ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Skallywag]

Just a comment. .  54 Billion USD spent worldwide to battle Covid in one year.  

World governments need to spend like this replacing ICE with EV every year.  Climate change is the long term death, governments only focus on short term as elected officials only are in for a short term....  So short sighted, unfortunately.

 

Yes driving habits will have to change.  As I have mentioned in other threads on several forums, governments need to classify fossil fuels as unsafe - harmful.  Driving ICE is a privilege and not right, and has to be phased out sooner than later.  Yes power plants in Russia and China will be the last to follow ... everyone else should be on board

Governments need to stop letting Big Auto and Big oil corporations run things as they have done for the last 50 years. 

Peace Love and EV's 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Skallywag

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Skallywag said:

Just a comment. .  54 Billion USD spent worldwide to battle Covid in one year.  

If world governments got together and put this money into replacing ICE with EV every year.  Climate change is the long term death, governments only focus on short term as elected officials only are in for a short term....  So short sighted, unfortunately.

 

Yes driving habits will have to change.  As I have mentioned in other threads on several forums, governments need to classify fossil fuels as unsafe - harmful.  Driving ICE is a privilege and not right, and has to be phased out sooner than later.  Yes power plants in Russia and China will be the last to follow ... everyone else should be on board

Governments need to stop letting Big Auto and Big oil corporations run things as they have done for the last 50 years. 

Peace Love and EV's 

Yes, while at, throw billions toward solar, wind & hydro production of electric.  Nationalize big oil, and put their profits toward their extinction.

[Yellowtail]

Subsidies and mandates prove how great they are! 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

Subsidies and mandates prove how great they are! 

Currently in the UK and EU vehicle manufacturers have to either buy CO2 emissions credits from other vehicle manufacturers that have a surplus of CO2 emissions or be subject to large fines if they fail to sell enough electric vehicles

Ford to buy CO2 credits from Volvo in EU

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/ford-to-buy-co2-credits-from-volvo-in-eu-byd-expects-2020-eps-to-triple-yoy-61024349

 

Jaguar Land Rover to remain in Tesla deal on EU emissions targets

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/jaguar-land-rover-remain-tesla-deal-eu-emissions-targets#:~:text=Under EU rules%2C car firms,per vehicle per g%2Fkm.

 

Europe: Volkswagen Group Missed 2020 CO2 Fleet Target

Just around 0.5 g/km was missing, but it's enough to see a fine of more than €100 million.

https://insideevs.com/news/475232/europe-volkswagen-group-missed-2020-co2-target/

Edited January 26, 2023 by vinny41
add

[vinny41]

Some Chinese companies are even selling EVs below cost, as long as the revenue from selling carbon credits can make up for the shortfall.

https://www.protocol.com/china/dual-credit-policy

[Yellowtail]

8 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Currently in the UK and EU vehicle manufacturers have to either buy CO2 emissions credits from other vehicle manufacturers that have a surplus of CO2 emissions or be subject to large fines if they fail to sell enough electric vehicles

Ford to buy CO2 credits from Volvo in EU

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/ford-to-buy-co2-credits-from-volvo-in-eu-byd-expects-2020-eps-to-triple-yoy-61024349

 

Jaguar Land Rover to remain in Tesla deal on EU emissions targets

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/jaguar-land-rover-remain-tesla-deal-eu-emissions-targets#:~:text=Under EU rules%2C car firms,per vehicle per g%2Fkm.

 

Europe: Volkswagen Group Missed 2020 CO2 Fleet Target

Just around 0.5 g/km was missing, but it's enough to see a fine of more than €100 million.

https://insideevs.com/news/475232/europe-volkswagen-group-missed-2020-co2-target/

Exactly. It is because EVs are so great that vehicle manufacturers have to be compelled by governments to build them. And because citizens are not smart enough to know what they should buy; it is up to the government make them do the right thing. 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Exactly. It is because EVs are so great that vehicle manufacturers have to be compelled by governments to build them. And because citizens are not smart enough to know what they should buy; it is up to the government make them do the right thing. 

Nonsense

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Nonsense

Another well thought out response.

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Exactly. It is because EVs are so great that vehicle manufacturers have to be compelled by governments to build them. And because citizens are not smart enough to know what they should buy; it is up to the government make them do the right thing. 

Rubbish, vehicle manufacturers have a long way to go they need to produce smaller batteries that have the same range as the current models, more charging infrastructure as to be available, a solution has to be found for people that live in condos and both lighweight and heavyweight commercial vehicles need to be available and affordable

All EV's need to be affordable at the moment in the UK cheapest EV is the MG4 at £26,000 

Cheapest cars on sale in the UK Here are 10 ranging from £12,500-£15,300

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Rubbish, vehicle manufacturers have a long way to go they need to produce smaller batteries that have the same range as the current models, more charging infrastructure as to be available, a solution has to be found for people that live in condos and both lighweight and heavyweight commercial vehicles need to be available and affordable

All EV's need to be affordable at the moment in the UK cheapest EV is the MG4 at £26,000 

Cheapest cars on sale in the UK Here are 10 ranging from £12,500-£15,300

How is what you're saying different from what I'm saying? 

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

How is what you're saying different from what I'm saying? 

aplogises I must have mis-read your post

[placeholder]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:39 PM, Yellowtail said:

Subsidies and mandates prove how great they are! 

If, as you believe, subsidies are crucial to fueling demand, then, as subsidies decline, so should demand. In China subsidies went from 35% in 2020, to 25% in 2021, to 15% in 2022. It will be 5% in 2023. Yet sales of EV's in China increased by 114% in 2022.

In addition what your analysis doesn't capture is the cost of externalities. The IMF estimates that subsidies to fossil fuel industries cost about 6% of world GDP. Most of that cost is indirect subsidies due to medical costs incurred from air pollution. Particularly in the big cities, air pollution from ICE vehicles is a major threat to health. So while the governments may be paying out subsidies, both they and private citizens should also be realizing savings from the reduced deleterious effect of fossil fuels.

[Yellowtail]

9 hours ago, placeholder said:

If, as you believe, subsidies are crucial to fueling demand, then, as subsidies decline, so should demand. In China subsidies went from 35% in 2020, to 25% in 2021, to 15% in 2022. It will be 5% in 2023. Yet sales of EV's in China increased by 114% in 2022.

In addition what your analysis doesn't capture is the cost of externalities. The IMF estimates that subsidies to fossil fuel industries cost about 6% of world GDP. Most of that cost is indirect subsidies due to medical costs incurred from air pollution. Particularly in the big cities, air pollution from ICE vehicles is a major threat to health. So while the governments may be paying out subsidies, both they and private citizens should also be realizing savings from the reduced deleterious effect of fossil fuels.

The IMF, that's hilarious. More Koolaid anyone? 

 

Subsidies for EVs typically include direct payments to the purchasers. 

 

Subsidies for the fossil fuel industry typically include what governments pay for the fuel they buy and the deductions they get from their payroll. 

 

In any event, why the mandates? 

[placeholder]

On 1/28/2023 at 8:01 AM, Yellowtail said:

The IMF, that's hilarious. More Koolaid anyone? 

 

Subsidies for EVs typically include direct payments to the purchasers. 

 

Subsidies for the fossil fuel industry typically include what governments pay for the fuel they buy and the deductions they get from their payroll. 

 

In any event, why the mandates? 

Comments like yours about the IMF are what I call examples of the Law of the Preservation of Ignorance. There is a ton of evidence about the deleterious effect on health of ICE vehicles exhaust. One has to be willfully ignorant not to know that. Congratulations on the triumph of your will.

 

And what is the relevance of who receives the subsidies? The fact is as subsidies sharply declined in China  purchases massively increased.

 

And I'm not sure what your point is about government payment for fuel or payroll deductions. Is it your contention that they constitute most of fossil fuel subsidies?

 

Why the mandates? I've already touched on that. It's a little thing called externalities. The same reason that governments regulate pollution. The industries that cause harm should be the ones to pay for the harm caused.

Edited January 29, 2023 by placeholder

[transam]

26 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Comments like yours about the IMF are what I call examples of the Law of the Preservation of Ignorance. There is a ton of evidence about the deleterious effect on health of ICE vehicles exhaust. One has to be willfully ignorant not to know that. Congratulations on the triumph of your will.

 

And what is the relevance of who receives the subsidies? The fact is as subsidies sharply declined in China  purchases massively increased.

 

And I'm not sure what your point is about government payment for fuel or payroll deductions. Is it your contention that they constitute most of fossil fuel subsidies?

 

Why the mandates? I've already touched on that. It's a little thing called externalities. The same reason that governments regulate pollution. The industries that cause harm should be the ones to pay for the harm caused.

The 'ignorant/ignorance' card today.....

[placeholder]

Just now, transam said:

The 'ignorant/ignorance' card today.....

Entirely appropriate when applied to comments like this:

"The IMF, that's hilarious. More Koolaid anyone?" 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Entirely appropriate when applied to comments like this:

"The IMF, that's hilarious. More Koolaid anyone?" 

Referring to a member as 'ignorant or ignorance' is an insult, if any of used those words at you, the report button would be hot.

 

We know you know it all, but please give it a rest ...................

[placeholder]

43 minutes ago, transam said:

Referring to a member as 'ignorant or ignorance' is an insult, if any of used those words at you, the report button would be hot.

 

We know you know it all, but please give it a rest ...................

I did not refer to a member as being "ignorant". And exactly how does one refer to a member as being "ignorance"? "Ignorance" is an abstract noun.. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yellowtail is an actual flesh and blood person.

Edited January 29, 2023 by placeholder

[transam]

19 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I did not refer to a member as being "ignorant". And exactly how does one refer to a member as being "ignorance"? "Ignorance" is an abstract noun.. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that yellowtail is an actual flesh and blood person.

 We all know what 'ignorance' is, it was taken from your post...????

 

 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

 We all know what 'ignorance' is, it was taken from your post...????

 

 

The question isn't about what ignorance is; it's about what ignorance isn't. And it can't be a person.

[transam]

Just now, placeholder said:

The question isn't about what ignorance is; it's about what ignorance isn't. And it can't be a person.

Ignorant is, no deflections now, as it is way off-topic..........

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Comments like yours about the IMF are what I call examples of the Law of the Preservation of Ignorance. There is a ton of evidence about the deleterious effect on health of ICE vehicles exhaust. One has to be willfully ignorant not to know that. Congratulations on the triumph of your will.

Never said the effects of exhaust were not deleterious. I know it's difficult but try to follow along and please don't lie about what I say or don't say. 

 

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

And what is the relevance of who receives the subsidies? The fact is as subsidies sharply declined in China  purchases massively increased.

But not in a vacuum. If you mandate all vehicles/motorcycles in a particular area be EV, sales increase whether you cut subsidies or not. 

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

And I'm not sure what your point is about government payment for fuel or payroll deductions. Is it your contention that they constitute most of fossil fuel subsidies?

Yes, although they also count the "damage" the World suffers by the burning of fossil fuels as the biggest portion of the "subsidies"'. The fossil fuel subsidies are just another big lie, much like the 97% lie. 

 

6 hours ago, placeholder said:

Why the mandates? I've already touched on that. It's a little thing called externalities. The same reason that governments regulate pollution. The industries that cause harm should be the ones to pay for the harm caused.

What industries are causing harm? Governments buy coal or oil or natural gas and burn it to generate electricity, and then they sell the electricity to do any number of things (including charging EVs) but it's the Evil fossil fuel industry that's causing the damage.

 

You guys crack me up. 

[placeholder]

36 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Never said the effects of exhaust were not deleterious. I know it's difficult but try to follow along and please don't lie about what I say or don't say. 

 

But not in a vacuum. If you mandate all vehicles/motorcycles in a particular area be EV, sales increase whether you cut subsidies or not. 

Yes, although they also count the "damage" the World suffers by the burning of fossil fuels as the biggest portion of the "subsidies"'. The fossil fuel subsidies are just another big lie, much like the 97% lie. 

 

What industries are causing harm? Governments buy coal or oil or natural gas and burn it to generate electricity, and then they sell the electricity to do any number of things (including charging EVs) but it's the Evil fossil fuel industry that's causing the damage.

 

You guys crack me up. 

Given your fact-free and childish dismissal of the IMS report, you got what you deserved.  If you reply with facts and reasoning, you'll get a different response.

 

Where has it been mandated that all motor vehicles be EV? China mandated that 40% of motor vehicles sold in 2030 be EV. In 2022 that number was over 25%.

In fact, around the world, EV sales are way ahead of what has been predicted.

 

Electric Car Adoption Soars Above Expert Predictions
Nobody really predicted that EV sales would be as high as they are right now.

https://insideevs.com/news/606721/ev-adoption-above-expectations/

 

Once again, you call something a lie, but you offer no facts to back it up. Please share a factual rebuttal to this

Fossil Fuel Subsidies

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies

 

Actually, that 97% figure is no longer correct. Now it's 99.9%

More than 99.9% of studies agree: Humans caused climate change

More than 99.9% of peer-reviewed scientific papers agree that climate change is mainly caused by humans, according to a new survey of 88,125 climate-related studies.

The research updates a similar 2013 paper revealing that 97% of studies published between 1991 and 2012 supported the idea that human activities are altering Earth’s climate. The current survey examines the literature published from 2012 to November 2020 to explore whether the consensus has changed.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/10/more-999-studies-agree-humans-caused-climate-change

 

As for your comments about the organizations burning the fuel causing damage,...now maybe you know of a magic wand that can instantly get the world off of fossil fuels and completely on renewables. If so, can you share it with the rest of us? There's a huge installed base of fossil fuel plants out there. So it's going to take a while to replace them all. But...

 

Renewables Take Lion’s Share of Global Power Additions in 2021

https://www.irena.org/News/pressreleases/2022/Apr/Renewables-Take-Lions-Share-of-Global-Power-Additions-in-2021

 

Coal plants are disappearing because even before the runup in coal prices they were being outcompeted by renewables.

Renewables Increasingly Beat Even Cheapest Coal Competitors on Cost

https://www.irena.org/news/pressreleases/2020/Jun/Renewables-Increasingly-Beat-Even-Cheapest-Coal-Competitors-on-Cost

https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-130-vf.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

[Boomer6969]

On 12/3/2022 at 3:35 AM, vinny41 said:

Actually your EV's could be considered Obsolete if you live in Switzerland'

Switzerland Considers Electric Vehicle Ban To Avoid Blackouts

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Switzerland-Considers-Electric-Vehicle-Ban-To-Avoid-Blackouts.html

And if you charge on French motorways the cost of energy for your EV will the same as Gazoline for an ICE.

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Boomer6969 said:

And if you charge on French motorways the cost of energy for your EV will the same as Gazoline for an ICE.

In the UK for long journeys Electric is more expensive than ICE

Electric cars now more costly than petrol for long journeys

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/electric-cars-now-costly-petrol-long-journeys/#:~:text=The cost of charging an,long journeys than petrol motors.

[KhunLA]

Glad I don't live in UK or FR, and main reason I never considered retiring there, as way too expensive, along with most of EU.

 

They'd have to triple the cost at CSs (charging stations) here in TH, to come close to the petrol cost of operating an ICE vs EV.

 

MG ZS ICE - 360kms cost ~ ฿1260 (฿35/L)

MG ZS EV - 360kms cost ~ ฿400 (฿8/kW) @ CS

฿250 @ home if not having solar - FREE if having

 

[Yellowtail]

20 hours ago, placeholder said:

Given your fact-free and childish dismissal of the IMS report, you got what you deserved.  If you reply with facts and reasoning, you'll get a different response.

 

Where has it been mandated that all motor vehicles be EV? China mandated that 40% of motor vehicles sold in 2030 be EV. In 2022 that number was over 25%.

In fact, around the world, EV sales are way ahead of what has been predicted.

 

Electric Car Adoption Soars Above Expert Predictions
Nobody really predicted that EV sales would be as high as they are right now.

https://insideevs.com/news/606721/ev-adoption-above-expectations/

 

Once again, you call something a lie, but you offer no facts to back it up. Please share a factual rebuttal to this

Fossil Fuel Subsidies

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies

 

Actually, that 97% figure is no longer correct. Now it's 99.9%

More than 99.9% of studies agree: Humans caused climate change

More than 99.9% of peer-reviewed scientific papers agree that climate change is mainly caused by humans, according to a new survey of 88,125 climate-related studies.

The research updates a similar 2013 paper revealing that 97% of studies published between 1991 and 2012 supported the idea that human activities are altering Earth’s climate. The current survey examines the literature published from 2012 to November 2020 to explore whether the consensus has changed.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/10/more-999-studies-agree-humans-caused-climate-change

 

As for your comments about the organizations burning the fuel causing damage,...now maybe you know of a magic wand that can instantly get the world off of fossil fuels and completely on renewables. If so, can you share it with the rest of us? There's a huge installed base of fossil fuel plants out there. So it's going to take a while to replace them all. But...

 

Renewables Take Lion’s Share of Global Power Additions in 2021

https://www.irena.org/News/pressreleases/2022/Apr/Renewables-Take-Lions-Share-of-Global-Power-Additions-in-2021

 

Coal plants are disappearing because even before the runup in coal prices they were being outcompeted by renewables.

Renewables Increasingly Beat Even Cheapest Coal Competitors on Cost

https://www.irena.org/news/pressreleases/2020/Jun/Renewables-Increasingly-Beat-Even-Cheapest-Coal-Competitors-on-Cost

https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-130-vf.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

Your links support what I said about fossil fuel subsidies and the 97% lie. 

 

Do you even read the stuff you link to? 

 

More Koolade over here!

[placeholder]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:14 PM, Yellowtail said:

Your links support what I said about fossil fuel subsidies and the 97% lie. 

 

Do you even read the stuff you link to? 

 

More Koolade over here!

More of the same. Claiming you have evidence that supports your case but offering nothing specific to back it up. You've got nothing.

[Rimmer]

A laughing emoticon being used as a derogatory comment has been removed.

This is trolling, the forum is not a cartoon forum, nor is it twitter or Line, if you disagree with a post then either move on or discuss.

[Longwood50]

Maybe electric cars are the future.  However I suggest all the problems associated with them have not been discovered and they will have some very unintended consequences. 

1. First off, to be successful there has to be a replacement technology for Lithium based batteries.  Lithium is a precious metal whose price has skyrocketed.  It is also extremely enviornmentally damaging to mine it.  It takes 500,000 gallons of water to extract 1 ton of lithium.  That is enough to make about 90 cars on average. Less if they are long range or large SUV's or Trucks

2. Electricity comes from someplace.  Right now the vast majority of electricity is still generated from Coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear.  Only a small amount is from Wind, Solar, or hydro electric and even those renewable sources have enviornmentally damaging characteristics, Wind Turbines are enviornmentally damaging to build and erect, Solar panels again use materials that are enviornmentally harmful, and hydro electric dams alter the fisheries.  The wind turbines, solar panels and even dams have a life expectancy and their disposal creates enviornmental waste as does the electric wire, and insultion used in the wire to transmit the electricity.

3. Cost, the cost of electricity will rise with demand for it.  There is already a shortage of elecricity in many areas and using todays cost to charge is probably not indicative of what it will be going forward.  Also the price of an electric car is already significantly higher and will be even more so as the price for lithium rises.  Insurance costs on electric cars is and will become increasingly unaffordable.  Tesla's are being totalled in the USA with under 15,000 Kilometers on them because of the exhorbitant cost to repair an electric car.  The vast majority of that cost is the replacement of the battery pack. 

4. Resale value on a electric car plummets precipitously.  This becomes even more pronounced as the car reaches the age or mileage where prospective owners recongize the limited time left on the car and the cost of replacing the battery pack.  

5. Lithium batteries are recyclable however at present most are not.  The cost of recycling the battery is greater than the cost of building one new.  Hence there will be unless this is solved a huge problem with what to do with spent batteries. 

If electric cars were such a great alternative you would not have to have governments mandating their use and prohibiting ICE in certain regions.  If they were such a cost effective alternative, you would not have to have governments giving rebates and subsidies in order to sell them.  The public would flock to them recognizing the value of them.  They don't and why because the financial cost of an electric car at least today both to operate and purchase does not stack up well against an ICE.   The only people who will financially come out ahead are those who live in urban areas and drive a huge amount of mileage each year.  Taxi Drivers in Bangkok or elsewhere would be a good example.  The typical driver putting 15,000 to 20,000 km per year will never reduce their electric vs. gasoline cost enough to offset the higher cost of purchase and depreciation on the EV.