ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

17 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Last year, the UK car of the year was the MG4 EV.

The UK has an official car of the year? That's hilarious.

 

The point of my link was to show that there are countless car of the year awards. Everyone organization that sells ad space to automotive manufacturers has one, as do many others. 

 

Not knocking the cars, probably great, but a car of the year award is pretty meaningless. 

 

 

[vinny41]

UK Worst private new car sales results for January since 2009

Having just said that poor consumer sales are more than just an EV problem, there’s no doubt that EV sales are making the problem worse. According to the SMMT, private new EV sales fell by 25% compared to last January, which is 9% worse than the overall fall in private new car sales. And this is the first month of the government’s new ZEV mandate coming into effect, which requires car companies’ total sales to be at least 22% EVs.

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/worst-private-new-car-sales-results-for-january-since-2009/

At the moment its mainly businesses that are buying expensive EV's the higher the price of the EV the potential is there to pay less tax 

If you're a business owner, you can also benefit considerably from tax savings on electric cars. Since April 2021, brand-new, zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

https://www.connectedkerb.com/stories-and-reports/understanding-electric-vehicle-tax-benefits-in-the-uk-driving-towards-savings/#:

[Pib]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

UK Worst private new car sales results for January since 2009

Having just said that poor consumer sales are more than just an EV problem, there’s no doubt that EV sales are making the problem worse. According to the SMMT, private new EV sales fell by 25% compared to last January, which is 9% worse than the overall fall in private new car sales. And this is the first month of the government’s new ZEV mandate coming into effect, which requires car companies’ total sales to be at least 22% EVs.

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/worst-private-new-car-sales-results-for-january-since-2009/

At the moment its mainly businesses that are buying expensive EV's the higher the price of the EV the potential is there to pay less tax 

If you're a business owner, you can also benefit considerably from tax savings on electric cars. Since April 2021, brand-new, zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

https://www.connectedkerb.com/stories-and-reports/understanding-electric-vehicle-tax-benefits-in-the-uk-driving-towards-savings/#:

 

 

Seems from looking at the overall/total Jan stats in the www.thecarexpert article Jan 2024 sales were significantly better than Jan 2023 stats, especially for BEV and PHEV.  Car manufacturers selling more than last year.   

 

But the article focuses on a negative sub-stat for private buy vehicles to catch attention....yeap, the private buy stats are down for  various reasons mentioned in the article....probably economic reasons causing the drop and not due people not buying more EVs since the chart below still shows strong overall EV sales growth....much better percentage-wise than for ICEV.

[ExpatOilWorker]

A weekend DIY project for the believers.

 

[HighPriority]

27 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

A weekend DIY project for the believers.

 

Geez youre a wag... 555.

We all know that even Somchai would get more panels than that on there...

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, HighPriority said:

Geez youre a wag... 555.

We all know that even Somchai would get more panels than that on there...

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

12 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

Only in America !!

 

At a price of $4000 and claimed to be able to generate up to 6 kWh daily it’s estimated to have a ROI of in excess of 11 years.

 

https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1871/another-solar-tesla-attempt-and-why-it-wont-work

 

Meanwhile in Thailand:

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

EVs win the race to zero value.

 

[JBChiangRai]

29 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs win the race to zero value.

 

 

So a petrol car only drops by 4% and a diesel car by only 3%... I don't think so

[macahoom]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs win the race to zero value.

 

 

I really wish you would stop posting all these negative things about EVs. I have two of them in the garage and now, because of you, I can't sleep at night worrying about the terrible mistake I've made.

 

What a silly-billy I am!

[KhunLA]

49 minutes ago, macahoom said:

 

I really wish you would stop posting all these negative things about EVs. I have two of them in the garage and now, because of you, I can't sleep at night worrying about the terrible mistake I've made.

 

What a silly-billy I am!

Much appreciated, the thoughtfulness and care AN members have for our safety.   Thanks to them, I knew to avoid the puddles on the road, still there from a light overnight rain.   Imagine the car fire that would have happened if the car got wet.

 

Later we went out to dinner, and I wasn't paying attention, and hit a speed bump.   Luckily the car didn't explode, and there was a spot to pull over and park.   We exited as fast as possible and waited the 6 hrs that people recommend, for safety sake, before getting back in and returning home.

 

Got home around midnight and just enjoyed that quality time sitting roadside, releasing how lucky we were.   You never know when the end will come when driving EVs.

 

PRAISE BUDDHA

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs win the race to zero value.

 

 

I just had another sleepless night, I spent all night in the garage looking for any sign of smoke in case these darned EV's catch fire.

 

This morning I called the buyer of my daughter's MG EP+ to offer him a refund, as clearly I charged him too much, thanks to @ExpatOilWorker it's clear I should have allowed more depreciation.

[Pib]

3 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

EVs win the race to zero value.

 

 

A webpage link for above chart might add some creditability & context, but right now I simply can't believe a diesel or petrol vehicle only depreciates less than 5% per year or after around 4 years an EV is worth almost nothing..  Heck, petrol/diesel  vehicles (or any type) depreciate more than  5% the day you drive them off the new car lot simply because they are now a used/pre-owner vehicle.

 

 

Below webpage I think gives a good overall view of vehicle depreciation over it's lifetime.

https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/car-depreciation-guide

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

 

A webpage link for above chart might add some creditability & context, but right now I simply can't believe a diesel or petrol vehicle only depreciates less than 5% per year or after around 4 years an EV is worth almost nothing..  Heck, petrol/diesel  vehicles (or any type) depreciate more than  5% the day you drive them off the new car lot simply because they are now a used/pre-owner vehicle.

 

 

Below webpage I think gives a good overall view of vehicle depreciation over it's lifetime.

https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/car-depreciation-guide

 

I can't find a link to the original chart, but I agree with Pib, the chart is overly optimistic in regards to the value of petrol and diesel cars.

While searching I did however come across this, so the message might still be true.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

 

A webpage link for above chart might add some creditability & context, but right now I simply can't believe a diesel or petrol vehicle only depreciates less than 5% per year or after around 4 years an EV is worth almost nothing..  Heck, petrol/diesel  vehicles (or any type) depreciate more than  5% the day you drive them off the new car lot simply because they are now a used/pre-owner vehicle.

 

 

Below webpage I think gives a good overall view of vehicle depreciation over it's lifetime.

https://motorway.co.uk/sell-my-car/guides/car-depreciation-guide

 

Found it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/comment/2024/02/06/biden-green-evs-electric-cars-target-energy-madness/

[transam]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Much appreciated, the thoughtfulness and care AN members have for our safety.   Thanks to them, I knew to avoid the puddles on the road, still there from a light overnight rain.   Imagine the car fire that would have happened if the car got wet.

 

Later we went out to dinner, and I wasn't paying attention, and hit a speed bump.   Luckily the car didn't explode, and there was a spot to pull over and park.   We exited as fast as possible and waited the 6 hrs that people recommend, for safety sake, before getting back in and returning home.

 

Got home around midnight and just enjoyed that quality time sitting roadside, releasing how lucky we were.   You never know when the end will come when driving EVs.

 

PRAISE BUDDHA

Your last sentence, how true, well done............😉

[Pib]

31 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Found it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/comment/2024/02/06/biden-green-evs-electric-cars-target-energy-madness/

The author of this article is David Blackmon who is a fossil fuel evangelist, anti-green energy type person.   40 years experience in the "oil and gas" business...he's even based in Texas the land of fossil fuel.   The great, great majority of his articles are anti-green energy, pro fossil fuel.   

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/d/da-de/david-blackmon/

https://dailycaller.com/author/dblackmon/

 

 

[vinny41]

The West’s humiliating electric car climbdown has begun

Ambitious plans for an electrification-led industrial revolution are in full-scale retreat

There is nothing wrong with EVs themselves. They are often great as run-arounds for dense urban environments, and as long as the raw materials are sourced correctly, and the chargers are not powered by coal-burning generators, they are probably a little better for the environment than the petrol version.

If people want them, then that’s great. The trouble with the industry right now is that demand is falling because the vehicles cost far more than anyone expected,

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/02/west-humiliating-electric-car-climbdown-begun/

 

Byd seal is approx B800,000 more expensive in the UK compared to the entry level model in Thailand

You can almost buy 2 MG4  in Thailand for 1 MG4 in the UK 

MG4 is the cheapest electric car in the UK at £27K  equals B1,225,403

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The West’s humiliating electric car climbdown has begun

Ambitious plans for an electrification-led industrial revolution are in full-scale retreat

There is nothing wrong with EVs themselves. They are often great as run-arounds for dense urban environments, and as long as the raw materials are sourced correctly, and the chargers are not powered by coal-burning generators, they are probably a little better for the environment than the petrol version.

If people want them, then that’s great. The trouble with the industry right now is that demand is falling because the vehicles cost far more than anyone expected,

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/02/02/west-humiliating-electric-car-climbdown-begun/

 

Byd seal is approx B800,000 more expensive in the UK compared to the entry level model in Thailand

You can almost buy 2 MG4  in Thailand for 1 MG4 in the UK 

MG4 is the cheapest electric car in the UK at £27K  equals B1,225,403

 

Sorry but I think that is mostly nonsense.

 

You can't compare prices in the UK compared with Thailand.

 

The MG4 is more expensive in the UK because there is an import tax on Chinese vehicles.  Even so, next to the Tesla Model Y the MG4 was the next best EV seller in the UK last year achieving almost 10% market share amongst EV's.  It is probably the current best value for money EV in the UK.

 

The UK & US to some extent, represent different challenges.  Chinese EV imports will disrupt the local market and we are going to hear more misleading headlines like "The West’s humiliating electric car climbdown has begun" when it would be better written as "Consumers shun Western EV's in favour of Chinese EV's" or "Chinese EV sales continue to accelerate whilst Western EV sales decline" and ultimately "Western Auto manufacturers file for bankruptcy-Chinese Ev manufacturers to blame".

 

Demand is not falling in the UK, it is growing, I suggest you look at the sales figures published by the SMMT during this year to see what happens.  BEV sales are up 21% this year on last year.

UK new car registration data, UK car market - SMMT

 

 

 

[vinny41]

48 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Sorry but I think that is mostly nonsense.

 

You can't compare prices in the UK compared with Thailand.

 

The MG4 is more expensive in the UK because there is an import tax on Chinese vehicles.  Even so, next to the Tesla Model Y the MG4 was the next best EV seller in the UK last year achieving almost 10% market share amongst EV's.  It is probably the current best value for money EV in the UK.

 

The UK & US to some extent, represent different challenges.  Chinese EV imports will disrupt the local market and we are going to hear more misleading headlines like "The West’s humiliating electric car climbdown has begun" when it would be better written as "Consumers shun Western EV's in favour of Chinese EV's" or "Chinese EV sales continue to accelerate whilst Western EV sales decline" and ultimately "Western Auto manufacturers file for bankruptcy-Chinese Ev manufacturers to blame".

 

Demand is not falling in the UK, it is growing, I suggest you look at the sales figures published by the SMMT during this year to see what happens.  BEV sales are up 21% this year on last year.

UK new car registration data, UK car market - SMMT

 

 

 

For years this forum has been comparing Thailand pricing on Thai built  cars versus non Thai built cars sold outside Thailand  and normally pointing out that cars are so much cheaper in USA and other countries

Would we see the growth in BEV in Thailand if the cheapest BEV was B1,225,403 and a Byd Seal starting price was B2.2 million baht

Chinese cars imported into the UK are currently subject to tariffs of 10% under World Trade Organisation rules.

 

This is what Britons bought in January 2024:

Petrol: 81,905

Battery electric vehicle (BEV): 20,935

Hybrid: 18,744

Plug-in hybrid: 11,944

Diesel: 9348

 Demand for electric company cars grew by 42% in January 2024, compared with a 25% slump in private demand for EVs.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/ev-sales-figures-uk/

At the moment its mainly businesses that are buying expensive EV's the higher the price of the EV the potential is there to pay less tax 

If you're a business owner, you can also benefit considerably from tax savings on electric cars. Since April 2021, brand-new, zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

https://www.connectedkerb.com/stories-and-reports/understanding-electric-vehicle-tax-benefits-in-the-uk-driving-towards-savings/#:

 

So clearly if your a business owner and your accountant informs you that your on the hook to pay £100,000 to HMRC in taxes for profits that your business has produced or if you buy an EV you can reduce that amount to zero assuming the price of the EV is £100,000 or more you can see why business owners are buying EV's

According to the SMMT

Last year also saw more battery electric vehicle (BEV) sales than the previous two years combined, with 314,687 new cars registered - 50,000 more than in 2022.

Still, BEVs comprised just 16.5% of total registrations, marginally lower than 16.6% a year earlier.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-records-best-year-new-car-sales-since-pandemic-smmt-2024-01-05/#:~:text=Last year also saw more,than 16.6% a year earlier.

Bottom line for private buyers EV's are to expensive compared to ICE vehicles hence the declined in EV ownership from private buyers

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

The author of this article is David Blackmon who is a fossil fuel evangelist, anti-green energy type person.   40 years experience in the "oil and gas" business...he's even based in Texas the land of fossil fuel.   The great, great majority of his articles are anti-green energy, pro fossil fuel.   

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/d/da-de/david-blackmon/

https://dailycaller.com/author/dblackmon/

 

 

What you are saying is there are others out there, I am not alone?

[Gweiloman]

15 hours ago, vinny41 said:

For years this forum has been comparing Thailand pricing on Thai built  cars versus non Thai built cars sold outside Thailand  and normally pointing out that cars are so much cheaper in USA and other countries

Would we see the growth in BEV in Thailand if the cheapest BEV was B1,225,403 and a Byd Seal starting price was B2.2 million baht

Chinese cars imported into the UK are currently subject to tariffs of 10% under World Trade Organisation rules.

 

This is what Britons bought in January 2024:

Petrol: 81,905

Battery electric vehicle (BEV): 20,935

Hybrid: 18,744

Plug-in hybrid: 11,944

Diesel: 9348

 Demand for electric company cars grew by 42% in January 2024, compared with a 25% slump in private demand for EVs.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/ev-sales-figures-uk/

At the moment its mainly businesses that are buying expensive EV's the higher the price of the EV the potential is there to pay less tax 

If you're a business owner, you can also benefit considerably from tax savings on electric cars. Since April 2021, brand-new, zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

https://www.connectedkerb.com/stories-and-reports/understanding-electric-vehicle-tax-benefits-in-the-uk-driving-towards-savings/#:

 

So clearly if your a business owner and your accountant informs you that your on the hook to pay £100,000 to HMRC in taxes for profits that your business has produced or if you buy an EV you can reduce that amount to zero assuming the price of the EV is £100,000 or more you can see why business owners are buying EV's

According to the SMMT

Last year also saw more battery electric vehicle (BEV) sales than the previous two years combined, with 314,687 new cars registered - 50,000 more than in 2022.

Still, BEVs comprised just 16.5% of total registrations, marginally lower than 16.6% a year earlier.

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-records-best-year-new-car-sales-since-pandemic-smmt-2024-01-05/#:~:text=Last year also saw more,than 16.6% a year earlier.

Bottom line for private buyers EV's are to expensive compared to ICE vehicles hence the declined in EV ownership from private buyers

I’m afraid you not completely correct. Business car sales only account for around 2,000 cars out of 142k sold. The reason private sales are down is because the UK consumer prefers to lease than to buy. Fleet sales account for 90k cars in Jan 24.

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

 

[Gweiloman]

14 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

What you are saying is there are others out there, I am not alone?

Sadly, yes.

 

why are you anti-EV, anti clean air in urban environments?

[JBChiangRai]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

The fact is simply this.  The EV market share of new registrations is increasing month on month, anything saying otherwise is simply deflection.

 

People like EV's, in Thailand they buy or finance them, in the UK they lease or PCP them (they then appear as fleet purchases).

[retarius]

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/mr-bean-was-right-and-so-was-toyota

 

Comment from US.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, retarius said:

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/mr-bean-was-right-and-so-was-toyota

 

Comment from US.

 

Overall, we rate ZeroHedge an extreme right-biased conspiracy website based on the promotion of false/misleading/debunked information that routinely denigrates the left.

ZeroHedge - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)

 

Rowan Atkinson & Toyoda both made these comments quite a while ago, there is nothing new here.

 

Toyoda's stance on Hydrogen (H2) is wrong, there will always be a place for H2 alongside BEV but consumers will prefer BEV because it will always be 5 times cheaper per km than H2.  It has to be, because you (ideally) use sunlight, wind or wave power to produce electricity.  At this point you can either ...

 

Put it in the power grid and plug your car in and charge it directly, or (and here's the rub)...

 

You electrolyse water and produce Hydrogen and Oxygen, losses are about 50% (they have to be because you're producing Oxygen too).  Then you can compress it using more electricity, store it in tanks, transfer it to tankers (pumping it with more electricity).  Drive those tankers to H2 stations (using H2 to drive the vehicle).  Pump it into the Fuel Stations tanks (using more electricity).  Then pump it into your car (using more electricity).  Then convert it to electricity in a Fuel Cell (very inefficient also wastes energy in the form of heat).

 

So the consumer will make his choice on economics and market conditions, he will prefer the cheap running cost of BEV, so H2 cars will have to be a lot cheaper to tempt him.

 

QED, H2 will not happen the way Toyoda said.

 

[retarius]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Overall, we rate ZeroHedge an extreme right-biased conspiracy website based on the promotion of false/misleading/debunked information that routinely denigrates the left.

ZeroHedge - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (mediabiasfactcheck.com)

 

Rowan Atkinson & Toyoda both made these comments quite a while ago, there is nothing new here.

 

Toyoda's stance on Hydrogen (H2) is wrong, there will always be a place for H2 alongside BEV but consumers will prefer BEV because it will always be 5 times cheaper per km than H2.  It has to be, because you (ideally) use sunlight, wind or wave power to produce electricity.  At this point you can either ...

 

Put it in the power grid and plug your car in and charge it directly, or (and here's the rub)...

 

You electrolyse water and produce Hydrogen and Oxygen, losses are about 50% (they have to be because you're producing Oxygen too).  Then you can compress it using more electricity, store it in tanks, transfer it to tankers (pumping it with more electricity).  Drive those tankers to H2 stations (using H2 to drive the vehicle).  Pump it into the Fuel Stations tanks (using more electricity).  Then pump it into your car (using more electricity).  Then convert it to electricity in a Fuel Cell (very inefficient also wastes energy in the form of heat).

 

So the consumer will make his choice on economics and market conditions, he will prefer the cheap running cost of BEV, so H2 cars will have to be a lot cheaper to tempt him.

 

QED, H2 will not happen the way Toyoda said.

 

Attack the points Mr Bean raised, not ZH. ZH is a financial site not an extreme right wing site. It published news you will not see elsewhere, because of establishment censorship, read it, you might learn something. Your assertion that Mr Bean is wrong about H2 is based on what exactly? That you have a counter-view and always have the last word on science? If it is so simple to dispel in a few line why have Toyota not employed you? . I'd back Toyota over you. They have a record of extreme success.....how about you?  

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, retarius said:

Attack the points Mr Bean raised, not ZH. ZH is a financial site not an extreme right wing site. It published news you will not see elsewhere, because of establishment censorship, read it, you might learn something. Your assertion that Mr Bean is wrong about H2 is based on what exactly? That you have a counter-view and always have the last word on science? If it is so simple to dispel in a few line why have Toyota not employed you? . I'd back Toyota over you. They have a record of extreme success.....how about you?  

 

I prefer to take Media Fact Check's view on bias rather than yours.

 

I didn't assert Rowan was wrong about H2, I asserted Mr Toyoda was wrong about H2 and I explained why.

 

Toyota couldn't have employed me, firstly I wasn't available and secondly I was busy building my computer company and floating it on the Alternative Investment Market in the UK, I am biased but I consider that extreme success allowing me to retire to Thailand in my 40's.

 

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I’m afraid you not completely correct. Business car sales only account for around 2,000 cars out of 142k sold. The reason private sales are down is because the UK consumer prefers to lease than to buy. Fleet sales account for 90k cars in Jan 24.

 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

 

Demand for electric vehicles falls in first half of 2023

The share of personal contract hire (PCH) sales enquiries for all electric vehicles (hybrid, plugin and battery) fell from 34.6% in the first-half of 2022 to 22.9% this year. That represented a 33% reduction in personal demand for electric vehicles 

https://leasingbrokernews.co.uk/demand-for-electric-vehicles-falls-in-first-half-of-2023/

 

Is Britain facing an EV car finance bombshell? How electric car owners who take out PCP loans risk paying far MORE than vehicle is worth due to collapse of second-hand market

Britons spent some £17bn buying new cars in the year ending October 2023

An estimated 80 per cent of these purchases were financed on PCP deals 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-12841839/PCP-electric-car-EV-finance-bombshell.html

It would appear PCP on EV's is not such a good option

[vinny41]

Toyota US

The company did sell 15,000 pure EVs in the U.S. in 2023, but they also sold 40,000 plug-in hybrids and more than 600,000 non-rechargeable hybrids out of total U.S. sales of 2,248,477 vehicles, a 6% increase from 2022 levels

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2024/02/13/mr_bean_was_right__and_so_was_toyota_1011632.html

I think Toyota is correct when they stated BEV will not get more than 30% share of the total market