Why Unvaccinated People Are Being Denied Organ Transplants

[new2here]

To me, I think one of the results … I’ll call it a “benefit” .. of this whole Covid, vaccinations etc issue is that going forward there will be more … conversations, discussions about what is legal, ethical and realistic in terms of where does public health policy, social order, business regulations and the larger governmental regulations all intersect. 

 

that to me, is a good thing .. so that the next time something happens like this (and it’s my opinion only that it’s a “when” and not “if”) there will be perhaps better clarity as to what will happen, what is the legal limits of various parties and what worked well and didn’t work so well in the past. 

[Scott]

26 minutes ago, IAMHERE said:

I thought 'they' had already admitted that the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting Covid; the vaccine just makes the symptoms less.  

People who are the recipients of a transplant have to take extra precautions to prevent infections -- many of them wear a mask whenever they are out and about.  They stay clear of people who have a simple cold.  The difference with Covid is that there is a substantial period of asymptomatic spread.  

 

Being vaccinated will provide them with some antibodies that will certainly help.  Without them, they really have no defense against Covid (or most infections for that matter).   

 

No vaccine is 100% effective.   

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Sure, less deadly on an individual basis, but more deadly overall.  More deaths now than at the height of Delta.  And more disruptions.  Thus, Omicron is hardly mild.

An organ transplant to an individual is not an 'overall' decision though.

 

The true nature of those deaths is somewhat open to debate to say the least.

 

Now over 50% of hospitalizations in the UK are for other complaints, and covid19 entirely incidental, often completely symptomless.  I was speaking to a nurse in another country who told me that her hospital had seen an alarming increase of admissions among young children.  When I enquired further it appeared that in fact they were there for other reasons, and that Omicron had only been discovered because of mandatory testing.  

 

Perspective is required imo.  We simply can't have one standard of reasonableness for one disease only.  Imagine if those same parameters were set for ..... anything!  Life would grind to a halt. Even a nasty cold would be the cause for lockdown and would be named on death certificates. 

 

I can understand why someone, from Taiwan or New Zealand say, might be behind the curve.

 

Nevertheless, I for one would be much happier if boosters had been rolled out quicker and were freely available now for over 60's and the vulnerable.  It's been poor.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by mommysboy

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

An organ transplant to an individual is not an 'overall' decision though.

 

The true nature of those deaths is somewhat open to debate to say the least.

 

Now over 50% of hospitalizations are for other complaints, and covid19 entirely incidental, often completely symptomless.

 

Perspective is required imo.  We simply can't have one standard of reasonableness for one disease only.  Imagine if those same parameters were set for ..... anything!  Life would grind to a halt. Even a nasty cold would be the cause for lockdown and would be named on death certificates. 

 

I can understand why someone, from Taiwan or New Zealand say, might be behind the curve.

 

 

The true nature of the deaths in the US is not open to debate, to say the least.  Sad some try to downplay the significance of the pandemic.

 

Sure, some go to the hospital with a broken arm, are found out to have covid, but what's your point?  If they die of covid, that's the cause of death.  Not a broken arm.

 

This is a once in a lifetime pandemic, hopefully.  So yes, we can have one standard just for this virus.  Like nations have been doing for 2 years now.

 

Don't compare a cold with covid.  That's ridiculous.

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

The true nature of the deaths in the US is not open to debate, to say the least.  Sad some try to downplay the significance of the pandemic.

 

Sure, some go to the hospital with a broken arm, are found out to have covid, but what's your point?  If they die of covid, that's the cause of death.  Not a broken arm.

 

This is a once in a lifetime pandemic, hopefully.  So yes, we can have one standard just for this virus.  Like nations have been doing for 2 years now.

 

Don't compare a cold with covid.  That's ridiculous.

I haven't followed the course of the pandemic in the US, and rely for most of my knowledge from the UK and Europe. If the USA is out of step it could be to a general low level of public health, and inadequate hospital services particularly to the poor, vaccine coverage for instance, together with a general disregard for individual health.  

 

"Sure, some go to the hospital with a broken arm, are found out to have covid, but what's your point?  If they die of covid, that's the cause of death.  Not a broken arm."

 

' broken arm'  I'm not talking about broken arms but am talking about a range of serious  chronic diseases coincident with old age.  That's my point!

'If they die of covid'- they are dying of the serious disease they were admitted for in the main. That's my point.

 

Some unfortunates are dying purely of covid that is true, and this is in the main wholly avoidable because of vaccinations.  I wouldn't like to see global policy decided because of the utter stupidity of a troublesome minority of one particular country.  That's my point!

[Jeffr2]

53 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I haven't followed the course of the pandemic in the US, and rely for most of my knowledge from the UK and Europe. If the USA is out of step it could be to a general low level of public health, and inadequate hospital services particularly to the poor, vaccine coverage for instance, together with a general disregard for individual health.  

 

"Sure, some go to the hospital with a broken arm, are found out to have covid, but what's your point?  If they die of covid, that's the cause of death.  Not a broken arm."

 

' broken arm'  I'm not talking about broken arms but am talking about a range of serious  chronic diseases coincident with old age.  That's my point!

'If they die of covid'- they are dying of the serious disease they were admitted for in the main. That's my point.

 

Some unfortunates are dying purely of covid that is true, and this is in the main wholly avoidable because of vaccinations.  I wouldn't like to see global policy decided because of the utter stupidity of a troublesome minority of one particular country.  That's my point!

The level of public health in the US isn't much different from the UK or Europe.  Same with hospital services.  Vaccine coverage isn't good, mainly due to politics and misinformation.

 

But some are admitted with a serious disease, find out they have covid, it gets worse, and that's the cause of death.

 

It's complicated.  But in the end, covid is our enemy.  Time to end this pandemic and get every one vaccinated and boosted.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

I haven't followed the course of the pandemic in the US, and rely for most of my knowledge from the UK and Europe. If the USA is out of step it could be to a general low level of public health, and inadequate hospital services particularly to the poor, vaccine coverage for instance, together with a general disregard for individual health.  

 

"Sure, some go to the hospital with a broken arm, are found out to have covid, but what's your point?  If they die of covid, that's the cause of death.  Not a broken arm."

 

' broken arm'  I'm not talking about broken arms but am talking about a range of serious  chronic diseases coincident with old age.  That's my point!

'If they die of covid'- they are dying of the serious disease they were admitted for in the main. That's my point.

 

Some unfortunates are dying purely of covid that is true, and this is in the main wholly avoidable because of vaccinations.  I wouldn't like to see global policy decided because of the utter stupidity of a troublesome minority of one particular country.  That's my point!

Actually, there's a very strong correlation to a voter's political orientation. As polls have shown, Republicans are far less likely to get vaccinated than Democrats. And if you do a geogrpaphic breakdown of the results of the 2020 elections, they correlate highly with covid rates of mortality

[LukKrueng]

14 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

no, it's not just one of many viruses. It's a once in a lifetime thing

Care to explain this statement? Do you mean if you're vaxed you can't get infected/get sick/die from it or to if you got it once you're immune for life? Because both those arguments were proven wrong 

It do you mean there has never been not there will even be another such devostating deadly and dangerous virus? Because that is also not correct.

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

The level of public health in the US isn't much different from the UK or Europe.  Same with hospital services.  Vaccine coverage isn't good, mainly due to politics and misinformation.

 

But some are admitted with a serious disease, find out they have covid, it gets worse, and that's the cause of death.

 

It's complicated.  But in the end, covid is our enemy.  Time to end this pandemic and get every one vaccinated and boosted.

I agree.  It's vital at this stage that everyone is vaccinated and if possible boosted.  This gives some immediate protection from symptomatic infection, but more importantly longer lasting T cell protection which could be enough to protect from further variants.  Most ICU patients who are purely suffering from covid19 have not been vaccinated, not everyone but most.  Those guilty of promoting misinformation over the net should be criminally liable in my view, though there is a place for honest critique.

[cardinalblue]

Why waste good organs on poor decision making people?

 

send them to Molakai….

[JayBird]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Not really reasons to deny transplants though.... unless the no vaccine no transplant rule applies to all vaccines.  I don't understand why people won't get vaccinated though.

 

Possibly, this is another example how accepted axioms and practices seemed to have been turned upside down by covid, which after all is just one of many viruses.

Organs are rare.  There is a waiting list.  A wide variety of criteria is used to determine who gets this and lives vs the others who will die.

 

One of the criteria is probability of survival after transplant.

 

If person A has a 90% chance, and B has a 40% chance, it will go to A.

 

In this case, the argument is that an unvaccinated recipient has a higher chance of dying after the procedure than a vaccinated recipient.  So it makes sense to give the organ to the individual with the greater chance of survival.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

Care to explain this statement? Do you mean if you're vaxed you can't get infected/get sick/die from it or to if you got it once you're immune for life? Because both those arguments were proven wrong 

It do you mean there has never been not there will even be another such devostating deadly and dangerous virus? Because that is also not correct.

Ummm...I said it's a once in a life time thing.  Didn't mention vaccinations.  Why try to read so much into it????

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, cardinalblue said:

Why waste good organs on poor decision making people?

 

send them to Molakai….

Molakai isn't what it use to be!  My friend lives there and says it's beautiful!! LOL

[rickudon]

Still plenty of people on here who think Covid-19, especially the Omicron variant, is 'not a serious disease'. Sorry to disillusion you, but it is. In the UK, last year, excess death rates were above normal for 9 out of the 12 months; even in the last 3 months of the year, excess death rate was about 5%, which was approximately the same as the actual Covid-19 reported deaths. Deaths were higher in January this year so we can also expect excess death rate to be higher. The number of cases also suggest that the majority of people in the UK will catch Covid every year. An unvaccinated, immune suppressed transplant patient would probably have a poor outcome if infected - Transplant operations and subsequent medicines required are expensive, so you are not going to waste resources on someone who is unlikely to live very long. 

[LukKrueng]

18 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Ummm...I said it's a once in a life time thing.  Didn't mention vaccinations.  Why try to read so much into it????

So please explain what do you mean by "once in a lifetime thing*

[chilly07]

Makes great sense to vaccinate against everything as well as ceasing lifestyle risks well before transplant as strong immunosuppressant drugs will be needed after transplant to reduce risk of rejection

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, rickudon said:

Still plenty of people on here who think Covid-19, especially the Omicron variant, is 'not a serious disease'. Sorry to disillusion you, but it is. In the UK, last year, excess death rates were above normal for 9 out of the 12 months; even in the last 3 months of the year, excess death rate was about 5%, which was approximately the same as the actual Covid-19 reported deaths. Deaths were higher in January this year so we can also expect excess death rate to be higher. The number of cases also suggest that the majority of people in the UK will catch Covid every year. An unvaccinated, immune suppressed transplant patient would probably have a poor outcome if infected - Transplant operations and subsequent medicines required are expensive, so you are not going to waste resources on someone who is unlikely to live very long. 

It is markedly less serious than previous variants and overall not at all serious on an individual basis.  The problem is that this variant is highly infectious, so that millions perhaps tens of millions get infected within a very short time frame, so even though the death rate per million is low this can result in a significant number of deaths across a population.  It should also be noted that deaths are mainly confined to the unvaccinated and those who sadly are vulnerable.  It's really upsetting that we can't protect the latter imo but I think specific cures are coming online now.  To a vaccinated person in otherwise reasonable health it really isn't a serious disease- it was, but really isn't now.  We can't define a disease by the way we are currently doing so- or everything becomes dangerous, even colds.

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

It is markedly less serious than previous variants and overall not at all serious on an individual basis.  The problem is that this variant is highly infectious, so that millions perhaps tens of millions get infected within a very short time frame, so even though the death rate per million is low this can result in a significant number of deaths across a population.  It should also be noted that deaths are mainly confined to the unvaccinated and those who sadly are vulnerable.  It's really upsetting that we can't protect the latter imo but I think specific cures are coming online now.  To a vaccinated person in otherwise reasonable health it really isn't a serious disease- it was, but really isn't now.  We can't define a disease by the way we are currently doing so- or everything becomes dangerous, even colds.

Agreed. But it is serious if you have an immediate need for a hospital bed now. They are all taken by unvaccinated patients. This just happened one of my friends. Serious!