return to "normal"? I thought the Great Reset and Davos WEF was official? This is the new normal now, and there will be no return back, and possibly when you understand that, you will also experience some sort of empathy to the ones who were already seeing some sort of issues with what's happening with mandates.

Not sure what you're saying about Omicron and vaxxed vs. unvaxxed.  As you know, if un-vaxxed, the odds of you getting sick or dying are 10x++ greater than if you are vaxxed, right?

 

As for mandates, they shouldn't be needed.  Sadly, seems they are.

 

As for normal, notice I put that in quotes.  Like 9/11, life will forever be changed due to this pandemic.

Just now, nobodysfriend said:

There is no immunity by vaccination . Vaccination protects against becoming seriously ill after an infection , that's all .

 

The new omicron variant infects vaccinated people just like it does with unvaccinated .

There is no reliable data yet if the many mutations in the virus lead to a resistance against the effects of vaccinations or medical treatments .

Anyway , with the spectacular rise in cases in Germany (Europe) ,  it leaves the impression that the vaccination is not really effective . It is not only the unvaccinated who become sick . A lot of ' breakthrough ' cases .

It is not only the unvaccinated , there is no 100% cure . But present data says that vaccinated have 7 times less chance to end up in hospital .

2 minutes ago, sungod said:

Actually, if you read what you posted, the article does not mention 'probably from an unvaccinated person' It seems you made that part up.

 

The scientist says (as someone else has already pointed out) ................

 

How did the new variant develop?

One theory is that the new variant emerged with all its mutations in one big burst.

Professor Francois Balloux, Chair in Computational Biology Systems at University College London, has been quoted as suggesting it's possible that the virus mutated during a chronic infection of a person whose immune system was already weakened by an untreated HIV/Aids infection.

But that is speculation at this stage.

If the person had HIV/Aids, with a weakened immune system, odds are they weren't vaxxed.  But yes, we'll probably never know case "0".

1 hour ago, JaydenL said:

The only thing I see terrible is the violation of your right to choose regarding YOUR own health.

You do not have the right to put the healthcare systems or others at risk, just as you do not

have the right to assault or slander others.

If people are not prepared to act responsibly on a voluntary basis then then governments have the right to use legislation to protect services and the general public.

You are free to exercise your human rights argument and end up in isolation. 

8 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

There is no immunity by vaccination . Vaccination protects against becoming seriously ill after an infection , that's all .

 

The new omicron variant infects vaccinated people just like it does with unvaccinated .

There is no reliable data yet if the many mutations in the virus lead to a resistance against the effects of vaccinations or medical treatments .

Anyway , with the spectacular rise in cases in Germany (Europe) ,  it leaves the impression that the vaccination is not really effective . It is not only the unvaccinated who become sick . A lot of ' breakthrough ' cases .

False. Vaccines GREATLY reduce infections. Break through infections are RARE.

 

This same lie keeps being repeated on this forum without there ever having been a single link pointing to evidence and despite there being widespread evidence to the contrary.

8 minutes ago, JaydenL said:

I will not argue regarding the fact that Omicron variant currently exclusively affects the vaccinated ones and there are no cases reported for the non-vaccinated. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong with sources. However, I only wished to reply to this post, because it's quite naive thinking that life will return to "normal"? I thought the Great Reset and Davos WEF was official? This is the new normal now, and there will be no return back, and possibly when you understand that, you will also experience some sort of empathy to the ones who were already seeing some sort of issues with what's happening with mandates.

You didn't read the linked article above:

 

“Young people, in their 20s to just over their late 30s, are coming in with moderate to severe disease, some needing intensive care. About 65% are not vaccinated and most of the rest are only half-vaccinated,” said Mathivha. “I’m worried that as the numbers go up, the public health care facilities will become overwhelmed.”

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Not sure what you're saying about Omicron and vaxxed vs. unvaxxed.  As you know, if un-vaxxed, the odds of you getting sick or dying are 10x++ greater than if you are vaxxed, right?

 

As for mandates, they shouldn't be needed.  Sadly, seems they are.

 

As for normal, notice I put that in quotes.  Like 9/11, life will forever be changed due to this pandemic.

Dying, maybe, we don't know yet. Getting sick, looks like false, otherwise countries with over 80 % vaccination rate wouldn't experience such huge surges in cases. Regarding the actual statistics of deaths, every vaccine needs 5 to 10 years to be tested, so we are just a part of a huge experiment, to quote the scientist who worked with mRNA. That's all. In other words, you are quoting odds of what a vaccine is supposed to be, not what that vaccine is, which we will only know within the timeframe stated.

1 hour ago, JaydenL said:

You're right. As for _now_. The only thing I see terrible is the violation of your right to choose regarding YOUR own health. If people get vaccinated, shouldn't they have an immunity against those who spread the virus? What's about locking them down then? Kids understand this thought sequence better than adults for sure.

I think those kids you refer to must have a learning disability. Kids who are not afflicted with that particular deficit will understand, the immunity is not absolute, but a matter of degree. And that a very high percentage of vaccination is optimal to reduce the R number.

8 minutes ago, JaydenL said:

I will not argue regarding the fact that Omicron variant currently exclusively affects the vaccinated ones and there are no cases reported for the non-vaccinated. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong with sources. However, I only wished to reply to this post, because it's quite naive thinking that life will return to "normal"? I thought the Great Reset and Davos WEF was official? This is the new normal now, and there will be no return back, and possibly when you understand that, you will also experience some sort of empathy to the ones who were already seeing some sort of issues with what's happening with mandates.

The thread has nothing to do with the 'Great Reset', 'Davos', or the 'WEF' though the part conspiracy theories play in anti-vaccine thinking is once again demonstrated. 

 

1 hour ago, sungod said:

For those of us who are vaccinated, we want people to have the freedom of choice.

ANother case of "I'm vaccinated but..."

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

If the person had HIV/Aids, with a weakened immune system, odds are they weren't vaxxed.  But yes, we'll probably never know case "0".

Then best to stick to what we know and not just mention 'probably unvaccinated' as that can spread false information.

 

In may countries the odds are that HIV patients are vaxxed as its recommended they are in priority groups due to their condition.

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

ANother case of "I'm vaccinated but..."

as opposed to what?

 

I'm unvaccinated but?

Just now, JaydenL said:

Dying, maybe, we don't know yet. Getting sick, looks like false, otherwise countries with over 80 % vaccination rate wouldn't experience such huge surges in cases. Regarding the actual statistics of deaths, every vaccine needs 5 to 10 years to be tested, so we are just a part of a huge experiment, to quote the scientist who worked with mRNA. That's all. In other words, you are quoting odds of what a vaccine is supposed to be, not what that vaccine is, which we will only know within the timeframe stated.

What?  It's proven if you are vaccinated your odds of dying or getting sick are reduced by 10x.  Where do you get your news?

 

This vaccine has probably been administered to more people than any other in history.  No need for more testing.  They work.  And hardly an experiment.

 

In Germany, the unvaccinated are the ones clogging up the hospitals.  Not the ones who were jabbed.

 

READ THE LAST SENTENCE:

 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211118-last-resort-german-hospitals-sound-alarm-in-pandemic-surge

Last resort: German hospitals sound alarm in pandemic surge

 

At the intensive care unit of Munich Clinic Schwabing, senior doctor Niklas Schneider voiced frustration over vaccine resistance in some quarters.

 

"I find it really astonishing that vaccination is not accepted by the masses even though we have the possibility to get it. It is not completely understandable to me that so many people are allowing themselves to be misled by some horror stories about vaccines," he said.

 

Like the hospital in Freising, the Munich clinic is at full capacity.

 

"The sick people who come to us, who are in mortal danger, we have to treat them, they need help. It doesn't matter if they were previously anti-Corona, anti-vaccine or double-vaccinated, although we don't have any of the latter in the ward."

1 minute ago, sungod said:

Then best to stick to what we know and not just mention 'probably unvaccinated' as that can spread false information.

 

In may countries the odds are that HIV patients are vaxxed as its recommended they are in priority groups due to their condition.

That's not the case in SA where only 6% are vaccinated and there are known to be large numbers of untreated HIV infections. Probably would be a fair summation.

Just now, sungod said:

as opposed to what?

 

I'm unvaccinated but?

It's utterly irrelevant to the issue of enforced vaccinations whether you are vaccinated or not. Your vaccination status affects not at all the validity of your arguments. And, of course, such assertions about one's vaccination status are impossible to verify.

Posts trying to drag the Holocaust into the topic have been removed. Keep that up and you will be suspended